Trying to figure out the 78h

[hyperbolica]

I love my 79h. Really a perfect instrument. Why would I want a 78h? I don't know the answer to that, but I've got one, and I want to love it, but just don't. It's light, wide slide, medium bore - the specs are all stuff I love, but I have a really hard time playing it. I need some help understanding this model.

I've owned at least 3 78hs. One of them I cannibalized to repair a 79h, which is the horn I use for most stuff. All the rest of them just felt too light or bright or whatever. I've got a friend who plays 78h as his only tenor, and he has this tendency to get ripping bright sometimes. I've heard people used to use these for orchestral stuff, but I can't see it. The sound doesn't seem to have any weight to it. Thin and bright.

I can play a DE D cup and make it sound like a small bore, or an F cup and it responds like a bigger horn. But if I use an E cup, it's just not very stable. Lip slur exercises are difficult, inaccurate, feel very unstable.

This horn doesn't have any damage, and doesn't look like it has had any major repair history. Slide works great. I don't think there's anything different about the one I have now and ones I have had in the past.

Is it just too light to feel stable like a Bach 36? The extra weight on the 79h might be what it takes to stabilize it.

32h and 48h both have a nicer sound/feel than the 78h to me. I want the 78h to feel like a 32h big brother with a reasonable width slide - somewhere between the 32h and 8h on the Conn scale. I can get warmer sound out of my 48h, which has the range to be one of the most brutal horns out there. Swapping slides between a 32h and a 78h gives you something even worse than the 78h. 78h reminds me of old Getzens - just a thin ripping sound. Or the Kanstul 760 that was almost frightening to play.

I know there are people out there who love this model. Has anyone wrestled with it to tame it? Any insight or relevant experience? Is it just time to trade it for an 8h or Bach 36?

[CalgaryTbone]

I've had similar experiences with 78H's in the past. I had one from the 30's or so in great condition (silver) that I ended up selling because I could never get comfortable on it. I also found similar issues with a lot of 8H's, but there were more of them that worked for me - a lot of them felt very "light" though.

The 8H thing changed for me when I found a fantastic horn from the early 50's - thin responsive bell and heavy slide with thicker braces than what you usually expect from Conns. I played that horn for quite a while. I tried a 78H once in a shop when the orchestra was in Montreal on tour. It had the same kind of hand grip and bracing as my 8H and a thin yellow bell and played great - like a slightly brighter, more nimble version of my 8H that would have been great for lighter playing. I always regretted not buying that horn.

Both of those great horns had the "half moon" art deco style of engraving, and were produced without slide locks. I've found a lot of Conns from that era at places like Dillons, etc. that I've liked over the years. That 78H was the only one that I've ever seen where the slide looked like the 8H/88H slides with a .522 bore however. The serial number and model designation was on the slide, so it wasn't a Frankenhorn.

Jim Scott

[Chatname]

For those of us stuck in the Bach universe; would you mind educating us about the Conns?
I know about 88h and 8h of course and I play a 36H alto which is great. But all these other numbers, I don’t have a clue. No disrespect, seriously curious. What are 78s and 79s? Which are the other essential Conns?

[Posaunus]

For those of us stuck in the Bach universe; would you mind educating us about the Conns?
What are 78s and 79s? Which are the other essential Conns?

Conn Loyalist - everything you want to know about Conn. An invaluable resource to Conn nerds.
See:
https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/ConnTrombone.html

In particular:
https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/Conn78H1965image.html
https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/Conn79H1969image.html

[hyperbolica]

For those of us stuck in the Bach universe; would you mind educating us about the Conns?
I know about 88h and 8h of course and I play a 36H alto which is great. But all these other numbers, I don’t have a clue. No disrespect, seriously curious. What are 78s and 79s? Which are the other essential Conns?

Sorry.
88h = classic 547w/f (Bach 42b size)
8h = straight 547
48h = 500 bore with nickel bell (fancy 6h)
79h = 522 bore w/f (36b size)
78h = 522 bore straight
32h = 500/522 dual bore narrow slide, small bell, close bell, Burkle design

The specs are important of course, as well as the history, but the feel/sound of how the horns play is really what makes these instruments so beloved.

