Tenor/alto in Db

[heinzgries]

I have an old C tenor trombone bell section, yes C tuning, from Reisser. The slide section was lost. So i put a Bach 39 alto slide on the bell, its fit. The result was a tenor/alto trombone pitched in Db.
The lines up are perfect in tune. The tuning slide is all the way in.
The sound is like a small tenor or a big bore alto with a large mouthpiece
I dont know what i wil do with this frankenbone in the future, but it was a nice, curios and a surprising project.

[Finetales]

How many positions does it give in Db? 6?

[CalgaryTbone]

My teacher, Ed Herman (the former NY Phil. principal) had a D flat alto w/a B flat valve that he found on tour in Germany. He assumed it was cut down from a tenor. Like most of his generation, he didn't really play alto, but he fooled around on his and may have played the Berg - Three Pieces opening on it at one time. He said that the D flat key was handy for reading when you weren't familiar w/alto - you could read alto clef as if it was tenor clef (tenor positions). I heard that John Marcellus had one of the old tuning-in-slide Conn altos (35H) that was a bit flat even with the tuning all the way in, so he pulled the tuning mechanism all the way out and played it in D (with 6 positions). Except for the reading issues, I've often thought it would be kind of fun to play some altos in different keys, sort of like what trumpets do. There could be certain passages that would lay so much better on an instrument in a different key - probably more work to learn the different horn than to practice enough to play that passage on an E flat alto.

Jim

[Kdanielsen]

You should call it the baritone trombone.

[BGuttman]

Stewbones had his Conn 36H lengthened to be in D (I believe the tuning slide is almost long enough as is, but a little longer made all the difference. Then he tunes his attachment to A. Similar to your Db, he reads alto clef as tenor clef (for the positions). I'm sure he could explain it much better (hope he checks in here). I thought of trying that with my Conn 36H, but never had the time or inclination to really work it.

[Tbarh]

It May be too early in the morning for me here in the Norway, but doesnt an alto in D mens that You can play alto clef like tenor clef..?

[brassmedic]

You should call it the baritone trombone.

[brassmedic]

It May be too early in the morning for me here in the Norway, but doesnt an alto in D mens that You can play alto clef like tenor clef..?

Yes, but not Db

[Tbarh]

It May be too early in the morning for me here in the Norway, but doesnt an alto in D mens that You can play alto clef like tenor clef..?

Yes, but not Db

Duh!! . Didnt read before i thunk!
An alto in D could be useful, but Db... Would be a bit too mindboggling for me..

[imsevimse]

It May be too early in the morning for me here in the Norway, but doesnt an alto in D mens that You can play alto clef like tenor clef..?

If I play my Bach 39 with a larger mouthpiece and pull the tuningslide as far as it goes then it can be played as an alto in D and I can read alto-parts as if they were in tenor clef. To do that I also need to add four flats. If the alto clef-part is in C I read it like a tenor-clef in Ab and add four flats. If alto-clef part is in g (one sharp) then I add four flats and play the part reading as a tenor-clef with three flats in eb.

In D the horn has only 6 positions. I lose the low eb/d# I have on the open horn in Eb and that note might be needed. The larger mouthpiece I need to make it flat enough for D is also a drawback. I have never played my alto in D in public

/Tom

[EdwardSolomon]

According to Lavignac (1927), the French were producing alto trombones in D flat, soprano trombones in F, and piccolo trombones in B flat. We would today classify the alto trombone as being produced in F, E, E flat, D, or D flat. The French "trombone piccolo" is what we refer to as a B flat soprano trombone today.

[LeTromboniste]

According to Lavignac (1927), the French were producing alto trombones in D flat, soprano trombones in F, and piccolo trombones in B flat. We would today classify the alto trombone as being produced in F, E, E flat, D, or D flat. The French "trombone piccolo" is what we refer to as a B flat soprano trombone today.

