Well-suited to recording?

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MrHCinDE
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Well-suited to recording?

Post by MrHCinDE »

I saw a couple of threads where people have suggested an instrument records well or something else to the same effect.

Which characteristics would you look for in a horn for recording? This could be different depending on the ensemble, style, venue, recording set-up, part etc.

Does anyone play different horns for recording than live gigs? If so, for what reasons?
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by Burgerbob »

Just a couple things I would think of:

I'd want a horn that's very consistent, intonation and response wise, so you're not wasting anyone's time. I know studio players that play horns they don't particularly... enjoy, but they're easy and consistent so they are used in the studio.

I might want a horn that lights up sooner, so that it sounds louder without as much effort behind the horn.
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by harrisonreed »

Sorry, I'm in a chatty mood today. Someone tell me to shut up please!

If you think about it, a horn that doesn't sound good on the recording probably doesn't sound good in real life, but maybe not always. Mics tell lies if they are on-axis, the right kind of mic, and they are less than 3 feet away. Mics tell a lot less lies if they are off axis, and more than 3 feet away.

So it depends on the recording style I guess. A large diaphragm condenser or ribbon mic, close up, on axis will make some horns sound like beasts with way too much bass, and other more timid horns (or playing styles) sound great. A dynamic mic almost inside the bell might even out the most timid playing or the most monstrous playing, depending on the gain. In all of these instances, you might have someone who really does not sound that good in their tone or articulations without a mic, especially if you are standing ten feet away in a room with mediocre acoustics. On record, they might sound amazing, because the ribbon mic or LDC is going to warm up the sound, possibly give the proximity effect, and reject a lot of the crud in the higher frequencies. None of these setups are going to faithfully reproduce the acoustic of the room, or what the instrument would sound like to human ears at the distance recorded, and that is often a very good thing, especially in a jazz, cinematic, or studio type recording. But it will sound all wrong for classical music.

Here's an example - a jazz trombone being played by Waltrous in the 70s, towards a Neumann U87 that is only sightly off-axis and a couple feet away will sound UNBELIEVABLE. It will have a warmer sound than reality, it will pick up and give presence to all the little effects that gave Waltrous his sound. If that mic had a sister, 12 feet away in the same room, and you A/B the audio, the 12 foot recording would likely be very underwhelming. The room would eat up a lot of those little details and reflect back a sound that Waltrous was not known for.

If you take away the proximity effect, and add a lot more of the room in, you'll get a more faithful recording. If you use neutral small condensers, you'll get probably too realistic of an image, because SDCs don't reject anything. Every breath, click of your valve, and scratch in the slide will show up faithfully imaged in your recording, in crystal clear audio.

Again, if it sounds bad in this scenario (maybe not the SDC scenario!), then it definitely sounds bad in real life. So you could almost use this technique to figure out what the best trombone you have is relatively objectively, rather than just based on feel and the sound from behind the bell.

The real trombone sound, good or bad, is 90% dependent on what the room gives your ears or gives the mic. Reflections, reverb, feedback from the room to the player ... That's what makes the trombone sound the way it does. If the room is bad, even your favorite trombone god would sound bad if miked from more than a few feet away, unless if they are going for that studio style recording and actively rejecting the room sound.

A crappy student trombone played well in a great room with the right mic placement will sound like heaven compared to the best trombone you own played equally as well in a horrible sounding room with the wrong mic technique. No change in trombone will improve that situation, and you'll lose time and time again.

Once you do have the recording technique down, though, who knows. I would think that the instrument that needs the least EQ in post would be the best one -- something that has a lot of strong fundamental and overtones, rather than a horn with a lot more diffuse overtones that the human ear might find warmer or darker. A warm horn might sound great if that's the only thing in the recording, but it could get lost and muddy when combined with other instruments in the mix. For me, dark or "warm" horns always seem to need an EQ boost in the mids, and a small presence boost so they become distinct in the mix. The issue for me is that the fluffy overtones pretty much still get boosted together. Horns with a spectrum that looks like 8 or 9 bright red lines on the EQ to begin with sound clearer and better in a mix than horns that are just red fuzz everywhere.

