Looking for C/Bb (or C/Bb/F) trombones

[hyperbolica]

I've long been fascinated with C/Bb instruments due to their compact size and different approach. They are generally marketed as children's trombones, but I think they have maybe more application for adults who want a smaller/lighter/more travel friendly instrument.

I've been recently looking to pick one up if I could find it used. Yamaha and the JinBao contingent (Schiller, JPacker) are the only tenors I could find.

The Gunter Frost model (C/Bb/F) from Jurgen Voigt, and some other German made models take the Idea into bass bones, where I think it has even more validity. They make use of the pedal range to improve the sound in the range where some bass bones don't sound so good (low C and B)

I have a donor instrument that I'd like to convert into a C/Bb/G/F indy small bass, but I think I'd like to get a C/Bb tenor to live with for a while first. Does anyone have a C/Bb tenor that you're not using and would like to sell? Or have any idea where I can find a reasonably inexpensive one? Or as a really far out request, does anyone know of a Gunter Frost model getting dusty in a closet somewhere?

[octavposaune]

This seems like a project for Gittleson/Long Island brass co...I am sure he could comvert one of his Baritone trombones into a C instrument. Good luck with your project.

[Arthurtwoshedsjackson]

Thomann also sells an inexpensive (presumably JinBao) clone.

https://m.thomannmusic.com/thomann_tf_3 ... 1614704548

I loved my YSL350C.

[Arvopart17]

I had not seen these before - they are listed as Bb/C though when I look at the JPrath site. Does that mean that the valve in open position routes through the attachment to be Bb with a short slide and when you depress the trigger the air bypasses the attachment and raises the horn to C? That would give you access to C and B but on a different harmonic series/partials than normal 6th and 7th position would. Am I completely misunderstanding this?

[hyperbolica]

I had not seen these before - they are listed as Bb/C though when I look at the JPrath site. Does that mean that the valve in open position routes through the attachment to be Bb with a short slide and when you depress the trigger the air bypasses the attachment and raises the horn to C? That would give you access to C and B but on a different harmonic series/partials than normal 6th and 7th position would. Am I completely misunderstanding this?

Yeah, I think you got it. A single valve doesn't get the low E because these are just 6 position slides. Presumably only 5 positions with the F valve engaged. It would kind of be like taking an Eb alto with a Bb valve and playing with the valve engaged all the time. And then the bass would add an F valve to that.

[elmsandr]

This is probably gonna be a DIY adventure. Also an interesting plan because you need to figure out where to cut length out of the horn. When you move where tapers and curves are in the horn, things can get weird. I'm also not sure I would stay with an inline version on a bass. Neckpipe is a decent place to trim a little length out and you need to not cut too much out of the slide or you'll lose a Db.

If I were to work on this, I'd probably draft it up a half dozen different ways just to give myself different thoughts. Something will either be way easier to do with existing parts or way more optimal from some design concept.

(this does remind me that I need to finish putting my Eb/Bb/G tenor back together).

Cheers,
Andy

[hyperbolica]

This is probably gonna be a DIY adventure. Also an interesting plan because you need to figure out where to cut length out of the horn. When you move where tapers and curves are in the horn, things can get weird. I'm also not sure I would stay with an inline version on a bass. Neckpipe is a decent place to trim a little length out and you need to not cut too much out of the slide or you'll lose a Db.

My initial thought is to remove all of the cylindrical parts of the tuning slide, mating the crook directly to the neckpipe and the bell stem. Then, since the slide is going to be apart anyway, I'd make it a TIS, and that leaves some flexibility in how to cut the slide. This gives a starting place where I don't have to sacrifice any neckpipe initially, and can creep up on the rest of the solution.

This is also part of the reason I wanted to get a tenor first, to get a feel for the balance and the slide length. Although the tenor keeps the tuning in the bell, at least I'd get the chance to play with a solution that seems to have worked for others.

