Screw-on Bells

[Mamaposaune]

It seems as though the screw-belled trombones are getting more popular. I know french horns have come with this option for years.
At this point I'm just curious, but, what are the advantages? Does turning an intact bell into a screw-on improve the playing characteristics? Or, is the main purpose to make it fit into a more compact case?
Finally, any horror stories?

[hyperbolica]

The main advantage is a flat case which is less clumsy and easier to travel with. Many people claim that the extra weight on the bell makes it project better. Cut bells are used by Roy Lawler as a way to change certain characteristics of the bell such as material, thickness, and flare diameter.

The ones I've played were just heavy, and I personally didn't appreciate any advantage, but others, especially those who (used to) travel a lot with their horns or like those subtle changes might disagree.

[elmsandr]

It adds some mass at a pretty interesting place on the flare. There are some who do the conversions specifically for the sound. It provides a little focus, some great reflection back to the player, and it holds things together that might get out of hand.

Just a note, I have a Holton screw flare that mounts to my mostly Bach-ish bass. I use this flare quite a bit, especially for outdoor concerts where I don’t want to take my vintage Bach flares. I rarely, if ever, take it in a case that takes advantage of the removable flare.

I would convert at least one more of my flares... if it were round enough for the ring set I have.

Cheers,
Andy

[jacobgarchik]

C2I5Lm5UsAA58dt.jpeg

[paulyg]

It's been said before, but I'll repeat it here: everyone who knows anything about bells strongly recommends against cutting a one-piece bell. It essentially will turn the bell into a two-piece bell. While it may not make the bell unplayable, it will drastically alter the characteristics of the bell (far more than cutting a two-piece bell).

[Burgerbob]

Can't beat traveling with a bass trombone in a case too small to fit a viola.

I have cut a heavier bell before that ended up just a bit too heavy... awesome loud response and sound but everything else was not as good. I'd definitely recommend cutting lighter bells.

[Nobbi]

I play a Lawler Model 3 and indeed with changing the flares (material, diameter, material thickness) one can change the sound drastically from clear bright lead to very soft mellow.
Big advantage is the really small case (about size of a violin case) and compared to my King 5b, the Lawler 3 is really light weighted!

[harrisonreed]

C2I5Lm5UsAA58dt.jpeg

'Nough said

[jacobgarchik]

I have a 36 and a 42b, both with screw bells. I guess technically I could have a 42b with a 8" flare or a 36 with an 8 1/2" flare but I've never tried. Did try a French horn flare once, it was pretty wild.

[ChadA]

As with pretty much every question ever asked on this forum, it will depend. Cutting the bell will help some bells and hurt others. It makes traveling much easier if you're also willing to invest in a case that fits the altered horn.

I had one of my bells cut (a Shires BI 2G) and it didn't hurt the bell; it might have actually improved it. I have another bell (BII 1Y) that's amazing and I'd never dream of cutting it. I wouldn't want to risk changing it.

I agree cutting a heavy bell may not help since it will add weight. Cutting a 1-piece bell that wasn't designed to be split is also probably not desirable (Shires' Ralph Sauer bell is 1 piece before being cut but was always designed to be cut). If you have a bell you love, leave it alone.

Cutting a bell is a risk you can't undo. The bell itself in most cases will need to be dismounted from the valve section since the rings tend to slide on from the narrow end. If your bell already comes off (like modular setups tend to do), it's a lower risk and is less involved. You can't uncut the bell, though, so I would think carefully before cutting up a cherished bell.

[jacobgarchik]

yes don't cut a cherished bell but also consider that in many cases it may be economical to buy a spare bell section just for cutting, so you would have two bell sections, travel and in-town.
Or if you have a removable bell it's a no brainer, just get a second bell.
You can also just buy a cheap-ish entire horn just for bell cutting.
I already had horns that were not particularly precious so I had no qualms about cutting them. But if I was hesitant about cutting, man, you can get beater 70s 88hs or a Benge 190 or something and go to town. If you're not buying something brand new or rare, our instruments are basically cheap.
So many other instrumentalists have travel instruments and in-town instruments. More and more common for hollow body electric guitar, for example.