He's not really saying that the French are producing those. He's presenting what he says are obsolete instrument that were used in the past (in some cases, long ago), except for the "new model" of alto in Db which seems to imply it was indeed made at the time.
He claims altos were built in F and E natural, and then Db. No mention of Eb, which is a bit suspicious. He also claims that Gluck wrote for soprano trombone, which is totally wrong, and that the soprano trombone Bach wrote for was is F, which is also wrong. That the slide trumpet Bach wrote for was supposedly also in F is very dubious.

[stewbones43]

Stewbones had his Conn 36H lengthened to be in D (I believe the tuning slide is almost long enough as is, but a little longer made all the difference. Then he tunes his attachment to A. Similar to your Db, he reads alto clef as tenor clef (for the positions). I'm sure he could explain it much better (hope he checks in here). I thought of trying that with my Conn 36H, but never had the time or inclination to really work it.

Hi Bruce and thanks for the mention.
The D pitched instrument is 12cm longer than the Eb so all I did was add two 6cm extension pieces to the tuning slide. I have just got 7 positions but 7th is so close to the end of the slide that it is unusable, hence the use of the 36H rather than the cheaper 34H. As Bruce said, the attachment tuning slide is pulled to A. It works!!!

Cheers

Stewbones43

PS I was going to question the idea of a Db alto being able to read using tenor clef/tenor trombone positions but some others have already done that.

[LeTromboniste]

Transposition should work for both. One requires adding 3 sharps, the other 4 flats.

[timothy42b]

No way I could do that. When I see alto or tenor clef I see notes in concert pitch, and try to play them with the correct fingering/position for whatever instrument I'm using.

Alto clef is no easier or harder on tenor vs alto, if I've been reading any recently. If i had a D alto it would be exactly the same, after I got used to playing concert pitch on a D alto in bass clef or concert pitch treble.

I had a D alto once. I built it out of CPVC plumbing tubing and measured wrong. It worked but wouldn't slot and the partials were off, mostly because the clearances were so large I think.

[heinzgries]

How many positions does it give in Db? 6?

if you pull out the slide so that it does nearly fall out, you can reach a very high 7th position. But this is unusable. Means only a solid 6th position. The d in the 7th is missing

[EdwardSolomon]

He's not really saying that the French are producing those. He's presenting what he says are obsolete instrument that were used in the past (in some cases, long ago), except for the "new model" of alto in Db which seems to imply it was indeed made at the time.

It is pretty clear from his descriptions of the lower pitched trombones that he is describing French custom and practice. This becomes more and more obvious when you hit the bass and contrabass trombones. The alto trombone (in whatever key) was completely obsolete by 1927. Indeed, it was already replaced by a tenor well before then, back in the 19th century. It was only really revived after WWII, save, perhaps, for a few German orchestras, where it may have lingered. What we understand as an alto trombone today has never been a particularly popular instrument enjoying widespread use. Our modern deployment really dates back to 1883, when the Vienna Phil adopted slide trombones after a brief valve trombone interregnum of some 50-odd years. That is where modern performance practice for works by composers such as Mozart, Schubert, and Beethoven dates from. Prior to then, it was also obsolete across most of Europe, at least in orchestras.

He claims altos were built in F and E natural, and then Db. No mention of Eb, which is a bit suspicious. He also claims that Gluck wrote for soprano trombone, which is totally wrong, and that the soprano trombone Bach wrote for was is F, which is also wrong. That the slide trumpet Bach wrote for was supposedly also in F is very dubious.

I agree the lack of an E flat alto in his description is suspect. However, I don't doubt for a moment that the rest of the points you make are incorrect by today's musicological standards, but may well have held as true back in 1927.

[heinzgries]

I had a D alto once. I built it out of CPVC plumbing tubing and measured wrong. It worked but wouldn't slot and the partials were off, mostly because the clearances were so large I think.

i think if you want an alto in D with all partials in tune, it must be an extra building instrument in this pitch. Adapting an Eb alto to D will always be a compromising. That my Db trombone have so a good tuning, was only luck and coincidence.

[CalgaryTbone]

Transposition should work for both. One requires adding 3 sharps, the other 4 flats.