[Posaunus]

Thomann also sells an inexpensive (presumably JinBao) clone.

https://m.thomannmusic.com/thomann_tf_3 ... 1614704548

Junior Trombone - 12.20mm bore (= 0.480")

[hyperbolica]

Thomann also sells an inexpensive (presumably JinBao) clone.

https://m.thomannmusic.com/thomann_tf_3 ... 1614704548

Junior Trombone - 12.20mm bore (= 0.480")

Hmmm. The Schilller is listed as 500/525, same as the Yamaha
https://www.schillerinstruments.com/tro ... r-trombone

[Arthurtwoshedsjackson]

Thomann also sells an inexpensive (presumably JinBao) clone.

https://m.thomannmusic.com/thomann_tf_3 ... 1614704548

Junior Trombone - 12.20mm bore (= 0.480")

Missed that. Good catch.

[noordinaryjoe]

After regretting selling a Yamaha YSL-350c several years ago, I picked up one of these recently:

https://www.jimlaabsmusicstore.com/stor ... rass-bell/

Although I haven't been able to play them back to back, the Schiller seems like a decent clone of the Yamaha. The rose brass looks more like gold brass to me, but that actually makes it even more like the Yamaha. They also have a yellow brass version:

https://www.jimlaabsmusicstore.com/stor ... -trombone/

They are both dual bore, just like the Yammy - the slide material and mechanical linkage (vs. string on the Yamaha) seem to be the main differences. The valve was a little fussy as delivered, but after working in some oil it plays fine now. SUPER handy sized instrument that plays much better than you might think. If you haven't read this, Doug Yeo has decent things to say about the Yamaha version:

http://www.yeodoug.com/articles/trombon ... llery.html

(about 2/3 of the way down the page)

[hyperbolica]

After regretting selling a Yamaha YSL-350c several years ago, I picked up one of these recently

I was hoping someone would buy one.

What is that funky thumb screw at the leadpipe? Is that actually on the horn?
How is the balance? How about intonation of the partials? Do you wish you bought the yellow, or does the gold/rose work for you? Do you notice any stuffiness that goes away when you play it in C? Do piles of rapid fire questions annoy you?

Thanks for posting.

[Arthurtwoshedsjackson]

The screw holds an index finger ring in place, for small hands. The Yamaha also has one as well as a small extension mounted on the trigger, both removable.

[noordinaryjoe]

After regretting selling a Yamaha YSL-350c several years ago, I picked up one of these recently

I was hoping someone would buy one.

What is that funky thumb screw at the leadpipe? Is that actually on the horn?
How is the balance? How about intonation of the partials? Do you wish you bought the yellow, or does the gold/rose work for you? Do you notice any stuffiness that goes away when you play it in C? Do piles of rapid fire questions annoy you?

Thanks for posting.

Thumb screw is for the index finger ring, which I promptly removed. (mounts like a lyre) Playing on and off the valve seems quite similar, no worse than a well set up F attachment - certainly not stuffy. No regrets on the red brass, other than I wish it were more rosy to match my other horns, pure vanity speaking there. I'd be happy to use this horn for a gig instead of my .500" YSL-651 if I had to fly and wanted/needed to bring it carry-on. I don't fluster easily, so ask your questions as frequently and quickly as you want!!

[hyperbolica]

Does the trigger fit an average adult hand?
Does it remind you at all of a 32h with similar specs? Or is it more like a ysl356?
It has 6 positions?
Does it play low C and B below the staff (as a pedal in trigger 1 and 2)?

[Posaunus]

Mouthpiece: Your favorite small-shank piece?

[noordinaryjoe]

Does the trigger fit an average adult hand?
Does it remind you at all of a 32h with similar specs? Or is it more like a ysl356?
It has 6 positions?
Does it play low C and B below the staff (as a pedal in trigger 1 and 2)?

Trigger position and fit are quite standard and comfortable for my size L hands - reminds me of my YSL-646 that I played in high school/college.

The Yamaha 350c and this Schiller are the only dual bore instruments that I have played other than a .484"-.490" dual bore jazz horn (YSL-697) so I can't help with the 32h/ysl356 comparisons, but I believe Yamaha's goal must have been to make this play like a .508 bore horn and with the .500/.525 dual bore and ascending valve setup (which surely adds back some restriction) that is how it feels to me. Yes, 6 positions (barely) so no low E and since the trigger takes away tubing instead of adding it can only play pedals down the slide to 6th.

Balance is very nice, maybe a touch bell heavy as I think about it right now, but the whole thing is so light and compact it's absolutely no issue and I never notice it.

