Are alto slides just bad?

[MBeal]

I've had an assortment of tenors over the years and all of them had decent slides. Some (Kanstul 760, K&H Bolero) were really impressive and my Getzen 3508 was downright buttery.

Over the last several years I've owned half a dozen altos and every last one has had a scratchy slide. I expected that from the various Chinese horns I've owned, but the high end ones (Conn 36H, K&H 122) haven't been noticeably better.

Is there something intrinsically bad about alto slides? (I can't see any reason why that would be the case).

[BGuttman]

My Conn 36H has a very nice slide. My biggest problem is that it's too easy to reach "9th position" and I have to put the slide back on. FWIW, I use a generic cold cream formula similar to old Pond's for lubrication. Note that I bought the demo horn when they were displaying at NYBCFS in 1990 and they probably prepped it pretty well for the show.

Are you torqueing the slide to cause alignment problems? Have you cleaned any manufacturing grit from the outer slide before first use?

[spencercarran]

Slide on my Bach 39 is fine (I'm a Trombotine guy). Can't guess what's causing your bad luck, at least on the more expensive Western altos.

[heinzgries]

the slides on my 5 altos move perfect. I use Slide-O-Mix Trombone Lubricant

[Matt K]

Interesting observation on googling the model trombones you mentioned... they all seem to have lightweight, nickel slides except the Conn 36H. Nickel slides are typically quite a bit lighter than brass slides so weight might be playing a role here. That said, nickel is also harder to fix from what I've been told... so if there's is something with your K&H 122, it might have been damaged at some point and the repair to being perfectly in alignment might not be totally right.

At any rate, there's no reason an alto slide should be any worse, all else being equal, to a tenor slide so if your alto has a problem, it's likely something that can be alleviated by a tech. In the worst case, by replacing a tube or tubes with new ones if the old one is damaged for one reason or the other.

[MTbassbone]

I had a Conn 36H for about a decade. When off the bell the slide felt decent but when attached to the bell it felt clumsy. It felt fast in some areas but slow in others. It also felt there was too much play between the inner and outer slide. Never really figured out and sold the horn as I was not using it.

[modelerdc]

My Jin Bao alto had a scratchy slide. I put some toothpaste on the inner slides tubes and worked it back and forth for an hour, cleaned it back up, and the scratchy sounds are gone!

[Bonearzt]

Interesting observation on googling the model trombones you mentioned... they all seem to have lightweight, nickel slides except the Conn 36H. Nickel slides are typically quite a bit lighter than brass slides so weight might be playing a role here. That said, nickel is also harder to fix from what I've been told... so if there's is something with your K&H 122, it might have been damaged at some point and the repair to being perfectly in alignment might not be totally right.
At any rate, there's no reason an alto slide should be any worse, all else being equal, to a tenor slide so if your alto has a problem, it's likely something that can be alleviated by a tech. In the worst case, by replacing a tube or tubes with new ones if the old one is damaged for one reason or the other.

I don't believe there's any real physical weight difference between the nickle and brass slides, but that depends on the thickness of the tube walls.
Nickel IS a harder, more brittle material, and is a bit more difficult to repair once it's dented.

But agreed that slides are slides and being an Alto is no reason for it to be in less than playable condition.

Eric

[harrisonreed]

My Eastlake 36H has the best slide out of all my trombones, followed by my Eastlake 88H.

Maybe you are doing something ergonomically when you play alto that either makes it feel bad or actually wrecks the slide?

[ithinknot]

It's true that lighter slides (whether through thinner material, lack of oversleeves, or - as in the case of altos - simply being smaller) will feel worse for a notional level of condition/alignment/lubrication, because of their different inertial behavior (momentum being the product of mass and velocity). So a beat-up standard weight bass slide might feel not great but not annoying, whereas a light weight alto slide in the 'same' condition would be more disappointing.

But if you mean scratchy literally, then either you're just unlucky or it's as Harrison says.

[timbone]

I say different manufacturers need different slide preparations, just like oil in a brand of car, find what works, what have you experimented with?

[Digidog]

I once had a student who clasped his left hand around the slide bar so hard, that he actually bent the inner slides slightly towards each other - all slides on his trombones scratched one way or the other.

At first I was at a loss as to why he never had good slides, but when I happened to check the horizontal alignment of his inner slide tubes, I finally figured out what was at play - after some serious thinking, though.

He moved to another town shortly after I figured it out about his left hand grip, so I have no idea if he ever could rework his holding of his horns.

[ChadA]

The slide on the JinBao alto I had wasn't great. The slide on my Yamaha is really good.

[bcschipper]

My suggestion would be to play your alto as much as usually your tenor for a month and then report back.

[MBeal]

I once had a student who clasped his left hand around the slide bar so hard, that he actually bent the inner slides slightly towards each other - all slides on his trombones scratched one way or the other.

I don't think it's the way I'm playing. I noticed the scratchiness from the first time I took them out of the case, plus my tenors didn't exhibit this issue.

I'm thinking I'll send it to they Slide Doctor for a tune up and see how it comes back.

[MBeal]

My suggestion would be to play your alto as much as usually your tenor for a month and then report back.

I actually sold my tenor, so this alto is the only thing I play on now.

[bcschipper]

My suggestion would be to play your alto as much as usually your tenor for a month and then report back.

I actually sold my tenor, so this alto is the only thing I play on now.

O.k., so we eliminated that reason.

[Digidog]

I once had a student who clasped his left hand around the slide bar so hard, that he actually bent the inner slides slightly towards each other - all slides on his trombones scratched one way or the other.

I don't think it's the way I'm playing. I noticed the scratchiness from the first time I took them out of the case, plus my tenors didn't exhibit this issue.

I'm thinking I'll send it to they Slide Doctor for a tune up and see how it comes back.

It may not be how you play, but the vertical grip bar could be weak - or weakly soldered - so no matter how delicate you hold your horn, the inner slides will be realigned horizontally; bent inwards.

In any case, you should have a tech look at it. Best of luck!

[MBeal]

So here's the update.

I noticed there was a bottle of Slide-o-Mix Rapid Comfort that came with the horn. I've always used Conn Formula 3, but I thought: German horn, maybe it wants German lube. So I gave it a cleaning with Wright's brass polish and applied the Slide-o-Mix.

The difference was remarkable. No more scratching. Not quite as smooth as my Getzen 3508, but close.

I heard it said here on the forum that different slides favor different lubricants. That certainly seems to be the case.

[ithinknot]

I heard it said here on the forum that different slides favor different lubricants. That certainly seems to be the case.

... or the cleaning and polishing did its job

Glad it's working better.

(Also, Yamasnot works better (on multiple horns) than S-o-MRC, IME and FWIW... worth a try some time.)

[MBeal]

... or the cleaning and polishing did its job

I don't think it was the cleaning/polishing since I'd already tried that a couple times previously.

I'll try out the Yamaha cream at some point too. (I think I may actually have some since I tried that out on my tenor at one point before going back to Formula 3.)

[ithinknot]

I'll try out the Yamaha cream at some point too. (I think I may actually have some since I tried that out on my tenor at one point before going back to Formula 3.)

Not the Yamaha cream, the liquid in the cylindrical bottle labelled 'Trombone Slide Lubricant'.

Often listed by retailers as 'oil' which, of the many things it is, isn't one

[MBeal]

Not the Yamaha cream, the liquid in the cylindrical bottle labelled 'Trombone Slide Lubricant'.

Often listed by retailers as 'oil' which, of the many things it is, isn't one

Ah, thanks for clarifying. I’ll check that out.