Exactly! Either way, you have to switch around the key and some accidentals. Personally, either a D or D flat instrument would involve more work to get my head around than whatever benefits it would give me. I still find it interesting, in theory. I felt the same way when i tried a couple of F altos that were on the wall at Dillons some years ago. The F alto seemed like a nice fit for Beethoven 5, for instance, but I don't think I'd trust myself to play it in public.

Jim Scott

[brassmedic]

Transposition should work for both. One requires adding 3 sharps, the other 4 flats.

Oh, ok. Guess I was wrong about Db not working for that.

[LeTromboniste]

Transposition should work for both. One requires adding 3 sharps, the other 4 flats.

Exactly! Either way, you have to switch around the key and some accidentals. Personally, either a D or D flat instrument would involve more work to get my head around than whatever benefits it would give me. I still find it interesting, in theory. I felt the same way when i tried a couple of F altos that were on the wall at Dillons some years ago. The F alto seemed like a nice fit for Beethoven 5, for instance, but I don't think I'd trust myself to play it in public.

Jim Scott

I also very much think learning clefs is essential and that whatever transposition tricks are possible should not substitute basic clef reading skills, so I don't necessarily agree with using a D or D flat instrument just because it allows to bypass the clef. I did occasionally find myself in situations where combining transposition and imagining holding a tenor was a good solution (playing an alto in D at 466 with the orchestra playing in 415 and reading a part set by the editor in tenor clef was one of those "whatever works" moment)

He's not really saying that the French are producing those. He's presenting what he says are obsolete instrument that were used in the past (in some cases, long ago), except for the "new model" of alto in Db which seems to imply it was indeed made at the time.

It is pretty clear from his descriptions of the lower pitched trombones that he is describing French custom and practice. This becomes more and more obvious when you hit the bass and contrabass trombones. The alto trombone (in whatever key) was completely obsolete by 1927. Indeed, it was already replaced by a tenor well before then, back in the 19th century.

I'm not sure I follow. We agree that essentially everything except the tenor was obsolete in France for a long time, I just don't see how that can at the same time be meant to represent the practice. Either its describing a former practice (or, as it turns out, a somewhat erroneous understanding of past practice) or it's describing current French practice, but not both.

What we understand as an alto trombone today has never been a particularly popular instrument enjoying widespread use. Our modern deployment really dates back to 1883, when the Vienna Phil adopted slide trombones after a brief valve trombone interregnum of some 50-odd years. That is where modern performance practice for works by composers such as Mozart, Schubert, and Beethoven dates from. Prior to then, it was also obsolete across most of Europe, at least in orchestras.

I tend to be careful about such generalisation about the alto trombone. As much as the notion that the alto was ubiquitous throughout history is wrong and thus needs to stop being "common knowledge", I also think it's too simplistic to replace it with the idea that the Vienna Phil switch is where the modern practice started and the alto was essentially not used at all. It's much more complex than that. There were altos used in some fairly important places in Germany for much of the 19th century (in Leipzig and Berlin for example), and although rare, they weren't completely absent in France either. And for the classical trifecta, I don't think that case is settled yet. I'm not entirely convinced that it was not used in Vienna (there is compelling evidence that it was, yet also compelling evidence that it might not have been). Much of Mozart's sacred music was written in Salzburg anyway where they definitely used alto.

I agree the lack of an E flat alto in his description is suspect. However, I don't doubt for a moment that the rest of the points you make are incorrect by today's musicological standards, but may well have held as true back in 1927.

Oh absolutely. Incorrect by today's standards and held true back then. For instance the hypothesis that parts for cornetto were actually written for soprano trombone, absurd as it is, was accepted for a relatively long time. I'm not dissing him for writing that, just saying that that shows we have to take what he writes with a grain of salt. He's in those paragraphs clearly referencing (what he thinks were) practices of the past, and getting it wrong. So we should just be careful about we infer from it.

[LeTromboniste]

That being said there is also what appears to be an alto trombone in Db from 1813 by the Huschauer workshop in Vienna. It's not entirely clear if that instrument was originally in that key or was cut down, but if it is indeed original, that is an interesting precedent.