88h = standard orchestral horn from late 50s through early 70s. Very flexible horn, lighter than 42b. My horn from 7th grade on through conservatory
8h = predecessor of 88h (just add valve). I owned an GenII from 2003 with the light bell that was really fantastic. Design from early 1900s
48h = to me this is the classic military band horn. Monstrously loud, beautiful looks, light slide, ergonomic touches, the best of the small bore Conns, came out in the 1950s.
78h = another early design, design varied with different bell sizes, sometimes added a valve, used in orchestra a lot in ~1950s
79h = I think this came available in the early 1960s, based in 78h
32h = big brother to the 30h, bell close to player for mute changes, popular from the 1930s dance bands, very hard to classify this horn. My favorite for Bordogni and ballads. Has that smoky, grainy Conn sound, but many people complain about the narrow slide.

[JLivi]

I don't have much experience with the 78h, but I did just purchase the 78h with the valve that was posted to the forum. It should be arriving on Wednesday and I can't wait to start playing it. Based on your post, I'm really hoping it plays more like a 79h than a 78h

I'm not sure if this will help, but I also have a 74h (straight medium bore with a 8.5" rose bell) and it plays great, even though I'll be looking to sell it soon! I know it doesn't get much love on this forum, but I really love it. The only reason I ended up with the 79h is because I want a medium bore with a valve. It better suits my needs. I feel like the 74h has a nice full sound, and I imagine that it's because of the bigger bell. It's really hard to split the sound, and I put a lot of air into the horn. I'm a pretty loud player, or so I'm told You might like an 8h with a sl2525 slide, but I'm not sure. Maybe that'll solve your problems, and get you the sound you're looking for.

What are 78s and 79s? Which are the other essential Conns?

Medium bore trombones with an 8" bell. 78 is straight, and the 79 has a valve.

[Chatname]

For those of us stuck in the Bach universe; would you mind educating us about the Conns?
I know about 88h and 8h of course and I play a 36H alto which is great. But all these other numbers, I don’t have a clue. No disrespect, seriously curious. What are 78s and 79s? Which are the other essential Conns?

Sorry.
88h = classic 547w/f (Bach 42b size)
8h = straight 547
48h = 500 bore with nickel bell (fancy 6h)
79h = 522 bore w/f (36b size)
78h = 522 bore straight
32h = 500/522 dual bore narrow slide, small bell, close bell, Burkle design

The specs are important of course, as well as the history, but the feel/sound of how the horns play is really what makes these instruments so beloved.

88h = standard orchestral horn from late 50s through early 70s. Very flexible horn, lighter than 42b. My horn from 7th grade on through conservatory
8h = predecessor of 88h (just add valve). I owned an GenII from 2003 with the light bell that was really fantastic. Design from early 1900s
48h = to me this is the classic military band horn. Monstrously loud, beautiful looks, light slide, ergonomic touches, the best of the small bore Conns, came out in the 1950s.
78h = another early design, design varied with different bell sizes, sometimes added a valve, used in orchestra a lot in ~1950s
79h = I think this came available in the early 1960s, based in 78h
32h = big brother to the 30h, bell close to player for mute changes, popular from the 1930s dance bands, very hard to classify this horn. My favorite for Bordogni and ballads. Has that smoky, grainy Conn sound, but many people complain about the narrow slide.

Great answer, most appreciated! Thank you for educating me!

[hyperbolica]

I don't have much experience with the 78h, but I did just purchase the 78h with the valve that was posted to the forum. It should be arriving on Wednesday and I can't wait to start playing it. Based on your post, I'm really hoping it plays more like a 79h than a 78h

Yeah, sorry to spook you. I'd be willing to bet that's a beautiful horn. I have a feeling the extra weight of the valve is what makes the 79h special. The only thing I'd look out for is the placement of the trigger vs the top slide brace. That's one of the differences between 78 and 79. The 79 brace is further down. So a 79 slide on a 78 would work for big hands and a 78 slide on a 79 would work for very small hands.

