How to choose a trombone

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Peacemate
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How to choose a trombone

Post by Peacemate »

So recently I've found the need and/or desire to get a bass trombone, and the two options I have are an Olds S-24G or a Conn 62H, dependent and presumably the refreshed Conn-Selmer version.

So how do I pick one? Is the smaller independent the correct choice, or should I get the more modern 62H and sacrifice the independent valves? Should I get the Olds and replace the valves and linkage at a later point, or should I get the 62H and make it independent in the future, if need arises?

I am just looking for peoples opinion on the matter, since I honestly am not experienced enough in the art of trombone acquisition. For reference I currently play a Conn 88HN, a King 3b and soon a BBb tuba. I am okay with it if this thread also evolves into some kind of reasoning method for picking horns based on ones current arsenal.
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Vegasbound
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Re: How to choose a trombone

Post by Vegasbound »

Pick one you enjoy playing
Peacemate
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Re: How to choose a trombone

Post by Peacemate »

Vegasbound wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:30 am Pick one you enjoy playing
Well, you see, they are far enough away that I can't really try either of them without either having worn myself out on the trip or booking an overnight stay, and I won't know how they will mesh with my classical-ish ensembles because school doesn't run over summer. Doesn't help that the shop seems to have the narrowest opening hours in the world, and aren't open over the weekends.
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Vegasbound
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Re: How to choose a trombone

Post by Vegasbound »

Then are there bass bone players you know, whose horns you can try and whose brains you can pick? Can your practice take adding another instrument as you play 3 already?

Your a student so what does your teacher say?
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Re: How to choose a trombone

Post by MStarke »

This is certainly very individual, but...
In this case I would probably consider the following points (assuming they are in a comparable price range and you cannot really test them before buying):
- The Olds is probably older and potentially requiring (more) repair/adjustment from the start
- The Conn (assuming it's the "new" iteration) is certainly easier to get any repair and parts (if needed at some point)
- Are you really settled on independent/Why are you aiming for independent? I have been playing bass (partly professional) for the last 20 years and although I currently have two independent basses I would also take a dependent one and am pretty sure that it wouldn't limit me too much
- I would not buy a dependent when I already know I would want to switch it to independent. Most likely you would be able to find an independent Conn at some point
- I personally play (among others) a modern 88ht and a 112h with a 62h slide. To me they feel relatively close for a tenor and bass which might be another argument for the 62h
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hyperbolica
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Re: How to choose a trombone

Post by hyperbolica »

The S24 is known for having somewhat small and quirky valves (internal springs) and a heavy slide. The 62h, assuming it was made in the last 40 years, is a more conventional design, and I think a safer bet. The dependent/independent is more a philosophy question, and if you don't have a strong opinion, then it shouldn't matter. Both horns will sound nice, but the Olds may be more quirky overall.

Selecting horns you can't play is tricky. You have to consider condition and reputation of seller. You might be happier with an inferior horn if it is less hassle. Maybe you care about lacquer, and maybe you don't. Cost certainly figures in. Replacement parts already mentioned.

I've owned a couple of horns like the Olds, and they play great when pushed. The 62h has a great reputation for the vintage horn, and more variable for the modern ones.

Without knowing your situation or anything about the horns, I'd pick the Conn.
Last edited by hyperbolica on Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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spencercarran
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Re: How to choose a trombone

Post by spencercarran »

62H is more of a known entity and is more likely to help you produce the sort of sounds that are expected of a modern bass trombone.

Dependent valves are slightly less convenient than independent in some contexts, but they're fine. You can still play everything you need to with them.
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ithinknot
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Re: How to choose a trombone

Post by ithinknot »

You're talking about spending quite a lot of money. Often it's worth spending slightly more money to avoid making expensive mistakes.

There's no scenario I can imagine where these two are the only options you have.

If you're unable to try anything in person, then you're still free to mail order from anywhere (at least in the EU, if you want to avoid customs fees).

If the question is then 'what's a sensible used bass for a newbie to buy sight unseen'... certainly not an Olds (vintage, not exactly 'middle of the road' and, for the same reasons, comparatively hard to sell on if you don't like it). But you might hate the Conn - some ergonomic things are customizable, some aren't, or this particular one might just stink. (Or it might be great.)

