trombone in a balkan band

[grafemberg]

hi,
I m playing in a balkan band
I m currently the only trombone
we have a baritone and a couple of tenor saxophones. and PLENTY of trumpet alto & soprano sax.
baritone does the bass part. and he is very good at it.
I m almost a beginner, have a small bore cheap instrument and play the middle parts. counterpoints rythm accompainment and so on (they are important in our style of orchestration). sometimes tenors are helping me some other times they are get caught playing themes with everybody else.
no problem, I play hard and everybody can hear me but... I was thinking to get a "larger" bore to do a better job.

what do you think about?

maybe a .525 will do? I love straight trombones and hope to buy one without any F attachment. I play almost everything over the first C and usually way higher.

or have I to look for a .547 clasical one?

I m a beginner - sorry if this seems naive to you

PS I usually play in a 6 1/2 AL moithpiece

[BGuttman]

I hope Jacob Garchik finds this thread. He plays (played?) in a Balkan ensemble, although one much better balanced in instrumentation than yours.

As I mentioned in your other thread, a small bore will probably cut through the ensemble a lot better.

The requirements for your Balkan music sound like the requirements for a US Dixieland Band or a Jewish Klezmer ensemble.

If your group does a lot of dancing I'd recommend something pretty durable. The Olds Ambassador is built like a tank and can take a lot of abuse although most are 40 plus years old. Other similar instruments might include a Martin Imperial, Reynolds Medalist, or even a Yamaha 354. Note that in my avatar I'm playing a Martin Committee, which is very similar to the Imperial.


Going to a larger bore will mean you have to work a lot harder and may not be able to blow through the rest of the noise to express your part. I would think even a Medium Bore (.525) may be too big.

[grafemberg]

I understand what you say about having to blow too much.
I already have to blow fast staccatos for 5 minutes at least.. and that is half of the pieces we play.

I ll look into the models you mentioned, thank you very much for that.

and yes, we are not the usual balkan band with only brass (trumpet and horns). we started as a Lab so everyone is welcome!

check it out, if you like:

[jacobgarchik]

I would stick with the small bore. If your horn is bothering you get a better small bore. When I was playing a lot of this music I used mostly a Conn 4h with a 12c.
Most tenor horn players in the Balkans play small mouthpieces, quite a bit smaller than a 6 1/2al. But if that works for you, stick with it. There is a variety of instruments, bore sizes, and mouthpieces used throughout different regions, including valve trombones and tenor horns of various sizes.
The group sounds nice!

[grafemberg]

thank you Jacobgarchik, I have an 11c mouthpiece.. and I will give it a try.
I see that the Conn 4h has a small bell (7") is that right? what about it?
my usual online shop produces one with a 7"1/2 bell https://m.thomann.de/gb/thomann_probone ... ombone.htm

I'm glad you liked our video. it was our first studio record, we usually did a lot of street playing and dancing. I hope we ll get back to it one day soon.

[aboumaia]

...

[grafemberg]

thank you Aboumaia.

I usually play rythmic counterparts, kicks and sometimes simplified themes with the rest of the shrilling herd

so.. small bore it is!

PS: I love le Plus Petit Big Band...

[baileyman]

The Dusko Goykovich Sextet ‎– Swinging Macedonia (1967)

for some Balkan jazz:



BTW, I think his name is pronounced "Dushko Okevich"?

[aboumaia]

...

[BGuttman]

thank you Jacobgarchik, I have an 11c mouthpiece.. and I will give it a try.
I see that the Conn 4h has a small bell (7") is that right? what about it?
my usual online shop produces one with a 7"1/2 bell https://m.thomann.de/gb/thomann_probone ... ombone.htm

I'm glad you liked our video. it was our first studio record, we usually did a lot of street playing and dancing. I hope we ll get back to it one day soon.

I wouldn't get too hung up on bell size, although a large bell tends to make it harder to "cut" through the rest of the ensemble. You may find that an 8 inch (200 mm) bell is too big, but a lot depends on the design of the rest of the trombone.

A good lead jazz trombone like a King 2B, Bach 8, or even the Conn 4H is good. The ones I suggested are no longer made and would have to be found used.

Again, if you are going to do a lot of dancing and movement holding the trombone I suggest not getting an expensive and delicate instrument. My suggestion of student instruments is because they tend to be less expensive and easier to replace if you have a mishap during a show.

The Thomann looks OK, but seems a bit pricey, although since it's a new instrument I guess that's about right.

[grafemberg]

The Dusko Goykovich Sextet ‎– Swinging Macedonia (1967)

that is some kind of armonization! by the flutes(?)

thank you for posting it

[grafemberg]

we really use to play in the middle of the crowd, that is how we like it - so I'd rather keep the budget low. let's say 400-600$.