Aiden nailed the other one -- the horn has to be something that you can play in tune, and for a long time without chipping notes.
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by WGWTR180 »

Some of the above information is a given whether you are recording or not. The Player, not the instrument, needs be able to play in tune "and for a long time without chipping notes." Since when does the instrument determine that? No one wants to spend countless hours in post production cleaning up one's crappy playing. As for instruments that pick up better than others: ones that tend to play more focused tend to pick up better on recordings. Yes mic placement, recording equipment, and the human element can make any recording good or bad but more focused instruments just pick up better. It is also VERY POSSIBLE to play an instrument that only plays well in a studio and not in a live space and vice versa.
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by WGWTR180 »

Burgerbob wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 2:04 am Just a couple things I would think of:

I'd want a horn that's very consistent, intonation and response wise, so you're not wasting anyone's time. I know studio players that play horns they don't particularly... enjoy, but they're easy and consistent so they are used in the studio.

I might want a horn that lights up sooner, so that it sounds louder without as much effort behind the horn.
I'd be curious as to who you know that consistently works in the studios and plays an instrument that they don't particularly......enjoy.
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by ithinknot »

harrisonreed wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 3:12 am Waltrous
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

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ithinknot wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 10:14 am
harrisonreed wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 3:12 am Waltrous
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Hell yeah
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by BGuttman »

Don't think he plays a bass, though... ;)
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by Matt K »

Sidenote: That is an amazing drawing.

I will say that in my somewhat limited experience on the recording scene, I tended to play bigger horns in recordings than I would have live. I almost always recorded with a bass slide on my tenor, even for 1st parts on a bell that I'd normally play a narrow or T25/47 slide on live. All I have to do is sound good 2 feet in front of the bell and I have an oppressively bright sound, soI think that works the bets if I'm optimizing for that distance. The majority of the recording work I did in the last few years was in a booth, with the occasional section playing... on the section work I also used that slide but it was more a function of me sitting 2nd and having the occasional unison line with the bass trombone rather than the sound per se. Although I do think I blend better with a bass slide on 2nd part depending on what I'm recording. However, if I were doing a live recording, I'd probably play the same thing I do live because as Harrison noted, you get the whole of the room then, rather than just the little sliver of space that you get in a sound booth.

Or in short, 100% depends on what and how you are recording.
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by Burgerbob »

WGWTR180 wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 7:49 am
I'd be curious as to who you know that consistently works in the studios and plays an instrument that they don't particularly......enjoy.
I just played quartets with a guy that plays a nickel bell Rath R4F. He's had probably dozens of large bores, many of which he really liked, but the Rath gets the job done with minimal fuss. Greenhoes, Getzen Bousfield, Elkhart 88Hs, all have been passed over even though they were great and made a sound he'd probably prefer most of the time.
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by Fridge »

I have a horn that records better than two of my other bass bones. Easy to light up at a lower volume. Very compact at all volumes. I rarely get above forte. Very rarely. It would be too much on a loud gig, probably not in a big band. Records well on my Royer and my Warm Audio 87r2. And I don’t use a big mouthpiece either.

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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by WGWTR180 »

Burgerbob wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:39 pm
WGWTR180 wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 7:49 am
I'd be curious as to who you know that consistently works in the studios and plays an instrument that they don't particularly......enjoy.
I just played quartets with a guy that plays a nickel bell Rath R4F. He's had probably dozens of large bores, many of which he really liked, but the Rath gets the job done with minimal fuss. Greenhoes, Getzen Bousfield, Elkhart 88Hs, all have been passed over even though they were great and made a sound he'd probably prefer most of the time.
Playing an instrument by choice is not playing an instrument "that they don't particularly...enjoy." I doubt many players play an instrument that they don't enjoy for money.
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by Burgerbob »