I typically use a 6 1/2 AL - sized mouthpiece with it like I do other .500/.508 bore horns. (usually my go-to Marcinkiewicz 8H/6.5AL)

The Yamaha has a nicer case, but the case that came with my Schiller is perfectly fine.

I was VERY impressed with the fit and finish of the Schiller, like the Yamaha it about as close to perfect as I can tell. Other than having to fuss with the valve for a few minutes when it first showed up and the case it seems about the equal of the Yamaha at about 1/3 the price.

[BigBadandBass]

Is this what you are looking to do?



Might be worth reaching out this guy if you want to diy

[hyperbolica]

Is this what you are looking to do?



Might be worth reaching out this guy if you want to diy

Yeah, Pete Edwards, that's the guy who inspired me to do this. He posted here a while back. https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=2082

The only thing I wanted to change about his design was TIS, and I'm starting from a different horn. My donor horn will be essentially a Chinese copy of a Holton 159 (except the F wrap), and his is a Chinese copy of a 7b. So mine would be a 9" bell, 547/562 slide, a little bit smaller than his.

[hyperbolica]

...I was VERY impressed with the fit and finish of the Schiller, like the Yamaha it about as close to perfect as I can tell. Other than having to fuss with the valve for a few minutes when it first showed up and the case it seems about the equal of the Yamaha at about 1/3 the price.

Great. Thanks! That's very helpful. I'll probably go ahead and get one.

[noordinaryjoe]

...I was VERY impressed with the fit and finish of the Schiller, like the Yamaha it about as close to perfect as I can tell. Other than having to fuss with the valve for a few minutes when it first showed up and the case it seems about the equal of the Yamaha at about 1/3 the price.

Great. Thanks! That's very helpful. I'll probably go ahead and get one.

Like you, I tried like heck to find someone that could tell me about these Schiller Bb/C horns before I committed to buying one, no responses, so I gambled a bit with my $500 and it worked out. I hope yours ends up as nice as mine, like the Yamaha, it's a really neat horn that is quite capable and very handy. -Joe

[nkribbs]

The Yamaha 350c and this Schiller are the only dual bore instruments that I have played other than a .484"-.490" dual bore jazz horn (YSL-697) so I can't help with the 32h/ysl356 comparisons, but I believe Yamaha's goal must have been to make this play like a .508 bore horn and with the .500/.525 dual bore and ascending valve setup (which surely adds back some restriction) that is how it feels to me. Yes, 6 positions (barely) so no low E and since the trigger takes away tubing instead of adding it can only play pedals down the slide to 6th.

Hi Noordinaryjoe,
I have a Yamaha 350c, but to me it is heavy all around, including the big slide. I would love to add the C trigger to a horn like my 697z small bore jazz bone. I'm looking for a lighter weight pro model that will cut in a pop horn section. Also, with more focused sound and tuning.
When I ask custom brass makers about adding the C trigger section and shortening the slide on a small-bore tenor they just laugh at me and say they're not interested. The 350c is a student model made for beginners, but my arms are child-length. I've never had a usable 7th position, and 6th is sometimes challenging.

My alternative choice would be an Eb/Bb Alto, which I am currently looking into. I want the trigger because I need the low notes that are missing on a straight alto.

Any other thoughts on this?

[JCBone]

The Yamaha 350c and this Schiller are the only dual bore instruments that I have played other than a .484"-.490" dual bore jazz horn (YSL-697) so I can't help with the 32h/ysl356 comparisons, but I believe Yamaha's goal must have been to make this play like a .508 bore horn and with the .500/.525 dual bore and ascending valve setup (which surely adds back some restriction) that is how it feels to me. Yes, 6 positions (barely) so no low E and since the trigger takes away tubing instead of adding it can only play pedals down the slide to 6th.

Hi Noordinaryjoe,
I have a Yamaha 350c, but to me it is heavy all around, including the big slide. I would love to add the C trigger to a horn like my 697z small bore jazz bone. I'm looking for a lighter weight pro model that will cut in a pop horn section. Also, with more focused sound and tuning.
When I ask custom brass makers about adding the C trigger section and shortening the slide on a small-bore tenor they just laugh at me and say they're not interested. The 350c is a student model made for beginners, but my arms are child-length. I've never had a usable 7th position, and 6th is sometimes challenging.

