Dead Sounding Edwards

[Elow]

I own a 350 HB with an oft bell, which is probably the best "playing" trombone i own. Great response, perfect slots, everything is great, except the sound. The sound is so boring in any environment that isnt a large hall. I swapped leadpipes to a Brassark 42O in copper which really helped, but the sound is still not something im proud of. The horn actually sounds much better on recording https://www.dropbox.com/s/v9eq7n9ctwd3a ... s.wav?dl=0 first run was bad, second was okay. My dotted eighth - sixteenth figures arent too good, im delaying the sixteenth, but im too lazy to rerecord. Anyways, anyone have a bell suggestion to liven the sound up? I wanted to put a bach bell on it, but edwards wont respond to my 20 emails about getting the fitting parts :/

[Burgerbob]

What mouthpiece?

[Elow]

DE XT 104G+8

[GabrielRice]

The absolute last word I would use to describe the sound Toby makes is "boring."

That doesn't mean his trombone is the right trombone for you.

[Burgerbob]

It sounds pretty good to me in the recording. It may not be the actual sound but the feedback you get that seems "boring."

[WilliamLang]

i've found that edwards are perfect for consistancy in sound, and like you've heard, it ends up sounding good on recordings. there qualities are nothing to sneeze at, and if you are looking for a professional orchestra job in a lot of cases it can be a good thing. they give you a really strong baseline of performance, and an equally strong musician can bring even more out of it with experience and knowledge.

i also understand the "boring" qualifier you might be feeling, though as was said, it's not like Toby is a boring player in any way. mouthpieces can help, but just swapping a different bell on it? in my opinion just try a new horn at this point rather than trying to have the best of all possible worlds. use the edwards in large halls and orchestral settings and maybe something else for chamber or solo playing. no shame in that.

[elmsandr]

First to answer the real question... I agree with the previous comments here that the result may just be the feedback to you; that was certainly my experience with an Edwards bass. Sounded great on recordings. Section mates liked it, but I could never figure out what I was doing or felt like I was working way harder than I needed to. Put a Bach bell on it, that was a partial fix for me, but eventually just went full Bach... My challenges were different, YMMV.

Secondly,

.... I wanted to put a bach bell on it, but edwards wont respond to my 20 emails about getting the fitting parts :/

Stop with the emails... 21 won't do anything that 20 did not. A phone call is probably a better way to get a response, but they may not be entirely receptive to the concept. They aren't in the business of making other horns fit theirs. Anyway, you work(ed?) for a repair shop, have them order some Getzen ones from Allied through your shop. I like the diamond shaped flange of the Getzen parts better anyway.

Cheers,
Andy

[harrisonreed]

Yeah, the sound is fine on that recording. So .... What do you mean it sounds dead? It doesn't. You can't be like "this sounds dead, except the microphone made it sound really good". It's usually the opposite of that.

If you don't like how something sounds behind the bell, it's a feedback issue. Maybe you need an unsoldered bell, but honestly it's probably not really the way to go. Learn to use the pillars to get a better response in a less than ideal room. Play in better rooms -- if you're not going to perform in a closet, don't practice in one unless that's your only option.

Also, since you mention rooms. The room is really important. That room you recorded in is dead. There is no reverb in there. If you are looking to liven up the sound in a dead room like that, no bell will do it. Only the room can give you warmth and reverb. You said yourself, it sounds great in a great room -- that's because you're hearing what you actually sound like, and not the muffled dampened sound of a crappy, square, carpeted room. Edward Scissor Hands apparently can build trombones, they just don't build them to be played in a bedroom or practice cube.

Don't forget that is entirely possibly to build a trombone that sounds great from behind the bell, but sounds like garbage out in front.

[LeoInFL]

Have you tried a leadpipe change? My main horn started out as a Getzen 3047AFR (rose bell, yellow brass main tuning slide, T2 sterling leadpipe) that gave me a broad, rich tone that I was happy with for several years. After getting my bass (I was mainly using my Getzen on 3rd/bass book), I swapped out the parts for a more 'tenor' sound (Getzen yellow bell, Edwards rose main tuning slide, nickel leadpipe) and it's just what I wanted.

I tried several sterling leadpipes (Alessi, T2, T3) but none worked for me, but I found the answer in a nickel silver leadpipe. I don't know if Edwards ever offered a nickel one in the past, so this may be one of those Mt Vernon 42 leadpipes with an Edwards collar on it. The nickel leadpipe gives my horn the interesting/complex/cutting tone that I'd been striving for.

You might want to try a leadpipe made out of a different metal.

[Kdanielsen]

Don’t drive yourself crazy with sound in a crappy room. Know what a good sound feels like, and trust it. This might be hard.

I heard all sorts of people in school who’s sounds was gorgeous from a foot behind the bell in a practice room, but who disappeared in a big room.

[Matt K]

Interestingly enough, I have a similar experience with some of the large bore Yamaha horns. I played on a Peter Sullivan YSL8820 for a few years into my undergrad and then later borrowed one while one of my horns was being worked on. As I progressed, I just really didn't like the way the horn felt. But everyone always told me I sounded great on it. Well, not everyone, but definitely after I did a year of grad school in particular. Some horns just don't give you the feedback you want. It's a balancing act to get something that sounds good in front of the bell and behind the bell.

