Experience with the Brass Ark 1919 8H pipe in an 8H?

[pjanda1]

Hi All,

I recently picked up a '69 Elkhart 8H that I love. My inclination is to leave it alone and enjoy it. It is in incredible original condition and I've been looking for a nice one for a long, long time. I have a Schilke 51 with a Remington shank ordered and am currently able to play it with an old long shank 51C4. (HMU if you've got a spare long shank 51).

But ... as I was buying a 32H from Noah Gladstone, I noticed his leadpipes. It would be awfully handy to just be able to use the same mouthpieces I use on my Edwards. I'm also seeking a very "efficient" set up, as my Edwards dates to an era in my life when I was a much more serious trombone player. The 8H not only feels easier, but it sounds PRETTY. Not to mention looks cool.

Who has played this leadpipe? Do red brass leadpipes shift in tone color like red brass bells? (That is, could it be too much of a good thing?) Any comments about intonation? High range? How easy/efficient is it? Hoes does it compare to a stock late-Elkhart pipe? A stock Edwards pipe? (I have spares of those, too.)

Paul

[paulyg]

Forget pulling the pipe, if the horn plays great. Better to get another slide with a trashed pipe that you can experiment with. A BIG part of why the Elkhart Conns play so great is the leadpipe.

Edit: FWIW Doug Elliott's revised G8 shank with a remington taper is just about the perfect match for one of these old 8H/88Hs- it's intoxicating.

[Rusty]

I have a late 60s Elkhart 88h that I’ve recently started using the Brassark 8H pipe in Rose brass with. It’s a great match!

I had the original leadpipe pulled and upper inner tube replaced, unfortunately the original pipe had rotted through and couldn’t be saved. A good tech should be able to save your pipe if it’s in good nick.

I played a Brassark MV42 yellow pipe for a while that was an improvement in eveness, but overall too tight a blow. Since then I’ve tried a few Shires pipes with the #3 feeling the best.

The Brassark 8H pipe is a step up again and is by far the best match for the horn. Way better than the stock pipe in my horn. It’s very open and free blowing, slightly less open than a Shires 3, and has a great even sound and response. Upper and lower ranges are great and I’d say you do have more colour and nuance available to you, not as much as a 32h copper pipe though.

I’d highly recommend it, all the Brassark pipes I’ve played on Noah’s recommendations have been excellent. I also play a yellow BH62 pipe on my Elkhart 62h bass.

If you can get your hands on a Shires #3, that will give you some idea of the feel of it. I play a fairly small mouthpiece on that horn, a Brassark DR solo piece, which helps give a focus clarity to the sound too.

[ithinknot]

My inclination is to leave it alone and enjoy it. It is in incredible original condition and I've been looking for a nice one for a long, long time.

Your inclination is correct.

I had the original leadpipe pulled and upper inner tube replaced, unfortunately the original pipe had rotted through and couldn’t be saved. A good tech should be able to save your pipe if it’s in good nick.

... but no good tech should promise this, even if they're nearly always 'lucky'. You don't know exactly how good the condition is until it's out... or in pieces. Even if you get it out with the leadpipe and tube just fine, it won't feel exactly the same press-fit as it did soldered. Probably not enough to matter, but enough that if you're happy with it, leave it alone.

Anyway, as well as Doug's shank options, you can have Bob Reeves cut any existing mouthpiece for sleeves, so Remington needn't be a problem.

Forget pulling the pipe, if the horn plays great. Better to get another slide with a trashed pipe that you can experiment with.

Yes. So just buy something like this: https://www.thebrass-exchange.com/conte ... e-leadpipe and then play as much as you want. A $500 slide isn't too bad when you're talking about $250 pipes

[Rusty]

My inclination is to leave it alone and enjoy it. It is in incredible original condition and I've been looking for a nice one for a long, long time.

Your inclination is correct.

I had the original leadpipe pulled and upper inner tube replaced, unfortunately the original pipe had rotted through and couldn’t be saved. A good tech should be able to save your pipe if it’s in good nick.

... but no good tech should promise this, even if they're nearly always 'lucky'. You don't know exactly how good the condition is until it's out... or in pieces. Even if you get it out with the leadpipe and tube just fine, it won't feel exactly the same press-fit as it did soldered. Probably not enough to matter, but enough that if you're happy with it, leave it alone.

Anyway, as well as Doug's shank options, you can have Bob Reeves cut any existing mouthpiece for sleeves, so Remington needn't be a problem.

Forget pulling the pipe, if the horn plays great. Better to get another slide with a trashed pipe that you can experiment with.

Yes. So just buy something like this: https://www.thebrass-exchange.com/conte ... e-leadpipe and then play as much as you want. A $500 slide isn't too bad when you're talking about $250 pipes

You’re right, it’s never a 100% guarantee you’ll save the original pipe and a good tech wouldn’t promise that. I just think you wouldn’t regret it, even if you lost the original pipe. The Brassark pipe is from an 8H and based off a pretty special pipe by all accounts. Noah has seen and played more amazing horns than most people and is an Elkhart Conn player himself and uses this pipe in his own horn.

In my case, my horn was well used and I suspected the pipe wasn’t that great an example, even though it was playable. If your horn plays great and you’re 100% happy then maybe it’s not worth the risk to you.

[Matt K]

Despite being a tinkerer, I try to avoid taking the torch to vintage horns like that in particular. The idea of getting a compatible more contemporary slide is good and honestly you aren't too far off from the work you'd have doing pricewise. If I did want to do it, I'd definitely send it to someone who has a lot of experience with trombones in particular and removing leadpipes. The chance that you'd permanently ruin the horn is probably pretty low unless you had a unique pipe in there to begin with because there are really good "duplicate" pipes out there now... Another thing to consider is how much corrosion etc. is in the pipe as it is. If it's not in good shape it might be worth yanking anyway.

[pjanda1]

Thanks for the thoughts! I got confirmation that my Schilke 51 Remington shank shipped today (ETA had been unknown) so I'll try that first.

As far as rot issues, it is a double edged sword on this instrument. The horn has been played VERY little in its 50+ years, so it would probably pull cleanly. But that also makes it sadder to butcher!

This really is a fascinating instrument to play. Such a pretty tone color at all dynamics. So easy to play softly and so much more loud dynamic range than I expected for a "light" horn. Incredibly articulate--it takes very little work to have a huge range of articulations. The upper register slots so well. My wife commented that in all registers, the sound is more focused, which I didn't expect based on descriptions of unsoldered rim wires. (Never had an unsoldered bell on my Edwards).

I have plenty of experience with vintage jazz-sized trombones, including Conns. But it is neat to feel a big horn resonate the same way. Less even-feeling than my Edwards--sure. (Or, at least, after thousands of hours of playing the Edwards and getting used to it, it seems that way). But this instrument is "alive" in a whole different way.

This horn wants me to find a quintet. And maybe a similar 88H for when I can't live without the valve.

Paul
(And a note--this horn really likes the Sauer brace.)