I'm not sure if this will help, but I also have a 74h (straight medium bore with a 8.5" rose bell) and it plays great, even though I'll be looking to sell it soon! I know it doesn't get much love on this forum, but I really love it. The only reason I ended up with the 79h is because I want a medium bore with a valve. It better suits my needs. I feel like the 74h has a nice full sound, and I imagine that it's because of the bigger bell. It's really hard to split the sound, and I put a lot of air into the horn. I'm a pretty loud player, or so I'm told You might like an 8h with a sl2525 slide, but I'm not sure. Maybe that'll solve your problems, and get you the sound you're looking for.

I have a 525 slide for my 88h, and used to play it with an 8h bell. Great small orchestral combination. The big bell gives it a broader sound. 74h might be a heavier bell than the Elhart 8h (which is like a new 8hT - T for thin).

[hyperbolica]

I've had similar experiences with 78H's in the past. I had one from the 30's or so in great condition (silver) that I ended up selling because I could never get comfortable on it. I also found similar issues with a lot of 8H's, but there were more of them that worked for me - a lot of them felt very "light" though.

The 8H thing changed for me when I found a fantastic horn from the early 50's - thin responsive bell and heavy slide with thicker braces than what you usually expect from Conns. I played that horn for quite a while. I tried a 78H once in a shop when the orchestra was in Montreal on tour. It had the same kind of hand grip and bracing as my 8H and a thin yellow bell and played great - like a slightly brighter, more nimble version of my 8H that would have been great for lighter playing. I always regretted not buying that horn.

Both of those great horns had the "half moon" art deco style of engraving, and were produced without slide locks. I've found a lot of Conns from that era at places like Dillons, etc. that I've liked over the years. That 78H was the only one that I've ever seen where the slide looked like the 8H/88H slides with a .522 bore however. The serial number and model designation was on the slide, so it wasn't a Frankenhorn.

Jim Scott

Wow, thank you very much for that. It means something coming from you. Yeah, the half moon horns were from before '61, I think, back to at least the 30s maybe earlier. Maybe I should trade the 78 for an 8h bell. I've liked that combination in the past (8h w/525 slide), I was just hoping for a smaller bell. I did have a custom 8h with an 8" bell at one time, but it was made after they started making heavier 8/88h bells, so even though it was smaller in diameter, the thicker material really didn't do anything for me.

[ithinknot]

Seems like the rotor air resistance and mass/inertial resistance of the 79H are what you're missing.

Try an extra counterweight on the rear bell brace (or just moving the weight there from the TS). And try the E3 shank, even though it's 'wrong'.

Then stop buying 78Hs

[hyperbolica]

Seems like the rotor air resistance and mass/inertial resistance of the 79H are what you're missing.

Try an extra counterweight on the rear bell brace (or just moving the weight there from the TS). And try the E3 shank, even though it's 'wrong'.

Then stop buying 78Hs

By the time I get done making a 78h playable, I'll have another 79.

There are a few horns that I keep buying and then remembering why I sold the last one. 78h, 32h, 6h, 3b, Bach 36... It's not just 78s that I have to stop buying. I just have to be happy with a few horns. 88, 79, 48, some sort of bass, and some valve horn, and then maybe a tuba.

[ithinknot]

By the time I get done making a 78h playable, I'll have another 79.

That's alright then - they're worth more

[CalgaryTbone]

I will throw out one more observation - the rotor/straight horn thing is part of the equation I think. However, that great 8H that I was talking about had had the bell braces cut to accept a detachable valve section by the previous owner. I generally liked playing on the straight set-up, but when those times came up that I needed the valve and used it for a week or two at work, I found myself becoming more comfortable on the valve set-up, and then after going back, the same thing happened in reverse. I think that as a player, you become accustomed to the "blow" of the horn one way, and there is an adjustment period when you change it. Adjusting to a 78H might involve playing it exclusively for a longer time period, but who knows?

Jim Scott

[hyperbolica]

Adjusting to a 78H might involve playing it exclusively for a longer time period, b;ut who knows?

Yes, I'm familiar with this syndrome. It leads me to keep thinking "I'm almost there, just one more mouthpiece/horn/leadpipe/slide lube/shiny gadget"...

