daCarbo trombones??

[Digidog]

Has anyone here played a daCarbo trombone of any kind?

I've seen their large bore, quarter valve model, at the Thomann web site, and just now I saw their small bore model as well - and I got really curious about their characteristics. What are they like to play? How do they sound?

Does anybody know anything?

[Finetales]

I played the straight .508 extensively at NAMM (extensively meaning not only played it at the booth but ended up using it on a NAMM performance that night...long story). It was a great player! Compared to my 3B it was a little harder to redline but it was very agile, very easy to play, and projected well. As for sound, well...it sounded like a trombone. Pretty neutral like a 3B, and no quality of sound lost vs. a brass horn (at least from my side of the bell).

The trumpets played nicely as well!

[Burgerbob]

I have a friend on the forum with one. He's had it for a few years now. Not sure if he uses it at all... Lately he's been on a beater 3B.

[mbarbier]

I've played the large and medium bore (I think it was a medium bore- it's been a few years). They play super efficiently, but don't really vibrate in your hands/give you much feedback. Because of that combination I was just constantly overshooting high notes, which is something that I'd imagine is easy to get used to, but felt like a thing that would be a liability/disconcerting in ensemble playing (or larger halls) when that feedback helps compensate for not being able to necessarily hear oneself as well. But a super nicely made horn.

[IdoMeshulam]

I have a friend on the forum with one. He's had it for a few years now. Not sure if he uses it at all... Lately he's been on a beater 3B.

That’d be me. I’ve had one since late 2017 and I definitely played it a bunch, mainly on out of town gigs and tours but also on jazz gigs, musicals and other situations. Mine has the .500 bore slide and the larger 8.5” bell from the .508 model.

It’s absolutely spectacular, extremely efficient and has this nice fat dark sound with super clear articulations. I actually get a pretty good feedback behind the bell when I play it, even in loud situations. It’s one of the only horns that I can pick up and feel really good on right away even if I’m not in shape at all.

Problem is (for me of course), when compared to my BAC which is my main horn, it’s different enough to throw me off, especially due to the square crooks on the slide and tuning slide. It definitely has more of a “Bach” feel to it rather than the “King” feel I’m used to on my BAC, the partials just line up differently on each horn. That being said, both horns are very different than a standard Bach or a King, that BAC plays like nothing I’ve ever played on, perhaps this is why I’m having a hard time adjusting to other instruments.

As Aidan said, lately I’ve been messing around with an old 70's 3B for when I need a lighter sound and feel and it seems to be working better for me as a backup/lead horn. It’s not nearly as nice and efficient as the DaCarbo but it doesn’t messes with my face/air as much when compared to the BAC I usually play on.

[pompatus]

Has anyone had enough experience with both to make a comparison between the daCarbo and Butler trombones?

(We all knew the question was coming...)

[IdoMeshulam]

Has anyone had enough experience with both to make a comparison between the daCarbo and Butler trombones?

Yup, played them back to back about 4 years ago at ITF. Totally different animals.

The DaCarbo is not exactly light, the bell is actually rather heavy and the slide weighs about the same as a normal Bach LT slide. It seems like the entire concept behind the design of the horn was to make something that gives you maximum sound for minimum effort, the focus here is definitely more on acoustics rather than lightness. The Butler on the other hand is definitely designed to be very lightweight but doesn’t sound (at least to my ears) as substantial as the DaCarbo.

[Digidog]

Thanks for informative and enlightening replies everyone! I am very much tempted to try one small bore (0.500, 7,75") out, but I already have a custom order for a horn in place, so I have to settle that for now.

It seems like daCarbo horns are appreciated, but I have yet to see or meet any musicians using them on a regular basis for gigs or recording.

I do not question the statements given here, but they seem to have been in production for some years now and if they really are as good as said, I think I would have met or seen someone using a daCarbo horn. Are they in regular use by musicians in the U.S. (trombonists and trumpeters) or are they still struggling to be recognized as a brand? Or is the old conservatism of practice at play here?

[Finetales]

I do not question the statements given here, but they seem to have been in production for some years now and if they really are as good as said, I think I would have met or seen someone using a daCarbo horn. Are they in regular use by musicians in the U.S. (trombonists and trumpeters) or are they still struggling to be recognized as a brand? Or is the old conservatism of practice at play here?

I would imagine a big reason you don't see them is the price. For the price of a daCarbo trombone without a valve, you could get a Shires or M&W WITH a valve custom made for you. For the price of a daCarbo trombone WITH a valve, you could get a Shires or M&W bass trombone custom made for you. While the daCarbo horns play great and their carbon construction definitely provides some unique benefits, nearly all players would go for the boutique modular horn even if the equivalent daCarbo cost the same, let alone the significantly more that it actually does cost.