WGWTR180 wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 6:26 am

Playing an instrument by choice is not playing an instrument "that they don't particularly...enjoy." I doubt many players play an instrument that they don't enjoy for money.
You asked! :idk:
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by ChadA »

I know a high level professional orchestral brass player who played an instrument for several years about which he said: "I hate the way it sounds, but I sleep better at night." My takeaway was that it was an instrument that made a sound that wasn't his favorite, but that it was easy to play and hard to miss things. Sometimes that's worth something. It's worth noting he's since moved on from that instrument....
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by WGWTR180 »

Burgerbob wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 8:07 am
WGWTR180 wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 6:26 am

Playing an instrument by choice is not playing an instrument "that they don't particularly...enjoy." I doubt many players play an instrument that they don't enjoy for money.
You asked! :idk:
Missing my point as always.
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by Matt K »

Not sure why that’s a particularly controversial statement. In my profession I occasionally use tools that are not as fun, enjoyable, etc. to use as others. This very forum is built on PHP, a language I find to be not nearly as enjoyable as Python, for example. I just fixed a bug on a Windows server. I much prefer Linux. I don’t enjoy working on Windows much at all actually. But I get paid to, so I do it. If I were exclusively a technical hobbyist I might not do that. Same goes for just about anything you do to make money.
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by ithinknot »

Matt K wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 11:21 am Not sure why that’s a particularly controversial statement.
Exactly. I know colleagues from every instrument family whose daily driver isn't the instrument that sets their heart on fire, but one less prone to bite the hand that earns. Even more so in the historical performance world, where people may also be making (often minor, but still not entirely kosher) compromises where they've found the final details of historical fidelity to be delightful, beautiful, and uneconomically dangerous. And then we have trumpets with holes :?
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by blast »

Someone doesn't like Raths.....
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by WGWTR180 »

Matt K wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 11:21 am Not sure why that’s a particularly controversial statement. In my profession I occasionally use tools that are not as fun, enjoyable, etc. to use as others. This very forum is built on PHP, a language I find to be not nearly as enjoyable as Python, for example. I just fixed a bug on a Windows server. I much prefer Linux. I don’t enjoy working on Windows much at all actually. But I get paid to, so I do it. If I were exclusively a technical hobbyist I might not do that. Same goes for just about anything you do to make money.
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by WGWTR180 »

ithinknot wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:07 pm
Matt K wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 11:21 am Not sure why that’s a particularly controversial statement.
Exactly. I know colleagues from every instrument family whose daily driver isn't the instrument that sets their heart on fire, but one less prone to bite the hand that earns. Even more so in the historical performance world, where people may also be making (often minor, but still not entirely kosher) compromises where they've found the final details of historical fidelity to be delightful, beautiful, and uneconomically dangerous. And then we have trumpets with holes :?
Completely different scenario.
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by Matt K »

I mean, I also provided am the exact same scenario because I did recording professionally too. I really don’t see any indication about what you feel is wrong about that other than pure conjecture.
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by WGWTR180 »

Matt K wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 5:05 am I mean, I also provided am the exact same scenario because I did recording professionally too. I really don’t see any indication about what you feel is wrong about that other than pure conjecture.
Matt. Let's get real. We've all done some recording work. But let's leave the big decisions to the big boys. So let's ask some of LA's and New York's finest studio players. Are there any here on The Chat? Does anyone play an instrument that they don't enjoy playing in the studios?? Does Bill Reichenbach play an instrument that he doesn't like? Andy Martin? Just to name a few. I'm curious.
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by Matt K »

You’re moving the goalposts. All Aidan contended is that some studio players play instruments they’d otherwise not play because they were recording. For players like Andy Martin, You’re looking at being much more in demand, which is going to allow you to be both selective about what you record and who you record with/for. In turn, that’s going to provide you with a degree of both security and autonomy that a rank and file type person will not have. Aiden did not insinuate that if you record you will only play instruments you don’t like playing, that all trombonists play instruments they don’t enjoy, etc. I’d say I was not too far from the typical professional, by no means Andy Martin, and I’ve had to make similar compromises to deliver.