My problem is that I change a lot. Being a touch moody, I pick instruments according to my mood, and I'm either dark and brooding or capricious and wanton. Mahler or Tchaikovsky. I should just sell them all but one. I used to do that and was perfectly happy. Some how I opened this pandora's box, and have been overwhelmed by my own curiosity.

According to Derksen , maybe I should be playing a coprion 10h, described thusly:

"There is a reason for their rarity. Coprion bells are too excitable. Dull and woofy when not pushed, transitioning abruptly to ringing all over the place when pushed hard. The manic depressives of the Conn family. They are OK at about mf, though. I mean... if you are going to play a Conn-like horn, it's mainly because they are elegant and a little... reticent about their emotions compared to Bachs and Kings, right? Restrainedly strong. Slightly understated. Why let bipolar Uncle Cope out of the house?"

Bipolar Uncle Cope indeed.

Thanks for your insight, Jim! Maybe what I need most is counseling!

[Thrawn22]

I use my 78H for Orchestra as well as smaller chamber stuff. As long as i don't put the petal to the metal it blends fine. I can get it to sound like a big 6H if i want it to, but the key for me keeping it in check is to keep a bigger sound concept in my head. It's a horn I've found i need to finesse.

That being said, I've found that each of my horns has a personality all their own and I just need to know what each horn likes to do. My '57 8H has a lighter bell and had some slide work done making it great for solo work but a bit to bright for section work. My '68 bell/ 2547 slide combo gets a big sound that blends well no matter what part. I could go on and on but i will spare you all.

You may have to adjust your sound concept to the horn instead of the other way around (assuming you haven't done so already).

In any case, if you decide you don't dig your 78H I could always use a spare.

[hyperbolica]

I use my 78H for Orchestra... .

I probably could learn to play it, but I'm too old to change that groove. I've got other horns that ride that groove pretty well. I'm leaning towards releasing it. Nice horn, just doesn't fit what I do.

If you're serious about that offer, I'll trade you for an 8h or 8h bell.

[Trav1s]

I have found similar experiences between my 79H and the two 78H's that I owned. My 79H is a 1969 horn with a Rotax valve installed (with minimal modification) by Benn Hannson. It has a really light, responsive bell and the hand slide has some mass to it. I use it for everything from concert band to solo work to brass quintet. With the Doug Elliott LT102/LT-D/D4 combo the sound is full and rich. It's my favorite of all of the horns I have owned.

The 1963 and 1965 78Hs (or maybe they were '65 and '67) both felt much lighter in sound and presence than the 79H. The 78H's also seem to like shallower cups than the 79H. The DE setup I use on the 79H felt like too much for the '65 78H I just sold. I tried to like both but never could find my sound on them - perhaps that was because I was looking for the 78H to sound like my 79H. Somewhere I have saved side-by-side clips of the '65 78H and the 79H using the same mouthpiece. The guy that purchased the 78H could tell the difference even on the iPhone videos I sent for reference. I think the language of "big 6H" is a very accurate way to describe the sound.

Then there is the unicorn of my collection - 1972 Conn 80H which is essentially a 78H with the 8" red brass bell
Benn Hannson is pretty sure it is Abilene horn based on braces and some other things. He's currently rebuilding the slide with parts from a donor Elkhart 78H. It will be set up with a removable leadpipe while the making the repairs. The 80H bell is heavier/thicker than the 79H. Before repairs, the 80H slide felt more like the 79H slide than either of the 78H slides. It works well with the DE LT102/LT-D/D4 combo but a move to the C+ cup brings a bit more zip to the sound. This is a fun horn for solo work and I cannot wait to try the upgraded slide with the bell.

I had a 1939 32H that I wanted to like but could not befriend. I like the sound but the response just felt odd to me. I tried many different mouthpiece combos and the best ended up being the DE LT102/C+D2 I use on my '37 24H. The upper range was beautiful and the sound was surprisingly full but the dual bore slide is not my thing. And that narrow slide... felt narrower than the 24H slide but never compared them next to each other.