I don't know your circumstances, but compare the cost of an overnight stay in a place where you can try lots of instruments to the 150-200 EUR minimum you're going to end up spending servicing a used instrument even if it doesn't need specific repairs. (Plus it's educational and fun, so...?)

But if you really can't do this, order a Yamaha YBL620/830/Conn 112H/62H(I)/Rath R900 from Thomann and be prepared to use the 30-day return. Convenience has a price, one way or another.

More broadly, we've all been through this process at some point, whether it's with instruments, cars, unicorns, professional tools of one kind or another...

Someone in the know tells you 'anything below $$$$ is going to be a crapshoot', and you think 'I can't possibly afford/justify spending more than half that' ... so you run into some locally available 'opportunity', for the first few weeks/months you're happy because you don't know any better, and then you're left with something of sufficiently low value that you inevitably lose out further on repairs or ongoing depreciation - or something decent, but just not suited to your particular needs - ... and, once you eventually shift it, you then spend exactly as much as you were originally advised.

(Of course there are occasional lucky bargains out there, but there's a reason you need luck. You'll find that the less you rush, the luckier you get.)
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Re: How to choose a trombone

Post by imsevimse »

I have many horns and among them I have a vintage Conn 62H and an Olds P-24G. The P-24G has improved and larger valves compared to the S-24.

If I compare the two I would definitely pick the Conn because of better sound and usability because the Conn would be my choice for classical music. In a big band I could use either one. Inline is not that important to me. I have not seen a part I could not play equally well on a dependant.

I'm lucky I have both and don't need to choose for life. If I'm not pleased one rehearsal I can change horn to next rehearsal.

Best is try.

/Tom
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Matt K
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Re: How to choose a trombone

Post by Matt K »

Having played dependent for a little over a decade and finally getting an independent... oh man I can't imagine going back. Just so much more utility. I almost hate to recommend it but a Mack Brass or Wessex might be another good option for you to start out on as it won't necessarily break the bank. It's a copy of a Yamaha 830, so it can fit in either commercial or classical pretty well...

If you put a budget out you might be able to get something here too, in the classifieds. There's nothing wrong with dependent either but you might suddenly find your options expanding and you may even find someone local who knows of something or even has something.
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Re: How to choose a trombone

Post by sacfxdx »

If you can not play before buying then you can buy anywhere. List your budget here and you may get some options/offers for different horns. There are lots of basses online.
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Re: How to choose a trombone

Post by btone »

I basically agree with Ithinknot. Don't just buy something unless you have a lot of money to spend making mistakes and getting rid of horns and getting more. Tom above was talking about the old model 62H which would be a no-brainer. But I don't think that's the instrument we are talking about here. My experience with the new model dependent 62h is that it plays well and is a middle-of-the-road modern sound choice but in your hand, or when you're picking it up off the trombone stand to your shoulder, the balance feels kind of weird due to the valve wrap. It is a bit heavy towards the left side and feels out of balance in your hand as you lift it. It played fine but I wasn't in love with it and sold it. You need something you love so you have to try some horns to find out what you like. Barring that, a Yamaha would probably be a pretty safe choice, as mentioned above.
Peacemate
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Re: How to choose a trombone

Post by Peacemate »

btone wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:08 pm Don't just buy something unless you have a lot of money to spend making mistakes and getting rid of horns and getting more.
That's very much my style, while only loosing a tiny bit. I won't become a bass trombonist, I will only become a trombonist with a wider envelope. I don't need the crème de la crème, I just need a bass trombone, and want the best one I can get for my miniscule amount of cash.
MStarke wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:03 am - Are you really settled on independent/Why are you aiming for independent? I have been playing bass (partly professional) for the last 20 years and although I currently have two independent basses I would also take a dependent one and am pretty sure that it wouldn't limit me too much
- I would not buy a dependent when I already know I would want to switch it to independent. Most likely you would be able to find an independent Conn at some point
I don't necessarily know that I want independent, I just know that an independent would give me more options and potentially get me used to it before moving on to higher end basses, which today are mostly indy, but I do realize that the difference between indy and non-indy is pretty minor in terms of versatility.
ithinknot wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:22 am You're talking about spending quite a lot of money. Often it's worth spending slightly more money to avoid making expensive mistakes.