It might be generational to some degree. There are a few really great players in the area I was giggling in who are a few years younger than myself who I was talking with about how needs have changed in the last 50 years or so. One of them was getting a lot of bass gigs, which they were happy to be gigging, but they really preferred small bores. Similarly, on the sessions I’ve done it isn’t unusual for me to be the only trombonist, so I’ll be covering all the parts from principal down to bass or “contrabass” (I want a pedal G that’s contra register right?!). the studio people I’ve talked to who did similar work back 50 years or so ago seem to indicate they typically played one part, in a section. Not doubling on bass on the same session.

I’ve always enjoyed playing bass parts personally. But I can see why if you’re focused on other things why one might not enjoy it. But what constitutes enjoyment is subjective and short of being a world class soloist, I don’t much see a way around skipping the part where you occasionally do things you’d rather not do.
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by BGuttman »

I would doubt that any pro plays a horn he/she doesn't like, whatever the reason. All horns have different personalities, and some record better than others, while others may sound better live.

If you have a horn that fits you in all circumstances, that's wonderful. But it's not mandatory.

And whether the horn records well can be a function of many factors; including the hall, the mics, the equalization gear, etc.
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by WGWTR180 »

Matt K wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 5:53 am You’re moving the goalposts. All Aidan contended is that some studio players play instruments they’d otherwise not play because they were recording. For players like Andy Martin, You’re looking at being much more in demand, which is going to allow you to be both selective about what you record and who you record with/for. In turn, that’s going to provide you with a degree of both security and autonomy that a rank and file type person will not have. Aiden did not insinuate that if you record you will only play instruments you don’t like playing, that all trombonists play instruments they don’t enjoy, etc. I’d say I was not too far from the typical professional, by no means Andy Martin, and I’ve had to make similar compromises to deliver.

It might be generational to some degree. There are a few really great players in the area I was giggling in who are a few years younger than myself who I was talking with about how needs have changed in the last 50 years or so. One of them was getting a lot of bass gigs, which they were happy to be gigging, but they really preferred small bores. Similarly, on the sessions I’ve done it isn’t unusual for me to be the only trombonist, so I’ll be covering all the parts from principal down to bass or “contrabass” (I want a pedal G that’s contra register right?!). the studio people I’ve talked to who did similar work back 50 years or so ago seem to indicate they typically played one part, in a section. Not doubling on bass on the same session.

I’ve always enjoyed playing bass parts personally. But I can see why if you’re focused on other things why one might not enjoy it. But what constitutes enjoyment is subjective and short of being a world class soloist, I don’t much see a way around skipping the part where you occasionally do things you’d rather not do.
NO. As usual you cannot focus and you've moved them.
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by Matt K »

Too much coffee. Or well... maybe not enough.
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

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WGWTR180 wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 5:26 am
Matt. Let's get real. We've all done some recording work. But let's leave the big decisions to the big boys. So let's ask some of LA's and New York's finest studio players. Are there any here on The Chat? Does anyone play an instrument that they don't enjoy playing in the studios?? Does Bill Reichenbach play an instrument that he doesn't like? Andy Martin? Just to name a few. I'm curious.
Those aren't the only studio players. But hey, what do I know.
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by Molefsky »

No idea why this thread has become so contentious but I understand what Burgerrobert is saying , I've got an Olds studio with a less than stellar slide and missing slide lock that was given to me by a repair tech friend who got it for pennies and made it playable. I was making my living playing salsa at the time and decided to try it on a low stakes gig. A few tunes in I pick it up and never went back. The product, in that moment, was just better even if it otherwise just sits in my closet. Intonation was consistent, dense cutting sound, clear high range. This thing was a little tank. I personally hate scratchy slides however and don't use it otherwise. Wish I'd had it when we recorded our last album...
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by Matt K »

You aren't a "big boy" you don't count! ;)
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by spencercarran »

BGuttman wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:20 am I would doubt that any pro plays a horn he/she doesn't like, whatever the reason.
Unless, for instance, in a setting where they're encouraged/required to play on a particular brand.
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by mbarbier »

spencercarran wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:51 am

Unless, for instance, in a setting where they're encouraged/required to play on a particular brand.
I've had a few teachers in top rung orchestras who played a horn they disliked because it's what the section played. They both switched to horns they liked more when the principal player retired and they could. One of them switched back to the horn they didn't like cause it works better in the hall. It makes sense to me.