My alternative choice would be an Eb/Bb Alto, which I am currently looking into. I want the trigger because I need the low notes that are missing on a straight alto.

Any other thoughts on this?

What about a tenor with 2 valves like a bass?

[BGuttman]

An Eb/Bb Alto is missing E below the bass staff. My Conn36H has a long tuning slide that allows for an "A Pull", though E below the bass staff is a pretty rare note.

I think Matt K changed his Yamaha 350C to be in C with a Bb "attachment" (i.e. reversed the valve action). I wonder if the Schiller can also be so modified. I'd prefer to play a C trombone anyway.

[noordinaryjoe]

The Yamaha 350c and this Schiller are the only dual bore instruments that I have played other than a .484"-.490" dual bore jazz horn (YSL-697) so I can't help with the 32h/ysl356 comparisons, but I believe Yamaha's goal must have been to make this play like a .508 bore horn and with the .500/.525 dual bore and ascending valve setup (which surely adds back some restriction) that is how it feels to me. Yes, 6 positions (barely) so no low E and since the trigger takes away tubing instead of adding it can only play pedals down the slide to 6th.

Hi Noordinaryjoe,
I have a Yamaha 350c, but to me it is heavy all around, including the big slide. I would love to add the C trigger to a horn like my 697z small bore jazz bone. I'm looking for a lighter weight pro model that will cut in a pop horn section. Also, with more focused sound and tuning.
When I ask custom brass makers about adding the C trigger section and shortening the slide on a small-bore tenor they just laugh at me and say they're not interested. The 350c is a student model made for beginners, but my arms are child-length. I've never had a usable 7th position, and 6th is sometimes challenging.

My alternative choice would be an Eb/Bb Alto, which I am currently looking into. I want the trigger because I need the low notes that are missing on a straight alto.

Any other thoughts on this?

My first thought is you might try to find a more adventurous horn builder or repair person. (maybe someone here?) If you haven't picked up on this earlier in this thread, watch this:



The basics are all there for the project you are talking about. Actually, I love the idea of a compact Bb/C/F medium bore tenor, too....there would be utility in that and would recover the lost notes with the Bb/C configuration.

These ascending valve tenors may be marketed as 'student' instruments, but like the Yamaha YSL-354 (also marketed as student/beginner - but they can really rip!) I think they are quite capable of playing well above their weight class!

[noordinaryjoe]

An Eb/Bb Alto is missing E below the bass staff. My Conn36H has a long tuning slide that allows for an "A Pull", though E below the bass staff is a pretty rare note.

I think Matt K changed his Yamaha 350C to be in C with a Bb "attachment" (i.e. reversed the valve action). I wonder if the Schiller can also be so modified. I'd prefer to play a C trombone anyway.

Bruce - I took a close look at the valve and linkage on the Schiller and it looks like reversing the valve would be easy, really easy. As a matter of fact, it looks like the arm originally was meant to actuate the valve on the bottom side instead of the top where it is now. The arm has been modified/bent (tastefully, it looks good and the plating is perfect) to reverse for this model, makes me think it was adapted from a non-ascending setup from another model in their lineup.

[noordinaryjoe]

Pictures here show the linkage/valve setup on their yellow brass model - also looks easy enough to reverse. The rose-brass (again, looks more like gold brass to me) version that I have is a bit different and would probably be even easier to reconfigure.

https://www.schillerinstruments.com/tro ... r-trombone

[noordinaryjoe]

hyperbolica - did you get one? Ready to report on it? -Joe

[hyperbolica]

I haven't yet. Other priorities keep getting in the way. It's gonna happen, though.

[Matt K]

An Eb/Bb Alto is missing E below the bass staff. My Conn36H has a long tuning slide that allows for an "A Pull", though E below the bass staff is a pretty rare note.

I think Matt K changed his Yamaha 350C to be in C with a Bb "attachment" (i.e. reversed the valve action). I wonder if the Schiller can also be so modified. I'd prefer to play a C trombone anyway.

