Large-Bore Altos

[derekcgullett]

Hey everyone!

I’ve heard some about large-bore altos but don’t know too much about them. I’m wondering what everyone here knows about them. Like who all makes (or made) them? I’d love to try one some day and see how it differs from what I’m used to.

What kind of bore size is “common” (if any size is common) for large-bore altos. There may not be a common bore size since this kind of instrument doesn’t appear to be all that standard, but I’ve heard of stuff with .525” and .547” bore sizes.

Also what would be a practical use for them? The only things that come to mind would be using it on top to maybe balance out a section with a .547” tenor and .562” bass and maybe for some of Bruckner’s choral music.

Please educate me!

Thank you!

[Burgerbob]

I have a friend with a .547 Pfretzschner alto. It sounds like an alto, just warmer. Not a massive "large bore" sound like you might think, just a warm, beautiful alto sound. It works everywhere he uses it!

[Doug Elliott]

I don't own one of those but I've played them and that is correct. You'd never guess it was .547.

[Finetales]

Straight .547 is the most common for large bore altos (if you can call that "common"). I won't give my B&S Erde .547 alto spiel again because I've lost count how many times I've mentioned it before, but suffice it to say a big alto like that sounds unbelievable playing alto excerpts (Brahms 2 for example) with a modern .547 tenor and .562 bass in the section. As mentioned, still sounds like an alto, just like a .547 tenor still sounds like a tenor. It's awesome.

[brassmedic]

I tried a vintage .547 alto and it sounded beautiful. Not like a tenor at all. And I immediately thought "Brahms".

[Elow]

What mouthpiece sizes felt appropriate?

[Matt K]

I have a Wessex 525/547 from when they were still offering it. I quite like it. It plays pretty well in tune, feels a lot more open than most smaller altos, but still sounds very distinctly alto. I'm having a Bb attachment put on it... pretty excited about that. Should be done sometime around August, will make sure to post it when I get it. Unsurprisingly, leadpipe choice seems to be really important. I don't like the stock ones that came with it but a Conn 52H pipe works really well for me in it. The receiver is slightly too tight to have a large shank mouthpiece but eventually, I'd like to try to swap that out eventually and see what that sounds like... bearing in mind that I have basically no use for an alto in the way it's used by 99% of people. No Albrechtsberger performances planned for me

[Burgerbob]

What mouthpiece sizes felt appropriate?

My friend plays his with a Bach NY 7.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

I own two "large bore" altos. One is the Schiller alto that Jim Laab's music store has been selling for several years:
https://www.jimlaabsmusicstore.com/stor ... rombone-2/
The original slide (I think it was a dual-bore .523-.547) was horrible and the metal was not very cooperative when I attempted to align it properly. Thus, I built a new dual-bore nickel slide with Bach 36 and 42 inner and outer tubes (.525-.547 bore) for it. The horn plays fantastic now. It does not feel larger than my alto trombones that have a sub .500 bore. However, the leadpipe I use on that horn is particularly long.....about 14 inches.

I have another large bore alto that plays even better. It is a Pfretzschner bell that I picked up at his shop in Markneukirken in 1999 and I added an King rotary valve section that I think is in the .532 inch bore range. The slide section on that horn is also a .525-.547 dual bore nickel that I made with Bach parts. However, the slide section on this horn is a little longer because the bell section is about 1 inch shorter. Even though the Pfretzschner bell has a fast and wide taper, it still plays effortlessly and has great clarity like the assorted smaller bore altos. The sound on this horn is slightly warmer than the Schiller, but still very much a traditional alto sound.

In my opinion, alto trombones are extremely sensitive to leadpipe/mouthpiece combinations. I tried for years to find a mouthpiece that would work for me on alto. Finally, Doug Elliott helped me experiment with several combinations of mouthpiece components and I was able find a set-up that gave me the clarity and articulation that I was desiring. Doug really understands how the shank/throat/backbore impact the alto trombone. However, endurance turned out to be a lingering problem for me on alto.

Completely by accident, I stumbled upon an ugly old Bach 7C that had assorted modifications (shape of rim, bottom of cup and throat opened, etc...) and I settled on that mouthpiece for my alto playing. It helped me get the clarity of sound/articulation AND I gained the endurance on alto that had evaded me for years. I am very lucky that my modified 7C works on ALL of my altos.

[harrisonreed]

That Schiller looks like the Thein one. Interesting that they call it a Eb/F.

I'll echo the comment about Doug Elliott. For alto, the XT A and B cups with the normal A and B alto shanks are the BEST alto mouthpieces I have ever played. I am not sure if those shanks are right for a large bore alto or not. I'm assuming they take small shank mouthpieces.