[BGuttman]

I think the ultimate travel instrument I've seen was a double bass where the entire thing collapsed into the body of the instrument. I can't even begin to describe how it worked although I watched the owner put it back together. Made for a much better travel package, though. I can't comment on how well or poorly it played, although I didn't hear any "clunkers" during the rehearsal.

[elmsandr]

It's been said before, but I'll repeat it here: everyone who knows anything about bells strongly recommends against cutting a one-piece bell. It essentially will turn the bell into a two-piece bell. While it may not make the bell unplayable, it will drastically alter the characteristics of the bell (far more than cutting a two-piece bell).

I do not believe this to be a universal thought.

John Sandhagen has a beautiful Mt. Vernon Bach with a screw on flare that he did intentionally, mostly for the sound IIRC.

Alter yes; dramatically, maybe; destroy... that is certainly within your opinion, but I do not agree with it. Played several Bach cut flares and never played one that I thought was terrible.

Cheers,
Andy

[JCBone]

I saw something the other day about a forum member who cut the bell on a Yamaha YSL350C. I think the case was smaller than a violin case. It would make for the perfect non performance travel instrument.

[jacobgarchik]

perfect practice instrument:
take a pbone
hacksaw off the bell flare
if you want to, attach it back with removable tape or
just throw it away and play it like a sackbut
no case needed

[Posaunus]

perfect practice instrument:
take a pbone
hacksaw off the bell flare
if you want to, attach it back with removable tape or
just throw it away and play it like a sackbut
no case needed

pBones are already light and readily transportable.
They'll easily fit in airplane overheads in the supplied gig bag, and are hard to damage.

[jacobgarchik]

I've been on planes where overheads are too small to fit a 8" uncased trombone bell. Bus overheads too, even smaller!

[mbarbier]

It's been said before, but I'll repeat it here: everyone who knows anything about bells strongly recommends against cutting a one-piece bell. It essentially will turn the bell into a two-piece bell. While it may not make the bell unplayable, it will drastically alter the characteristics of the bell (far more than cutting a two-piece bell).

I do not believe this to be a universal thought.

John Sandhagen has a beautiful Mt. Vernon Bach with a screw on flare that he did intentionally, mostly for the sound IIRC.

Alter yes; dramatically, maybe; destroy... that is certainly within your opinion, but I do not agree with it. Played several Bach cut flares and never played one that I thought was terrible.

Cheers,
Andy

yea I had a similar though...my bell was a one piece (coincidentally John did the cutting), and it basically plays the same. Just a little bit more stable on the second partial now. super light bell so I could imagine that had a bigger bearing on it.

someone else mentioned not being able to get a bell cut cause it wasn't round. rounding the bell was the first thing John did, so it could be worth checking with him if that was the only issue.

@Jacob - yes- fitting on the bus and train over heads has been a huge and unexpected benefit of it. those things get tiny!

[pbone3b]

I recently had a bell section made by Josh Landress. He had a cache of Williams bells of various vintage - some CA, some TN? He wasn't sure which mine was. I picked out the bell I liked (Yellow brass one piece, on the heavy side) and had him build a 3b bell section with that bell. I asked if it would be sacrilegious to build it as a cut bell section, he said not at all (He IS a french horn player after all ), and actually easier to do before it was assembled. He did a great job, and I'm very happy with it.

Since it was designed to be cut from the start, I never played it un-cut.

I also bought the Marcus Bonna screw bell jazz case, not that I'll be traveling anytime soon.

[Rcarlos37]

I've seen some screwbells built with a Bronze collar, is this normal? how much does changing the material of the collar affect the sound?

[harrisonreed]

I've seen some screwbells built with a Bronze collar, is this normal? how much does changing the material of the collar affect the sound?

It will affect the feel, more than anything. But that in itself changes how you play.... Which changes the sound.

[UncleJenny]

Just a thought.. If you got a modular horn, try to get hold of a screw bell with the same specs of your current one or ask your tech to fit on a screw ring on your bell (with tape or whatsoever) to test it.

[hornbuilder]

I've seen some screwbells built with a Bronze collar, is this normal? how much does changing the material of the collar affect the sound?

Bronze is used for its mechanical/machining properties. It is also readily available in tube/pipe sizes required for trombone bells. Brass would also be an option, but would be more expensive. Nickel silver of an appropriate size is very expensive, and not easy to find. So to some degree, material chiice is dictated by availability and price, not necessarily the playing qualities.