It was actually a Conn 36H like yours! Fortunately, Conrad Herwig had the work done so I just bought it already made. He used it on this album... maybe only for this track...: So it was actually in Bb, with an ascending Eb valve. I'd love to get my hands on a 350C at some point. My next project is putting a valve on my Wessex alto. Long Island Brass has it there now, he'll be doing the work later this summer. Going for Eb/Bb. We'll see if the slide is long enough for an E. I seldom see parts written that low anyone and if I did I'd bring my YSL356.

[Jimkinkella]

If I were you guys I'd start off with a good straight horn, cut it down and add the reversed valve.
I know that some people here will disagree with me, but I didn't find the 350C to be super useful in real-life situations in stock condition.
I ended modifying one so much that it might have been cheaper to start from scratch.
The 8" bell and .525 lower tube just didn't fit into any gig I tried it on, might work for a small church combo?
The size is pretty great, though.

[Matt K]

Hah, funny you should say that. I've actually been playing .525 w/ 8" bell for about 75% of my playing the least two years. Different strokes! Works a lot better for 3rd parts which is often what I'm playing and I tend to like medium bores if I'm the only trombone.

[skeletal]

Just hypothetically, but I'd much rather play a C/Bb/Ab/GB, basically an ascending C valve and a descending Gb trigger, like an independent bass. The only problem is needing TIS to get anywhere close to the correct ratio of cylindrical and conical.

At least on tenor, this instrument would make playing cello and bassoon transcriptions far easier (pedal C's anybody?)

Would facilitate going from F and E3 in first and second position to G and Gb in the same slide positions.

The Gb valve would make in-the-staff Db far less awkward, much like a bass would.

You have trigger Bb2 (C valve plus 3rd position) that would be just as open as first position Bb, simplifying Bb major arpeggios like the Rimsky-Korsakov concerto.

The only note left perilously far out on the slide would be low Db, which is way rarer than low C and beats not being able to play low B at all.

And finally you can raise any position a whole step. The awkward seventh (Gb and G) partial could be skipped entirely without needing to resort to 4 and 5th positions. You could even play Bolero's high Db on the 9th partial, which imo slots a lot better than the 10th.

[officermayo]

Somewhat off topic:

I've been seeing ads for the Schiller Studio Bb/C trombone.
Having never seen one I'm curious about how they work. Are they Bb without the trigger depressed? When using the trigger, what notes are in each position?

Thanks in advance!

[hyperbolica]

They are the same as the Yamaha and JP C/Bb instruments. Bb under normal conditions. When you pull the trigger it goes into C, one step higher. The air normally goes through the valve tubing. When you pull the trigger, it shuts the valve.

I've got a Yamaha for sale if you're interested.

[officermayo]

Thanks for the offer, but my budget is very limited being retired on disability.

The reason I asked how they work is I saw a video about the one made by Packer and the guy said it was a deciding valve (to Bb) on a C trombone. Really confused me! Then again, see above to understand that's my normal situation.

[BGuttman]

It's a C trombone with a Bb valve. The valve is set up to normally be engaged and it disengages when pressed.

These have been proposed for young players whose arms are too short to reach C in 6th position. Unlike an F-attachment this valve is not intended to extend the range.

I'd be more interested if the instrument were actually in C with the attachment in Bb (or even better in A or G). I can still reach 7th on a Bb trombone. Note that at one time there was a C trombone with a valve to put in Bb, but this valve had no spring; you set it by hand and played it that way. It was called a "Preacher trombone". I believe Conn used the model number 60H (before it was applied to a bass trombone).

[timothy42b]

Yes. C/A would make a lot of sense.

[Sesquitone]

Yes, the C/A (i.e. minor-third attachment) is a wonderful "lead" tenor trombone of great carrying power, paralleling the C trumpet often used in symphony orchestras. It has compact dimensions—12% shorter than the Bb instrument. But its low-range compass is the same: continuously chromatic down to E2, plus pedals; there are two "additional" pedals: C2 and B1; three equitempered tones, Eb2, D2 and Db2, are missing. The maximum slide extension is about 552 mm, compared with about 620 mm for the Bb tenor. Hand-slide inertia and friction are proportionately reduced.