[Finetales]

I have a Wessex 525/547 from when they were still offering it.

Man, I've been trying to find one of those forever. I loved how it played when I tried one, and by the time I was financially ready to buy one they had stopped making them. Either everyone loves theirs enough to never sell it or they sold very few because they seem to never come up for sale.

Incidentally, I E-mailed Wessex about it and was told they discontinued it to make way for a new model with a valve they were developing. That and the Bb/F soprano trombone seem like one of many things they shelved to just focus on the tubas again.

[heinzgries]

i play a large bore Helmut Voigt alto with a shortened Bach 36 slide. Straight .525 bore. Great combination

[Crazy4Tbone86]

That Schiller looks like the Thein one. Interesting that they call it a Eb/F.

I'll echo the comment about Doug Elliott. For alto, the XT A and B cups with the normal A and B alto shanks are the BEST alto mouthpieces I have ever played. I am not sure if those shanks are right for a large bore alto or not. I'm assuming they take small shank mouthpieces.

Yes, that inaccurate advertising (stating it was an Eb/F trombone) threw me off when I saw it years ago. The valve has a strange wrap which was mostly hidden in their photographs. I couldn’t tell if it was an ascending valve model or just a regular Bb valve. I remember calling the store and asking one of the sales people to measure the length of the attachment tubing. From the numbers, I was able to conclude that it was a Bb valve. Well…..actually the valve was almost in A! I needed to trim the attachment tubing to make it work as a Bb valve.

[harrisonreed]

Yes, that inaccurate advertising (stating it was an Eb/F trombone) threw me off when I saw it years ago. The valve has a strange wrap which was mostly hidden in their photographs. I couldn’t tell if it was an ascending valve model or just a regular Bb valve. I remember calling the store and asking one of the sales people to measure the length of the attachment tubing. From the numbers, I was able to conclude that it was a Bb valve. Well…..actually the valve was almost in A! I needed to trim the attachment tubing to make it work as a Bb valve.

How far did you have the main tuning slide pulled out? You probably already know this, but for the sake of the forum, a lot of trombones in general are originally designed to be played long on the slide (accurate Chinese copies included), so when people pull the tuning slide to have the short first position they are used to be in tune, the attachment isn't long enough to compensate. Bass trombonists were complaining about this on the old forum but they were playing with the main side pulled two inches or more -- no wonder the F attachment was too long. The 36H alto, too -- with Db in tune at the bell the tuning side will be pushed in all the way, 7 positions available, and Eb is maybe 1.5 inches out from the bumpers. Tune Eb to be in tune with hand slide all the way in, and the tuning slide will be pulled 1.5 inches out, and the Bb attachment won't work.

Pushing in the tuning slide has the added benefit of reducing the length of the cylindrical length in the bell section, which helps partials line up better and helps the horn feel better, and it's like a cheapo "sort-of-TIS" hack. On altos the benefits are HUGE. I call it the TIH mechanism.

[Matt K]

My experience matches Harrisons 100%. I believe my tech will actually be removing tuning from my Wessex entirely to add the valve. My 36H always had the main TS in all the way too.

Man, I've been trying to find one of those forever. I loved how it played when I tried one, and by the time I was financially ready to buy one they had stopped making them. Either everyone loves theirs enough to never sell it or they sold very few because they seem to never come up for sale.

Incidentally, I E-mailed Wessex about it and was told they discontinued it to make way for a new model with a valve they were developing. That and the Bb/F soprano trombone seem like one of many things they shelved to just focus on the tubas again.

Yeah it's a little surprising; the price point wasn't much higher than the JinBao but they played way better without needing to have the pipe removed. I would have recommended them to anyone over the JinBao models, especially having now owned 3 of the JB over the years.

Side note though: They still were built very cheaply. When my tech removed the bell he said the lower bell brace was a different width than the tuning slide (wider, probably a tenor bell brace) and was clearly forced to fit there with a ton of solder. Just having someone assemble it with a bell brace thats the right distance would probably make any of the ones you find play 2x as good.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Actually Harrison, my instincts with all trombones is exactly the opposite. The mouthpiece I use for most of my playing (which is on a .547 bore) is huge by all standards. It is custom-made and the rim would probably be called a 1 3/4 G if Bach had such a size. Since my mouthpiece is so large, I tend to play flat on every instrument. On many of my horns, I have needed to cut 1/4 to 1/2 inch off the main tuning slide. Thus, I instinctively push the tuning slide IN all of the way on any trombone that I am trying and I hope that I might be able to play at A = 440. This habit has transferred to all trombones that I try, alto and bass included.