[harrisonreed]

They seem like a specific and good compromise/solution for people with a specific problem. And expensive. But if I had some industry where every ounce counted I'd be looking at them too.

[Digidog]

They seem like a specific and good compromise/solution for people with a specific problem. And expensive.

What problem?

...but...

...not for lack of money, right?

[harrisonreed]

They seem like a specific and good compromise/solution for people with a specific problem. And expensive.

What problem?

...but...

...not for lack of money, right?

People with weak arm syndrome.

[Burgerbob]

People with weak arm syndrome.

That's probably not the best way to put that.

[Matt K]

Hey, I resemble that statement!

[Digidog]

What problem?

...but...

...not for lack of money, right?

People with weak arm syndrome.

But that makes no sense, since @IdoMeshulam said that daCarbo's aren't light, or am I completely missing something here?

I also looked up daCarbo's web site, and their instruments being light doesn't seem to be one of their marketing arguments.

[BGuttman]

Butler carbon fiber trombones are light. I don't know how daCarbo makes theirs and if it makes them light as well.

[harrisonreed]

People with weak arm syndrome.

That's probably not the best way to put that.

Correction:

People with differently strengthed arms**

Are the DaCarbos not light? I thought that was the reason people were going nuts for carbon fiber.

[IdoMeshulam]

From what I understand, Andreas Keller, the designer of the DaCarbo line of instruments is a material scientist and an acoustic specialist. The bells on these horns are designed and engineered with efficiency and acoustics in mind, some parts are beefed up quite a lot in order to improve sound and response, that’s probably why the bell flares on these DaCarbo horns are on the heavier side.

It seems to me that the reason why he chose carbon fiber is because of the many ways you can manipulate the material, not only with variable thicknesses but also with the direction of the weave of the carbon fiber. That way you can get more precise and consistent results compared to brass, which tend to vary a lot from horn to horn. It's definitely a different answer to the "why carbon fiber?" question.

As for the slide, the outer slide has a nickel silver brace and a pretty wide (about the same as an 88H) nickel crook so it’s not as light as a 100% carbon fiber slide. Mine weighs about 186g, 100g or so heavier than a Butler outer slide.

[Reedman1]

That's probably not the best way to put that.

Correction:

People with differently strengthed arms**

Are the DaCarbos not light? I thought that was the reason people were going nuts for carbon fiber.

"Differently strengthened arms". Or perhaps shoulder or wrist pain issues due to bone structure, age, or other not-uncommon factors.

[Digidog]

Are the DaCarbos not light? I thought that was the reason people were going nuts for carbon fiber.

It doesn't seem like the daCarbos are especially light. Both @Finetales and @IdoMeshulam say that, at least, the horns they have played were not particularly light compared to their regular horns.

If there is a hype for carbon fiber instruments, it must've totally flown past me. For as long as it seems that daCarbo has been producing instruments, I have neither met, or heard of anyone playing a daCarbo instrument - trombonist or trumpeter alike. So who are going nuts? Where is the craze? In the U.S.? In France? Germany? Ghana? Brazil? The one specimen I'd seen before finding their web site, has been sitting for sale in the Thomann shop for a long time now, and that one was the first carbon fiber trombone I've ever seen for a regular sale.

I'm still curious about them, and I will make it so I can try one when I go to Germany or Switzerland next time (when this wretched pandemy so permits, g-damn it!).

[hyperbolica]

Part of the reason you've never heard of them is that all the links to a DaCarbo site are dead. Butler site is very active. Plus, DaCarbo doesn't have a bass, and the weight of a bass seems to be the biggest reason to get carbon fiber. DaCarbo seems to be working from the premise that there's something wrong with the acoustics of brass instruments that's worth a lot of extra money. I think Butler is just going with the weight and durability issues, which more align with what real trombonists are concerned about. DaCarbo is run by a scientist. Scientists generally don't get how to make successful companies or even successful products for that matter.

[Fidbone]

https://dacarbo.ch/artists/

[hyperbolica]

https://dacarbo.ch/artists/

From the search, all the dacarbo.us links are dead. And many of the rest of them are very old.

aa.jpg

[Elow]

Their main focus seems to be on trumpets, all i see on the what’s new page is trumpets. Not sure why a trumpet player would want half a carbon fiber bell

[Posaunus]

As hyperbolica noted, all the links you see on the Swiss Website (.ch) are old; not updated in recent history.
The U.S. Website (.us) is dead, or abandoned, or ...

I doubt that Arturo Sandoval plays DaCarbo as his main axe. He has enthusiastically "endorsed" a number of trumpet manufacturers!