Then there is the fun of swapping the 79H slide with the various bell sections including the 7.5" bell on the 32H. Swapping the 32H slide on the other bell sections was fun too but the quirks of the slide were still present. I really liked the 32H slide on the 80H 8" red brass bell but could not justify keeping it.

So after all of this I would say try 'em out and play what you like. In my case, the 79H and the unicorn 80H are keepers. Now to get my hands on a late 60's 88H, save up my money, and have Benn do a Rotax conversion on it.

[hyperbolica]

Now to get my hands on a late 60's 88H, save up my money, and have Benn do a Rotax conversion on it.

Thanks for your perspective. I think we have similar taste in horns. There are more 525 bore fans these days than there used to be.

Watch out with that 88h. You may wind up selling your 79h. My 88h feels even more lively than my 79. Make sure to get one where the bell hasn't been all repaired to hell and back. I think the bell is prime part of the 88h sound. Believe it or not, my 79 has a darker sound, which I would not expect. More compact, yes, but darker, no.

Anyway, thanks for the post. I'd kind of like to hear the other side of the story from a 78h advocate... Bueler?

[timbone]

Nice read here. I have to say I lusted after a 78H hopefully in red brass but never found it. I did find an 82H in red brass and really never looked back. Now it is a TIS horn so most players will look the other way regarding balance but for me, I had five TIS horns already so no problem! The thing for me about this horn is that the slide becomes the sound engine and the bell with minimal bracing- the speaker. This particular horn was made in ‘24. Its an option! And what a sound! All red brass and nickel!

[hyperbolica]

... . I did find an 82H in red brass and really never looked back. Now it is a TIS horn so most players will look the other way regarding balance but for me, I had five TIS horns already so no problem! The thing for me about this horn is that the slide becomes the sound engine and the bell with minimal bracing- the speaker. This particular horn was made in ‘24. Its an option! And what a sound! All red brass and nickel!

Wow, do you have pix of that? It sounds beautiful! I keep looking for one, but I've never seen one for sale when I had play money available. Is there also a similar style 42h or am I dreaming?

[hyperbolica]

Thx to whoever said the 78h is just a big 6h. I put in a small mouthpiece (DE C cup) and it stopped fighting so much. I had been trying D-G cups. Treat it like a small bore with tight articulations and allow it to be a little bright. If you give it too much gas, it really gets annoyingly bright. But treat it right and it becomes really playful. My only problem is that I don't need a big 6h. I was hoping for a small 8h.

Still, it feels good to understand where the horn wants to go. I could tell it was a great horn, I just didn't know what it needed. Now more than ever I'm tempted to put a 508 tube on the top slide, let that hidden small bore come out of it's shell.

[Jimkinkella]

... . I did find an 82H in red brass and really never looked back. Now it is a TIS horn so most players will look the other way regarding balance but for me, I had five TIS horns already so no problem! The thing for me about this horn is that the slide becomes the sound engine and the bell with minimal bracing- the speaker. This particular horn was made in ‘24. Its an option! And what a sound! All red brass and nickel!

Wow, do you have pix of that? It sounds beautiful! I keep looking for one, but I've never seen one for sale when I had play money available. Is there also a similar style 42h or am I dreaming?

There is a 42H, the 82 feels like a tis 8h with a smaller bore, the 42 feels like a lot like a tis 78h

[dukesboneman]

I played 78H`s for around 25 years , it was my go to Horn (My only horn for a long time)
I had 4 different ones and they all played a little different.
I should say that I played them with a Bach 7C mouthpiece. I didn`t like the focus with a bigger mouthpiece.
I had a 1928 satin silver one that played very easy but the slide was really really heavy.
Next I bought a 1957 model that had been overhauled Light weight and played so easy
Then I bought thru the International Musician (Union Paper) a light weight silver plated 78H with a removable leadpipe.
That slide on the 1928 bell was awesome Played that for years.
When Giardinelli moved to Syracuse, NY I went to buy a mouthpiece but found a Red Brass 78H Bell that was special ordered and never picked up
The silver slide aND that red Brass bell was magic!!!!!!!!!!!!
I wish I still had that horn