[Elow]

I have a brass looking ring?? and im scared that im gonna strip the threads. Anyone know how to easily screw it on? I spend like 2 minutes straight just trying to find where the thread starts

[CalgaryTbone]

perfect practice instrument:
take a pbone
hacksaw off the bell flare
if you want to, attach it back with removable tape or
just throw it away and play it like a sackbut
no case needed

Off topic, but my "travel trombone" (when I don't need a good horn for work/major practice) is an alto pBone. The horn stinks, but it fits in my checked suitcase. I warm-up and play some scales on it daily over Christmas vacation, so my chops are OK for getting back to work. Smaller than a tenor pBone!

Jim Scott

[BGuttman]

I have a brass looking ring?? and im scared that im gonna strip the threads. Anyone know how to easily screw it on? I spend like 2 minutes straight just trying to find where the thread starts

First, I'd lube the threads with paraffin.

I have a friend with a screw bell French Horn and what she does is put the bell over her wrist, put her hand in the bell stem, and use her hand to pre-align the bell to the stem. Sometimes you can get the start of the screw threads by rotating the bell backwards until you feel a click as the threads start. Also, NEVER FORCE ANYTHING!!! If it doesn't screw on easily you are doing something wrong.

[timothy42b]

perfect practice instrument:
take a pbone
hacksaw off the bell flare
if you want to, attach it back with removable tape or
just throw it away and play it like a sackbut
no case needed

Off topic, but my "travel trombone" (when I don't need a good horn for work/major practice) is an alto pBone. The horn stinks, but it fits in my checked suitcase. I warm-up and play some scales on it daily over Christmas vacation, so my chops are OK for getting back to work. Smaller than a tenor pBone!

Jim Scott

That's why I bought my alto pBone, but then when my shoulder acted up I ended up using it as my main practice horn at home too. It's not great, but I wouldn't say it stinks. I did have a lot of slide problems, but some of my colleagues in the trombone choir spotted some bad spots on the stockings that helped a lot, and I have to work to keep it dry while playing or it gets sticky. For some odd reason it plays much better with the slide upside down. That means the spit valve wouldnt work but I never use one anyway on an alto, it's just as easy to pull the slide and dump.

And yes it fits in a suitcase for travel.

[hornbuilder]

Re lubricating the threads of a screw bell. Putting anything greasy or sticky on the threads will attract and hold dust and dirt, which will eventually make the threads bind. Leave the threads dry, they don't need lube. If you know you're going to be letting the instrument sit for any period of time with the bell on, undo it a fraction of a turn, to prevent the threads from locking due to oxidation.

[ChadA]

Re lubricating the threads of a screw bell. Putting anything greasy or sticky on the threads will attract and hold dust and dirt, which will eventually make the threads bind. Leave the threads dry, they don't need lube. If you know you're going to be letting the instrument sit for any period of time with the bell on, undo it a fraction of a turn, to prevent the threads from locking due to oxidation.

Matthew,
Some of my horn playing friends swear by graphite for lightly lubing the threads on their bells. Often it's as simple as running a pencil over them from time to time. What are your thoughts on that?

[hornbuilder]

Graphite is fine, since it isn't "sticky", and doesn't hold dirt. It can be messy though, if you use the stuff in the bottles.. But the pencil trick is a good one!

[elmsandr]

I have a brass looking ring?? and im scared that im gonna strip the threads. Anyone know how to easily screw it on? I spend like 2 minutes straight just trying to find where the thread starts

...
Sometimes you can get the start of the screw threads by rotating the bell backwards until you feel a click as the threads start. Also, NEVER FORCE ANYTHING!!! If it doesn't screw on easily you are doing something wrong.

This is good advice for starting most any thread. Make sure the two pieces are square, if you come at an angle, you could cross thread it. Seat the joint, spin in reverse to find the thread start and then engage. If you go around twice and don't feel the thread start... you are probably in the wrong place or angle.

If horn players can pull this off every day for decades, we can probably manage it.
Andy

[BrianJohnston]

I have personally experienced no negatives with my cut bell.