There's no scenario I can imagine where these two are the only options you have.

I don't know your circumstances, but compare the cost of an overnight stay in a place where you can try lots of instruments to the 150-200 EUR minimum you're going to end up spending servicing a used instrument even if it doesn't need specific repairs. (Plus it's educational and fun, so...?)

But if you really can't do this, order a Yamaha YBL620/830/Conn 112H/62H(I)/Rath R900 from Thomann and be prepared to use the 30-day return. Convenience has a price, one way or another.
I am talking about, to me, what is a decently large sum, but in the end it is pretty narrow for what I want. Approximately 13 000 SEK or less, so less than $1600 if I had been American. You can't really get anything, new or used, for that, especially not in a country where tax is already included in the price.

Only two within my budget range, since I definitely don't want to go around spending 1.5x as much just to get a TR181 that looks like it's been beat to hell and back, even though I don't care about lacquer. I also can't reasonably go around google translating every European website, so I can only look in the nearest couple of countries whose languages I understand.

I try to do my own servicing, and I would be buying from a shop with a decent reputation and an in-store repairman, so it wouldn't be any issue either way.

A new Conn 112H is quite literally 3x the price of the 62H, and I honestly don't think I could take the pressure of a brand new instrument. I already have nightmares about damaging my trombone, I don't want any more of it.




Very thankful for all the help everyone, I think I'll get the 62H simply because it is more modern, more repairable, and $70 cheaper. Every penny counts. Feel free to try to convince me of your opinion though, I'd love to hear it.
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Re: How to choose a trombone

Post by MrHCinDE »

How fixed are you on the idea of two valves?

As you say, you don't plan to become a bass trombonist, only to have a wider envelope, presumably for more playing opportunites. It comes down to how much you value sound/slide action over the convenience of a 2nd valve and if you want the best sounding instrument for your budget. Perhaps your aim is to learn how to use the 2nd valve and play a lot of modern technical literature, in which case you may have to compromise on sound/slide/prestige (buying a cheap indepenent bass) or find the middle ground of a decent dependent bass which is where you seem to be at the moment.

If you're already thinking you would want to convert a dependent bass into an independent, why not start with a used single valved bass that would be a good candidate for a 2nd valve at a later date? You could use the time to develop a great bass trombone sound and be enjoy playing 99% of any repertoire you're likely to encounter as a non-specialst whilst saving up for the conversion. Instead of a conversion, you could also trade or sell the single valved bass to fund a double valved one without really losing much if you buy wisely and have a bit of luck.

If you're really set on the idea of a two valves, I have a usable but unspectacular Wessex independent bass (Bb/F/Gb/D) with axial flow valves in used condition for about half of your budget. I'm in Germany btw. and shipping would be no problem. If you're interested, feel free to pm.
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Re: How to choose a trombone

Post by Peacemate »

MrHCinDE wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:32 am How fixed are you on the idea of two valves?

As you say, you don't plan to become a bass trombonist, only to have a wider envelope, presumably for more playing opportunites. It comes down to how much you value sound/slide action over the convenience of a 2nd valve and if you want the best sounding instrument for your budget. Perhaps your aim is to learn how to use the 2nd valve and play a lot of modern technical literature, in which case you may have to compromise on sound/slide/prestige (buying a cheap indepenent bass) or find the middle ground of a decent dependent bass which is where you seem to be at the moment.

If you're already thinking you would want to convert a dependent bass into an independent, why not start with a used single valved bass that would be a good candidate for a 2nd valve at a later date? You could use the time to develop a great bass trombone sound and be enjoy playing 99% of any repertoire you're likely to encounter as a non-specialst whilst saving up for the conversion. Instead of a conversion, you could also trade or sell the single valved bass to fund a double valved one without really losing much if you buy wisely and have a bit of luck.