On the studio side the "big boys" tend to set the tone of gear used often based on what the composers want. For example, here in LA the focus has really shifted from mostly playing small horns in the studios to playing large orchestral horns, so as those trends go everyone follows. So while it's true that people like Bill and Alex may not play horns they dislike, everyone else has to match and what's needed to may not be their preference. An example that comes to mind, as it's a conversation I've had with people at sessions (who I ask because they do it A LOT more than me) is that a lot of orchestral sound concepts really focus on sending your sound into the hall, but that doesn't necessarily sound right up close, which is where the mics are.... I've had a lot of conversations about how people make that adjustment and a small but decent number of people are, especially, playing on mouthpieces they'd prefer not to but it just works a bit better for the job. On the converse there are people who've needed to start playing large bore more cause of that shift it's just not their thing- they obviously practice and sound good on them, but they just feel laborious to them. Doesn't necessarily mean they hate them or anything, it's just not their preference, but needs must.

To me the realllllllly cool part of this conversation to have is the idea of how people move/focus their sounds. I remember hearing my old teacher (a really great second trombonist) in the orchestra the first time and he sounded amazing, really filled out the section and just a beautiful pure sound on his solo (scherahoweveryouspellit). It was then totally jarring to hear him in a lesson for the first time where the sound was like kinda...weird? It felt a little fuzzy and tubby, then heard him in studio class the same day in a bigger room and he sounded like a god again. I've had the converse experience with studio players- hearing how incredible some sound right next to them and just kinda less incredible in a large orchestra hall. I don't mean that as a knock against either- I think it's really a cool thing to hear the different ways different players fit their jobs. And then there's Alex Iles who can just like move the focus of his sound seemingly at will. Sounds equally the same right next to him and hearing him play sub with the Phil in Disney. Really incredible. I wish that that was more of the conversation- consciously adjusting sound (which can mean gear) to fit the job/hall/group etc, how we project it, and what space it's filling.
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by RustBeltBass »

An interesting topic that, as most conversations here, is getting ruined.

I wrote to a tuba playing friend who does a lot of big studio work in LA and asked him what his input on this is. He sits occasionally next to some of the people who were mentioned here and others. I will gladly share what he says here pending his approval.

Unless, you know….things continue to escalate here.
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by WGWTR180 »

Burgerbob wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 8:19 am
WGWTR180 wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 5:26 am
Matt. Let's get real. We've all done some recording work. But let's leave the big decisions to the big boys. So let's ask some of LA's and New York's finest studio players. Are there any here on The Chat? Does anyone play an instrument that they don't enjoy playing in the studios?? Does Bill Reichenbach play an instrument that he doesn't like? Andy Martin? Just to name a few. I'm curious.
Those aren't the only studio players. But hey, what do I know.
Well that seems to be the question. What do you know??? Inquiring minds......
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by Burgerbob »

WGWTR180 wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:20 pm
Well that seems to be the question. What do you know??? Inquiring minds......
Bill, you don't have to be that guy. I provided an answer that people seem to agree with, based on my real-life experiences as a pro here in LA (not necessarily a guy in the studios- I'm not claiming that).

Have a nice day,

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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by mbarbier »

RustBeltBass wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 11:59 am An interesting topic that, as most conversations here, is getting ruined.

I wrote to a tuba playing friend who does a lot of big studio work in LA and asked him what his input on this is. He sits occasionally next to some of the people who were mentioned here and others. I will gladly share what he says here pending his approval.