[elmsandr]

AND just remembered to re-post this... When adding any lubricant to a thread, you are reducing the friction of the two parts sliding by each other. By reducing the friction of the screwing action you are making it so that you can get the joint tighter with the same effort. That is, for a given torque (the effort at your fingertips), the clamp load in the joint (read the stretch of the materials in the threads or the force holding them together) will be greater. So if you tighten lubed threads down to the same force as un-lubed threads, you will be making the joint tighter than compared to non-lubed threads. Whether or not this is a good thing depends on your experience in getting the two pieces apart later.

-Don't over-tighten joints.
-It is easier to over tighten joints when threads have lubricant added.

Cheers,
Andy

[Burgerbob]

I lube my screwbells only so they don't screech at 130 decibels every time I put it together/take it off.

[LIBrassCo]

I lube my screwbells only so they don't screech at 130 decibels every time I put it together/take it off.

I do the same. Generally I lubricate all threads. Periodically clean them off and reapply to never have an issue.

As for the change in sound from the actual process, I just went through this on my bass. End result is as expected, sounds a little more focused, and holds together better at louder dynamics. My only regret is not doing it sooner.

[Jimkinkella]

I saw something the other day about a forum member who cut the bell on a Yamaha YSL350C. I think the case was smaller than a violin case. It would make for the perfect non performance travel instrument.

That's me.
It's a 3/4 violin case, and insanely easy to travel with.
The bell is a 7-1/2" Holton, so it fits perfectly into that really small case.
That, along with a few other modifications, and it sounds and plays great, definitely gig-worthy.
In the end it did cost as much as a brand-new horn with the original used horn and modifications, but totally worth it for me.

FWIW I also have a Courtois .547 single piece bell that I had cut with absolutely no issues.

Note: not all screw rings are made equally, the thread tolerance and weights can be very different, the Yamaha has the Instrument Innovations, and I had Sandhagen sand it down to lighten it up for me, and yes, it did make a difference.
I'm curious as to who's ring Josh uses as a horn player..

[timothy42b]

Re lubricating the threads of a screw bell. Putting anything greasy or sticky on the threads will attract and hold dust and dirt, which will eventually make the threads bind. Leave the threads dry, they don't need lube. If you know you're going to be letting the instrument sit for any period of time with the bell on, undo it a fraction of a turn, to prevent the threads from locking due to oxidation.

Matthew,
Some of my horn playing friends swear by graphite for lightly lubing the threads on their bells. Often it's as simple as running a pencil over them from time to time. What are your thoughts on that?

Graphite plus humidity equals concrete. i would never put it in a lock, and I'd be wary of using it on threads, especially if it gets left in a case for a while. Maybe a little wax would be good, or that stuff for bicycle chains. A pencil probably isn't enough to hurt anything, if you don't overdo it, and loosen regularly.

[DonH]

I've used graphite on my screw bell for many years with zero issues. ALL of the Horn player I know use it on their screw bells.

[jacobgarchik]

I saw something the other day about a forum member who cut the bell on a Yamaha YSL350C. I think the case was smaller than a violin case. It would make for the perfect non performance travel instrument.

That's me.
It's a 3/4 violin case, and insanely easy to travel with.
The bell is a 7-1/2" Holton, so it fits perfectly into that really small case.

Got a picture of the case?

[bbocaner]

At the Thein workshop in Bremen they have a cool set up to test if you might like a cut bell. It’s a bell ring, but a small portion of it has been cut away. The inside edge has had cork applied to it. You slip it over the tail of the bell and then push it down towards the flare until it wedges there. It’s apparently not 100% like a cut bell but it’s pretty close, and completely reversible. It gives you the idea of what an instrument might turn out like once cut.

[timothy42b]

If you have a bell cut, then you have added weight to your bell, and you have altered the front to back balance of the horn.

Shouldn't you then add additional counterweight to the back end?

[Burgerbob]

If you have a bell cut, then you have added weight to your bell, and you have altered the front to back balance of the horn.

Shouldn't you then add additional counterweight to the back end?

Not always. On a bass, or on a tenor with a counterweight already, it'll be fine.

[LIBrassCo]

If you have a bell cut, then you have added weight to your bell, and you have altered the front to back balance of the horn.

Shouldn't you then add additional counterweight to the back end?

Adding a screw ring actually improved the balance on my bass.