If you're really set on the idea of a two valves, I have a usable but unspectacular Wessex independent bass (Bb/F/Gb/D) with axial flow valves in used condition for about half of your budget. I'm in Germany btw. and shipping would be no problem. If you're interested, feel free to pm.
The reason for not wanting a single is just that I already have a pretty spectacular 88H, which is close enough (in my mind) when playing with a 1.5G to a real bass in my current playing situations (read as once a week with a very simple arrangements), and having another single would just annoy the bejesus out of me. I also don't want to go through the process of finding a good tech, even though I love seeing the cool solutions and wraps by them.

Honestly having a Wessex would be interesting. Axials are just too cool for me to pass up, and I have wanted some for a good while now. Expect a PM coming your way soon, for sure.
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ithinknot
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Re: How to choose a trombone

Post by ithinknot »

Peacemate wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:15 pm Approximately 13 000 SEK
Pretty close, and you can submit offers: https://www.ebay.de/itm/224479791089
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Re: How to choose a trombone

Post by Peacemate »

ithinknot wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:16 pm
Peacemate wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:15 pm Approximately 13 000 SEK
Pretty close, and you can submit offers: https://www.ebay.de/itm/224479791089
That is in the same style as the 62H, so it still stands between modern dependent or aged independent (or newish chinese independent). It doesn't really matter if my options are infinite if all of them fall within the same categories, and asking Yama 612 vs 62H I would say that it is equal between the two, considering that I have no preference and their basic specifications are the same (modern valves, .562 bore, dependent).
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Re: How to choose a trombone

Post by jtbandmusic »

I played a P24G my last year in college. Brand new. IMHO, this is hands down the worst trombone I ever played. Sorry. Years later, I chanced onto a Elkhart 60H. the single valve version of the 62H. This is one of the BEST horns I have ever played. Light, comfortable to hold, easy to control. No contest.

Search my comments on the P24G on the list here.

Just one last caution: I bought my Olds at the end of Olds' run, and the mouthpiece receiver was far too small to fit any standard piece like a Bach or Shilke. If you try the Olds, take your favorite mouthpiece and check carefully with a tuner.

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Re: How to choose a trombone

Post by deanmccarty »

I am just now seeing this thread… I have played both of these model basses… in my opinion, without a doubt the Conn is a better choice… the valves on the Olds that I played were quirky, and the sound was a little bright for me. The Conn is a solid instrument.

As for dependent vs. independent… they both have advantages. Independent gives you a large number of alternate positions… dependent, for me (even with the newer valves) just blows better, and the sound is just better. This is the reason I play dependent setups on bass. I have owned independent Conns, Bach, Holton, and Shires. I have owned dependent King, Shires, and Rath (my current instrument). I have also owned single rotor basses which were great. I would not go the single rotor route… I also would not go with a brand like Wessex… the longevity of those instrument is just not going to hold up like the Olds or Conn that you are looking at.

I am not in the majority on my valve setup, but there are many notable players who play, or have played, primarily on dependent setups. If you’re set on these two instruments I would say get the Conn… you won’t be disappointed.
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Re: How to choose a trombone

Post by Vegastokc »

Peacemate wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:28 am So how do I pick one?...
The trombone choses the wizard Mr Potter. It's not always clear why.
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Re: How to choose a trombone

Post by sirisobhakya »

If you don’t expect to be a virtuoso on bass trombone, dependent is fine. I played with semi-pro band and help teach school band for around 5 years now and have not yet encountered a “must have indy” passage once; just ones that is a little more convenient with it.

So with that criteria out of question, you will have a much wider choices. My advice would be similar to those of MStarke: modern is usually better because of design philosophy, serviceability, and overall build technology and quality, and it being potentially in better condition.

YBL-620G is quite good modern dependent, much better than YBL-611/612 which has a 10 inch bell and a more diffused sound. Getzen also makes decent horns. Both should be available in second-hand market.

I also advise AGAINST a Wessex if (and only if) you have enough money and are willing to spend it. Wessex is decent enough, but it is not “great”. Some parts still have characteristics of Chinese-made horn, such as all-nickel silver tuning slides not polished to the standard of normal makers and feels rough, the rotors are not in perfect alignment, along with other minor details. I have two Wessex horns (a German tenor horn and a Kaiserbariton), both have the aforementioned issues. They are not unplayable, actually I love the Kaiserbariton, but a second hand standard horn would be far better.
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