Unless, you know….things continue to escalate here.
Awesome- the tuba side of this discussion is a really interesting one! I feel super fortunate to be on faculty at a few colleges with the three main players (I assume one is the same person you wrote) and I love hearing their thoughts on this stuff. There's a tendency to mic the tuba in a....less than ideal way in the big studios (dunno know why) so it's always interesting to get their thoughts on how they work around that. One of the tubists mentioned above (and the one I play with the most) moved here with a giant 6/4 and was educated at the Church of Jacobs so had thoughts on big horns and projection. it's been really interesting to hear him talk about solving the studio nut. He shifted to a smaller CC pretty quickly which he always described as "fine" and then after a decadeish on that switched back to a bigger horn again, but it was really cool to hear how he sort of brought some ideas back to the big horn from the smaller one.

I think one thing that may be a sticking point in some of the disputes in the thread is the difference between instruments people don't like vs bad iinstrument. None of the studio people are playing bad quality instruments, sometimes it's just horns they don't love that are the best fit for the job. Reminds me of that Glenn Gould quote when talking about one of his earlier recordings "I recognize that it's very well done for it's kind, I just don't happen to like it's kind very much."
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by RustBeltBass »

spencercarran wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:51 am
BGuttman wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:20 am I would doubt that any pro plays a horn he/she doesn't like, whatever the reason.
Unless, for instance, in a setting where they're encouraged/required to play on a particular brand.
I can not speak for the studio musician scene as I have limited experience doing that. But occasionally, a professional trombonist might find him or herself in a situation where they might have to play a horn that wouldn’t be their personal first choice (!!!)

I put the exclamation marks to emphasize that an instrument not being someone’s first choice doesn’t mean they don’t like it or it’s bad, just to make that clear. Here is a professional experience of this kind.

From 2009-2011 I was the bass trombone fellow of the Staatskapelle Dresden, one of the German Top orchestras and one of the most inspiring times in my musical life.
In this orchestra you play a German trombone, period. It’s in the contract if I remember correctly.

I won the audition and my trial period on my Edwards but once offered the fellowship switched to a Lätzsch Cieslik. A beautiful instrument, and it made sense to play this horn in this wonderful section. Would it have been my first choice ? No, but It was perfectly fine to work with. Just one professional experience where I noticed this.

In regards to studio musicians, I will say that I shared a long car ride to a brass ensemble performance with one of the top German studio guys. We spoke about our musical upbringing as well as what instrument we grew up playing and what we like and why yadda yadda. His personal horn of choice was a German one but for his recording work with other brass players he used something else as it was just easier for the job. (I don’t recall what model, tbh). If that is very common or if this player is an exception from the rule, I don’t know.
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by WGWTR180 »

It's really amazing here that no one read the original quote that I objected to. So most of you have just piled on without actually reading what was written. That's ok-many attention spans are limited. YES people choose what they choose to play wherever they play. But we are suppose to be speaking about studio work and not orchestral jobs and/or computer software. All of the instruments that I own I enjoy playing. I wouldn't own an instrument that I don't enjoy performing on. Some work better than others in certain situations and I choose, from all of the instruments that I enjoy(I keep repeating this word for a reason), for specific purposes. So I cannot imagine that a top studio player plays an instrument that they don't enjoy for one reason or another. They might like others better but that is not the point nor was that what I was objecting to. It's actually possible to pick one over the other and actually still enjoy all of them. Larry Minick even built bass trombones, possibly other types as well, specifically for studio work that didn't necessarily work well outside of the studios but were still enjoyable to play. Great players sound great on anything.
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BGuttman
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by BGuttman »

The OP said nothing about liking the horn. He asked whether you might use different horns for recording rather than other playing. As you clearly indicate in your post. Every horn has a personality and some personalities are better for some jobs than others.

As to playing a horn I don't like, I can think of one situation: the "Blues Brothers Bar Gig" where they had to be shielded from thrown bottles and glasses by chicken wire.
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
"Almost Professional"
RustBeltBass
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by RustBeltBass »

BGuttman wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:49 pm The OP said nothing about liking the horn. He asked whether you might use different horns for recording rather than other playing. As you clearly indicate in your post. Every horn has a personality and some personalities are better for some jobs than others.