Fortunately, if others are telling you you sound good, then you're probably in good shape because you're getting the more important metric out of the way. You also have a horn that to some degree can change that... it has the harmonic pillar, right? People who have those horns typically report that you can tighten up articulations and whatnot by playing around with those. Especially th enickel ones from what I gather, in situations like yours.

The Bach bell may help. I could certainly see it with the way they're built, although who knows how it would work with the rest of the horn. But it probably wouldn't be the first thing I'd reach for in this situation. Another Edwards bell might be easier to come by and actually be not that much more expensive.

[Burgerbob]

But everyone always told me I sounded great on it. Some horns just don't give you the feedback you want. It's a balancing act to get something that sounds good in front of the bell and behind the bell.

I actually have a similar experience here. I use a Yamaha 830 at work. It is relatively easy to play, easy to center, predictable intonation, low range works, not hard to blend with small tenors. And I don't enjoy it at all. It's impressively boring. But, I get compliments on my sound all the time. Sometimes I'll bring one of my horns and it's WAY more fun for me, but the ensemble doesn't notice such a massive difference.

I personally try to only own instruments that I really enjoy playing, and I've tossed away some good horns that were not enjoyable in the past (including a T-350!).

[whitbey]

When I record myself, the sound is very different if the mic is next to me or in front of me on my Edwards horns.
The Conn alto and the Bach bass recordings are more the same.
And the Pbone is better on my side of the bell.
I use the Pbone at open houses. I am a real estate guy.
Get someone who knows to listen to you.

[castrubone]

I own a 350 HB with an oft bell, which is probably the best "playing" trombone i own. Great response, perfect slots, everything is great, except the sound. The sound is so boring in any environment that isnt a large hall. I swapped leadpipes to a Brassark 42O in copper which really helped, but the sound is still not something im proud of. The horn actually sounds much better on recording https://www.dropbox.com/s/v9eq7n9ctwd3a ... s.wav?dl=0 first run was bad, second was okay. My dotted eighth - sixteenth figures arent too good, im delaying the sixteenth, but im too lazy to rerecord. Anyways, anyone have a bell suggestion to liven the sound up? I wanted to put a bach bell on it, but edwards wont respond to my 20 emails about getting the fitting parts :/

It's impossible to hear any of the issues you describe from that recording. The mic sounds extremely close to the bell. Put the mic at least 6-8 feet in front of you and record in a large room. As for Edwards, the biggest gripe people always have about them is they sound boring. Great players play them and they're generally well made. If you want something that has more of a Bach sound then I'd go get a Bach. Not being flippant, but you'll never get that sound from an Edwards. Many a fine player have tried and ended up going back to playing a Bach of some variety.

IMO Edwards makes incredibly consistent, even, sounding instruments at the expense of character. Maybe other brands like Bach are a little more wonky to play, but it's a more interesting sound to my ear.

[harrisonreed]

It's impossible to hear any of the issues you describe from that recording. The mic sounds extremely close to the bell. Put the mic at least 6-8 feet in front of you and record in a large room. As for Edwards, the biggest gripe people always have about them is they sound boring. Great players play them and they're generally well made. If you want something that has more of a Bach sound then I'd go get a Bach. Not being flippant, but you'll never get that sound from an Edwards. Many a fine player have tried and ended up going back to playing a Bach of some variety.

IMO Edwards makes incredibly consistent, even, sounding instruments at the expense of character. Maybe other brands like Bach are a little more wonky to play, but it's a more interesting sound to my ear.

At a certain level, the horn isn't what makes someone sound interesting or not. The someone is what makes them sound interesting or not. It's just a tool.

At a different level, the same someone can sound different or achieve different effects on a different horn. Like the 88H, for example, that sound you can get when you really push it -- that ain't gonna happen easily on other designs.

On the highest level, you have someone like Toby Oft, who has Edwards design an entire horn for him to suit his playing approach. I've played that model -- there is absolutely nothing dead or boring about it.

The days of blanket statements about Edwards being boring ended when they pretty much stopped making the mega-heavy bells that were heat treated like swords, with axial valves. That was ... What, 20 years ago now?

[GabrielRice]

The days of blanket statements about Edwards being boring ended when they pretty much stopped making the mega-heavy bells that were heat treated like swords, with axial valves. That was ... What, 20 years ago now?

Well...you can still get one if you want.

[harrisonreed]

The days of blanket statements about Edwards being boring ended when they pretty much stopped making the mega-heavy bells that were heat treated like swords, with axial valves. That was ... What, 20 years ago now?

Well...you can still get one if you want.

True

[pjanda1]

As others said, I suspect it is a combination of things leading to the way you perceive the sound. But just in case you don't know the horn's history, keep in mind some folks can make a badly damaged bell look new. I once played a very "dead" sounding Edwards belonging to a buddy. He had been over the handlebars on his bike with it in a gig bag. The bell ended up several inches shorter. He had the bell "fixed" just to see what it would play like. It was not good. He bought a new bell.

Paul

[timothy42b]

If you play commercial gigs, you will wear earplugs to protect your hearing, and even without plugs it will be way too loud in the venue to hear your own sound.

Calibrate your ears to the sound on the recording, and trust that it sounds good.

[Elow]

I found a new practice space in a parking garage, and im honestly really loving this horn now. The colors that i can hear in the parking garage is really nice. A very dark sound, but very nice. This horn really loves big spaces, sucks that i can only hear the real sound in a parking garage. I can make a recording tomorrow probably

[Elow]

Listening to markeys tenor album probably helped too