The YSL 350C (compact) Yamaha "student" model, Bb/(ascending C), is easily converted to a professional trombone in C/A: (i) replace the attachment crook with one that's 176 mm longer (i.e. an additional 88 mm on each arm of the crook); (ii) restore the valve to descending (disassemble the valve, turn the rotor 90º, and re-assemble). My personal C/A tenor (customised in 1985) is a cut-down Olds Recording model with a dual-bore slide (12.6 mm/13.0 mm) matched to the attachment bore—very similar to the 350C with its dual-bore slide (12.7 mm/13.3 mm). For mouthpieces, I have used a Bach 6.5AM or, for additional brightness, an alphabetically appropriate 12C.

Based on a Bb sound-path length of SPL(Bb) = 2960 mm, the slide extension lengths (in millimetres) are as follows ("T" stands for Thumb trigger).
C positions: 1(C: 0), 2(B: 78), 3(Bb: 161), 4(A: 249), 5(Ab: 342), 6(G: 442), 7(Gb: 546).
A positions: T1(A: 0), T2(Ab: 93), T3(G: 192), T4(Gb: 297), T5(F: 408), T6(E: 525).

Figure 5 in US patent 5435222 shows an ETSP Chart for the C/A tenor: a precise graphical portrayal of available Equitempered Tones (vertical axis) versus Slide Position extension lengths (horizontal axis). Note the uniform interleaving of slide-alone harmonics (equitempered tones shown by black dots) and attachment harmonics (open circles)—offering enhanced slide facility in the otherwise awkward low-tenor register. Also note the Am7 (or C6) arpeggio available with the slide closed, similar to the octave above the bass clef. Arpeggios of most other chord types are available within three adjacent slide positions.
The minor-third (single-valve) attachment tuning (e.g. Eb/C alto, C/A and Bb/G tenors) gives the "best"—i.e most uniform—interleaving of slide-alone and attachment harmonics, separated vertically by thirds and seconds, as in the upper register.

The minor-third tuning is better than the major-third tuning (e.g. Bb/Gb) in this respect. And far (far!) better than the ubiquitous "traditional" perfect-fourth attachment, Bb/F. For continuously chromatic tenor and bass trombones the "best" attachment tunings are again based on minor-thirds for the thumb-trigger valve, using the in-line geometry:
(1) Bb/G(thumb)-E(finger)-D(double); the E attachment is tuned 19.7¢ sharp, giving an exact D double.
(2) Bb/G(thumb)-Eb(finger)-Db(double); the Eb attachment is tuned 6.6¢ sharp, giving an exact Db double.
For bass/contrabass trombones, these tunings can be transposed down as follows.
(3) G/E(thumb)-C#(finger)-B(double); the C# is tuned 19.7¢ sharp, giving an exact B double.
(4) G/E(thumb)-C(finger)-Bb(double); the C is tuned 6.6¢ sharp, giving an exact Bb double.
The latter is a transposition (up a M2) of one of the tunings offered for the Thein contrabass:
F/D(thumb)-Bb(finger)-Ab(double). Note the minor-third thumb-trigger attachment.

[Sesquitone]

For a Bb trombone with an in-line descending (thumb-trigger) F valve and ascending (finger-trigger) C valve, what is the tuning of the double combination? Starting with a Bb sound-path length of SBL(Bb) = 2960 mm, the F sound-path length, to the nearest millimetre, is SPL(F) = 3951 mm; the C sound-path length is SPL(C) = 2637 mm. Actuating both valves shortens the F sound-path by (2960 mm – 2637 mm) = 323 mm, giving the combined sound-path length of 3628 mm. This is very close to the sound-path length of half-way between G and Gb, like the finger-trigger attachment of the Bollinger tuning: 3623 mm. The slide positions (in millimetres) are as follows ("T" stands for Thumb trigger, "F" stands for Finger trigger, "D" stands for Double combination):

Bb positions: 1(Bb: 0), 2(A: 88), 3(Ab: 181), 4(G: 280), 5(Gb: 385), 6(F: 496).
F positions: T1(F:0), T2(E: 117), T3(Eb: 242), T4(D: 374), T5(Db: 513).
C positions: F1(C: 0), F2(B: 78), F3(Bb: 161), F4(A: 249), F5(Ab: 342), F6(G: 442), F7(Gb: 546).
"G(b/2)" positions: D1(Gb: 51), D2(F: 161), D3(E: 279), D4(Eb: 403), D5(D: 535).