You are correct. The first response to the original question by burgerbob led the way for the conversation to go the “liking the horn” route. Other people picked up on that and a conversation started that included some really interesting points until it became a bit tensed there.

There is something to be said for staying on topic. But given the lack of input from the OP as well as the overall relatively slow traffic on the forum, I think some leniency is in order.
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by elmsandr »

WGWTR180 wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:40 pm It's really amazing here that no one read the original quote that I objected to. So most of you have just piled on without actually reading what was written. That's ok-many attention spans are limited.
Bill… we read it. We can understand that point just fine and can imagine ourselves in that position rather easily. We aren’t parsing it as harshly as you are. That’s fine. We don’t need to agree, but don’t assume that we are too amused by the nearest shiny object that we can’t keep an idea in focus. I read it as a shading of the thought… he didn’t say they hated the horn, though I have met a few top level pros that have said they hate the horn in their hands, but I am sure that was mostly hyperbole and locker room talk, not an actual data point (find yourself in a room of trumpet players that have to play cornet or Eb soprano cornet and I’m sure you’ll hear the same thing).

Oh, and I do agree with you, I don’t own horns I don’t enjoy… I eventually sold them. However, if I were still being paid to play, I’d probably still be trying to find something that plays like one of them while making me as happy as my weird collection of vintage horns.

Cheers,
Andy
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by blast »

I think an important thing to remember regarding recording work is that the musician has zero control of the process of creating the sound product apart from playing what is required, in time and in tune. It's almost forty years since I worked in the London studio scene (well I have been back occasionally) and things may have changed (I doubt it) but it was all about time and tuning...and repeatability through takes. Sadly, I think there are fewer good engineers around now and I am constantly disappointed with the final results of recordings I have been part of in recent years. That is in a more orchestral sense. To record for the likes of Decca back in the day was a joy...you knew they would make you sound great...even if you weren't. What you play on makes so little difference in a studio...it's how you play it and what the engineers do with it....
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by Matt K »

Just glad I don’t have to break out an Eb clarinet!

Recording traditional jazz can be really difficult because of the improvisatory nature of it but also because the whole band is more setup to be acoustic. But you also have the advantage that you don’t have to be matching around. When I did a few of those types of recordings, sometimes we wouldn’t use a sousaphone but used a regular Bb tuba which was easier to record in the studio space we had. The trumpet players also sometimes switched to cornets such as for backgrounds so they didn’t pierce so much since in those recordings, the mics were basically whole band and whoever had the melody iirc. I didn’t change my horn in that setup just used a small bore.
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spencercarran
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by spencercarran »

WGWTR180 wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:40 pmBut we are suppose to be speaking about studio work and not orchestral jobs and/or computer software. All of the instruments that I own I enjoy playing.
...and the response you objected to relayed the experiences of studio players, albeit second-hand. Follow-up comments on orchestral jobs and computer software just seemed to be relating to the fact that, yes, many of us will use equipment that we don't prefer if that's what we need to do for the paycheck. It's not that weird to imagine studio players making the same general sort of compromises that everyone else makes.

All the instruments that I own I enjoy playing as well, but I'm strictly a hobbyist and don't rely on any of them to pay my rent. I enjoy my weird old 3 valve compensating Besson euphonium, and in a community band it's not a big deal for me to miss a low Eb or take it up an octave (it's probably doubled in the tuba part anyways). If I were playing for money, I'd have to get a more standard instrument to cover the part exactly as written.
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by MrHCinDE »

Thanks to all who have replied to my original post and the subsequent discussion.

My interest was more in the characteristics of horns that people may think are more suited to recording and the reasons they may select them for that task. However, I appreciate my question "If so, for what reasons?" is open to a whole range of discussions and am glad that there is a wide spectrum of responses. Trombonechat should be welcoming to all opinions and although we may not always agree, it's a great way to hear the views of players from all levels. By internet forum standards it mostly stays quite civil on here but now and again things can get a bit grumpy, I wonder whether this puts some people off from more actively participating?