I learned a lot about trombone construction and functioning from this thread, thank you

[RolandJBarber]

From my tenure in an NYC Balkan band, I couldn't inagine a medium or large bore helping me...With the long stretches of staccato, melodies that ran all over the horn...and extended solo opportunities.. and low register punches ...across 3 sets a night...I was GLAD to be holding a small bore that projected when I needed.

I could NOT have done it on an AL cup.

I needed a well defined, articulate, moderately bright sound without having to huff and puff to get it. Especially with baritone as bass, I would be looking to throw some fire in the mix .. without having to be fff or schew/overblow the band. I like to save my dynamic exclamation points for choice monents and have something left for the 3rd set.

Faxx 7c or curry 6c or wick 7cs or getzen 6c might be good places to start towards a more efficient setup. And if you are looking for a cheap good horn, the king 606 usa (nickel silver outers like a 3b, but .500 bore is a solid choice. )

[MagnumH]

Is there something in particular you're looking to improve on? You say you'd like to do a "better job" but not what that means. Is it stamina? Sound quality? Tone? Also - what horn do you have now?

Some general advice (I don't play Balkan, but I do play a lot of New Orleans brass band stuff where the trombone has a similar-ish role).
I'd second the recommendation to stick at a .500 - .508 bore size. Large enough to give some meat and punch to the sound, but still small enough to give you a little extra stamina and the higher range. I used to play exclusively on a King 2B, but the move to the slightly larger bore gave me SO much more strength across the range, and just an overall fuller and more solid sound. A King 606 is an excellent shout for a horn, as is a used King 3B.

And yes, that 6.5AL is likely not helping you - a shallower cup would help. Something around the 7C size is probably better, or even a Bach 4C for a larger rim. Of course that also all depends on your embouchure and face structure, but that's a more advanced conversation. For a beginner, a 7C size is a great shout, and 11C might work too. For comfort over long gigs, consider a good plastic mouthpiece instead as well - a Kelly or a BRAND perhaps.

[grafemberg]

Doing a better job = having a better volume of sound not having to play fff all the time.
I come from string instruments were construction usually is the key to this issue.

reading all of your replies I understood I was aiming the wrong direction.

I already swapped the 6-1/2al for the 11c that I had. I ll get a 7c eventually.
also: is it the 12c so different from the 11c to be worth giving it a try?

my current trombone is the cheapest non plastic one I found a couple of years ago.
https://m.thomann.de/gb/startone_ssl45_tenorposaune.htm

it got me so far to love playing trombone.. it got all the bumps and dents of the beginner and still slides freely. I played it _everywere_

do you happen to know any good/reliable europe based web resource for used instruments (shop)?

thank you very much

[MagnumH]

swisstbone (on this forum) would be a good place to start - I think they normally have higher end instruments but they could have further recommendations. Thomann is an excellent store as well.

I’d recommend The Wind Section in the UK as well, but after Brexit the tax situation is likely to be difficult to negotiate.

I would suggest the 11c or 7c over the 12c, but ultimately whatever works best for you is the one to use!

[aboumaia]

...

[SwissTbone]

Thank you for mentioning my website!

I don't have anything which would suit the needs of the OP right now. But as always, I'm available to help finding something. Also happy to help evaluate something you see online.

[grafemberg]

thank you,

I found these:

https://www.ebay.it/itm/King-606-Trombo ... SwKTZfNP9W

https://www.ebay.it/itm/Olds-Ambassador ... SwMFhfykhW

https://www.ebay.it/itm/Boosey-Co-Perfe ... SwpF5eYjzC

what about the last one, 6 inches bell!
what is a pea-shooter ?

[BGuttman]

I'd be concerned about that last one.

1. It could be High Pitch (tuned to A=452 Hz) and will not play in tune with modern instruments.
2. As a friction fit it may come apart during your dancing (I have a few of these; ask me how I know ).

The 606 or Ambassador would be good choices. Also a Besson 2-20 or Holton Collegiate.

[Posaunus]

what about the last one, 6 inches bell!
what is a pea-shooter ?

A "pea-shooter" is a small tube used as a blowgun to send small projectiles (e.g., a wad of paper or a pea).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peashooter_(toy)

Very small-bore trombones are often condescendingly or jokingly called "pea-shooters" because of their small slides which resemble these toys.

[RJMason]

Trombones models being played by those I know who do a lot of Balkan stuff.

King 2B
King 3B
Conn 4H
Conn 6H
Martin Committee
Yamaha (354 and pro model)

For me the 6H worked the best, but I’m coming from large equipment so I like the 8 inch bell. Barely made it through 3 sets at Barbés with a Bach 36B once.

All can be bought for affordable prices. King Cleveland 605 and 606 would be a strong choice for a very affordable price.