[Sesquitone]

With respect to a student model for young children (with short arms), a small-bore lightweight Bb trombone with F attachment does not require reaching beyond slide-alone 5th position (385 mm) in order to cover the full tenor range (down to E2). However, the full-length slide can be a bit unwieldy for a young student. To someone skilled in the art, it is obvious that the slide could be cut down, still accommodating the 5th position, while making up the total sound-path length by providing a loop of the same length inserted into the gooseneck. Just such a student model was offered by Courtois many years ago. I tested one of these at a well-known brass instrument shop in London in the 1980s; the overall weight balance was good, but it seemed a bit heavy (for a young student) and the tone was a bit "stuffy"--perhaps due to all the tight bends in the attachment and additional gooseneck loop. As far as I know, it did not catch on as a student model.

It is a bit puzzling, then, that a US patent has recently been granted for just such a "trombone for children", US20180350329A1, December 2018. It looks almost identical to the Courtois short-slide instrument, as I recall it. The inventor is Wolfgang Reiser and the current assignee is the Thomann company. Evidently, Wolfgang and other folks at Thomann—and the patent examiners—were unaware of the prior art represented by the Courtois student model.

[officermayo]

I picked up a Schiller Bb/C trombone recently. Here are my impressions:

Overall nice horn. Fit and finish are as good as any manufacturer I've seen.
Balance is a bit bell heavy but not enough to make a difference.
Slide is slick as owl's poop once some Yammie snot is applied.
Linkage works smoothly and quietly.
Case is pretty sturdy for a light weight type.
Includes a short slide rod.

My only issue with this horn is intonation (without the C valve). I tried several different mps while using a tuner and find Bb is flat, even with the tuning slide all the way in.

Other than that it's a great horn for the price. Got mine via Jim Laabs shipped for $450.

[elmsandr]

I picked up a Schiller Bb/C trombone recently. Here are my impressions:

Overall nice horn. Fit and finish are as good as any manufacturer I've seen.
Balance is a bit bell heavy but not enough to make a difference.
Slide is slick as owl's poop once some Yammie snot is applied.
Linkage works smoothly and quietly.
Case is pretty sturdy for a light weight type.
Includes a short slide rod.

My only issue with this horn is intonation (without the C valve). I tried several different mps while using a tuner and find Bb is flat, even with the tuning slide all the way in.

Other than that it's a great horn for the price. Got mine via Jim Laabs shipped for $450.

Both tuning slides all the way in? (Bb uses both tuning slides, C only uses main).

Trimming the valve tuning slide or the main shouldn’t be difficult, but shouldn’t be necessary with a new horn.

Cheers,
Andy

[timothy42b]

I picked up a Schiller Bb/C trombone recently. Here are my impressions:

Other than that it's a great horn for the price. Got mine via Jim Laabs shipped for $450.

Does it seem shorter and lighter, maybe easier for a young person to balance? And maybe a smaller case, for travel?

The photo makes the attachment tubing look very short, I think you'd need a whole new crook to convert to C/A.

[officermayo]

Does it seem shorter and lighter, maybe easier for a young person to balance? And maybe a smaller case, for travel?

The photo makes the attachment tubing look very short, I think you'd need a whole new crook to convert to C/A.

Yes, at 40" it's shorter than a normal tenor bone.
The case is the type with felt covered Styrofoam and exterior is ballistic material. Very light and 34" long.

[Sesquitone]

Regarding the tuning of double-trigger combinations: ascending C valve relative to Bb, combined with a descending valve. The Bb sound-path length is SPL(Bb) = 2960 mm. The C sound-path length is SPL(C) = 2637 mm. In other words, actuating the ascending C valve shortens the sound path by 323 mm.

If a descending F valve is used, SPL(F) = 3951 mm. The double combination is therefore SPL(dbl) = 3628 mm. This is very slightly longer than half-way between SPL(G) and SPL(Gb): SPL(G(b/2)) = 3623 mm—the Bollinger "second"-valve tuning.

If a descending Gb valve is used, SPL(Gb) = 3729 mm. The double combination in this case is SPL(dbl) = 3406 mm. This is a little shorter than half-way between SPL(A) and SPL(Ab): SPL(A(b/2)) = 3420 mm.