To give some background to my original questions, I'm an amateur with limited recording experience. The group recordings I've played on were mostly live recordings of concerts for archiving/posterity, or recordings of an ensemble in a concert venue without close mics. So far, I didn’t ever have a second thought about gear for these types of recordings, primarily it was about making my best live sound in the hall and letting the engineers take care of the rest. I haven’t read anything in the replies that would encourage me to re-think this approach for these types of recordings.

I’ve also played on a few non-commercial studio recordings. One example of these was for the musical version of the full monty. We recorded the whole backing track in a studio for use by the production. We were a mix of amateurs and pros who just met at the studio on the day and got the whole book down, complete with imperfections, in one day. I was playing the 2nd trombone part and decided to play my bass (Reynolds Contempora) which was my primary instrument at the time. As I recall, the part had a reasonable range with a bit of trigger stuff and maybe an occasional pedal and a little pinch of relatively high stuff. It was a very long day. In hindsight it may have been more sensible to play it on a large bore tenor and make my life easier on the bulk of the playing, especially as an inexperienced session musician who is not used to long days in the studio. The engineers could have probably made my low range on a tenor sound decent, or the very least representative of what I actually sound like. For a live performance of the same book, I would 100% still go with the bass as endurance wouldn’t be an issue and I enjoy the sound of it more for the low stuff. I actually went to a performance of that production so got to hear the full mix blasted through the sound system in the theatre with vocalists, quite surreal. Overall the recording was well-received by the director and cast, it can’t have been that bad as I got asked back for the next one!

Within the same category of horn, e.g. small bore tenor, I have some horns which I can play more consistently and efficiently than others. Of the horns I have, the ones which I believe I can play more consistently and efficiently also tend to give me the most player feedback, which is something I really rely on. Thinking about a dead recording studio with limited acoustic feedback, I’d probably tend towards the horn I feel most comfortable on and that would be the one that sounds best to me behind the bell. I’d be assuming that as long as I play accurately (timing, intonation, clean production, dynamics etc.), in the appropriate style and with a solid sound the engineers will make something decent out of it.

I hadn’t really thought about the fuzziness/clarity aspects before, sounds quite logical, hard to quantify but I appreciate the explanation from harrisonreed in particular. As for a horn which brightens up earlier, it would make sense for some people I’m sure but I tend to be battling against an overly bright sound rather than trying to encourage it.
Last edited by MrHCinDE on Wed Aug 25, 2021 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by MStarke »

For me this was mostly quite an interesting discussion!
Would love to get more impressions.
Cannot contribute too much on recording in a narrower sense.

But I know of some very very high-level players who told me that the instruments they play sound less interesting, but play more reliably/easily. I am thinking of two players in German top symphony orchestras (that also do lots of recordings) playing American instead of German trombones. There are certainly more.
To a degree this fits to all these German/American hybrid trombones that try to combine sound and playability.
(RustBeltBrass, you might know some of these examples as well!)
Markus Starke
https://www.mst-studio-mouthpieces.com/

Alto: Conn 35h, Kanstul, Weril
Tenor: 3x Conn 6h, Blessing medium, Elkhart 88H, modern 88HT, Greenhoe Conn 88HT, Kruspe, Heckel, Piering replica
Bass: Conn 112h, Greenhoe, Conn 60h
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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by blast »

I should re state this. If you want to do high end commercial recording work, you need perfect intonation, perfect reading skills, perfect ability to play again 20-30 times exactly the same. Be polite and punctual and nobody will care what you play on.

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Re: Well-suited to recording?

Post by Pre59 »

blast wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 11:04 am I should re state this. If you want to do high end commercial recording work, you need perfect intonation, perfect reading skills, perfect ability to play again 20-30 times exactly the same. Be polite and punctual and nobody will care what you play on.

Chris
This is very close to what I've been thinking. Is the player well-suited to recording?
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