On the Schiller alto, I don't think they calculated the Bb attachment tubing length correctly. Even with extreme face contortions, I was never able to get the low trigger Bb anywhere close to pitch with the attachment tubing all of the way in. I remember the trigger C was exceptionally flat as well, so it wasn't a situation in which only the 2nd partial was flat with the trigger.

I just remembered another quirky thing about the Schiller alto. The position of the original thumb lever was ridiculously far away from my palm when I held the horn. I think I removed about 3/4 inch of length on the trigger reach when I fabricated a new thumb lever. The modification ended up being a "double win" because the lever fit my hand better and the "throw" of the lever was significantly reduced.

[Matt K]

What depth are you playing on that? I have an Elliott LB C and LB D cup that I use with an LB111 and LB114 from time to time. Initially it was so that I could practice the rim size on a lighter horn in my apartment... since the bass practice mute makes it rather heavy etc and I was just playing flexibilities... being able to pop a 114 on my straight smallbore or even alto at the time was quite convenient. I have the same pitch tendencies on that as the XT104N I normally play, but I also play basically the same underpart.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if the Schiller had wrong length tubing.

[harrisonreed]

Since I was taking about pushing the tuning slide in all the way, you and I have the same experience then. A wide rim shouldn't make the instrument flat, but a long mouthpiece or deep cup might. I play a 2Gish rim on everything, but use relatively shallow cup depths, and I use a very shallow cup on alto. Sounds like you're on the money about the BB attachment being too long. The only other thing I can think of is trying the Bb with the hand slide completely closed, but I'm sure that is what you're already doing.

[Burgerbob]

Pushing the main tuning slide in all the way will make the Bb attachment MORE flat rather than less, assuming you didn't move the Bb attachment. More tubing proportional to the entire instrument.

[harrisonreed]

Pushing the main tuning slide in all the way will make the Bb attachment MORE flat rather than less, assuming you didn't move the Bb attachment. More tubing proportional to the entire instrument.

I don't think you're right with this one, or at least that the concept of proportions doesn't apply to this situation - it's not about proportions, it's about total length. Simple experiment: push your F attachment all the way in, and pull your main tuning side all the way out. With a tuner, record your "F" pitch on the attachment in first position. Now push the main tuning slide in all the way and play the same note, with the handslide in the same place. It will be significantly more sharp. You just made the F attachment sharper, not flatter. It's less tubing period, across the entire instrument.

Let's take a tenor -- The shorter the Bb bell section, the longer the F must be pulled to compensate. This is why bass trombonists on the old forum were complaining that their F attachments were too long -- they all were playing with their main tuning slides pulled out quite a ways, and the F attachment couldn't compensate. The F attachment and main tuning slide are connected as one length of tubing. The handslide is also part of that tubing, so if you make your instrument as sharp as possible, you can still play in tune by playing long on the slide, or make the "F attachment" even sharper by playing short on the slide.

He's saying the Bb attachment, even when the attachment pushed in all the way, is in A. The only way to shorten the total length without cutting it is to push the main tuning slide all the way in, too. If it is still flat with the tuning slide all the way in, the handslide all the way in, and the attachment all the way in, the attachment is too long (which is what he is saying).

[Burgerbob]

He's saying the Bb attachment, even when the attachment pushed in all the way, is in A. The only way to shorten the total length without cutting it is to push the main tuning slide all the way in, too. If it is still flat with the tuning slide all the way in, the handslide all the way in, and the attachment all the way in, the attachment is too long (which is what he is saying).

Exactly.

But I still don't agree, the F side will proportionally tuned with the instrument. If I have to kick out the main tuning slide for whatever reason, I have to kick out the F (and D) slides a bit too, or they are sharp. It's all proportional.

[harrisonreed]

He's saying the Bb attachment, even when the attachment pushed in all the way, is in A. The only way to shorten the total length without cutting it is to push the main tuning slide all the way in, too. If it is still flat with the tuning slide all the way in, the handslide all the way in, and the attachment all the way in, the attachment is too long (which is what he is saying).

Exactly.

But I still don't agree, the F side will proportionally tuned with the instrument. If I have to kick out the main tuning slide for whatever reason, I have to kick out the F (and D) slides a bit too, or they are sharp. It's all proportional.

Interesting! I'll have to try with my tuner. The further in I push the main tuning slide, the further I have to pull the F attachment out. If I pull the main tuning slide, the F attachment goes in.

I wonder if it is related to temperature?

[Burgerbob]

I wonder if it is related to temperature?

Temperature is the only reason I really have to pull out the tuning slide on most horns, so probably.

[heinzgries]

i have also a large bore F - alto from Pfretschner, realy bore .525/.547 ! Nice alto with a good 7th position.
Warm sound but not like a small tenor