for everyone who is interested - and partly also because there are not many other sources available - I would like to kick off a collection of pictures and information on your (historic) German trombones.
So this would be about your old Kruspes, Penzels, Pierings etc., not so much about your (relatively) new Theins, Throjas etc.
Replicas of historic trombones have a right to be here as well
Some information can also be found in other threads, but it would be really great to collect pictures and where possible some data here. And of course to discuss what you love about your trombones!
I will go ahead - I currently own three trombones that I would say fall into this category.
Kruspe - most likely a "Virtuosa" model
- Conical/dual-bore slide - approximately 12 and 13 mm
- Mouthpiece receiver is maybe a tiny bit smaller than a modern medium shank
- Valve with string activation
- ~ 23 cm bell diameter with a broad "Kranz"
- Snake ornaments
- No tuning slide, no slide lock
- Long water key
- Age is not completely clear, I heard from the seller that it may be before WW 2
Heckel -
- Single bore slide - approximately 13.5 mm
- Mouthpiece receiver equal to modern large shank
- > 23 cm bell diameter with a broad "Kranz"
- Snake ornaments
- No tuning slide, no slide lock, no water key
- Based on my limited research and knowledge this could be around 100 years old
- Some well-made repairs/patches including also on the inner slide
- Engraving on the bell almost gone from polishing
Piering replica by Schmidt
- Dual bore slide - 13,2/13,7 mm
- Modern large shank receiver
- 23 cm bell diameter with a broad "Kranz"
- Snake ornaments
- No tuning slide, no slide lock
- Regular water key
- Original is around 100 years old
- Counterweight added
I currently play all of them with a JK Christhard Gössling mouthpiece which seems to be a good fit. (JK told me that's a 6 mm bore, 25,45 mm inner rim and relatively deep cup, in the middle between the JK Exclusive A and B cups.)
They all share good intonation and for me easy response in basically all registers.
I really like the sound and response, especially the way you can "modulate" the sound.
However I would say that "modern" trombones are generally a little easier to play.
All have relatively large bell throats with the Piering replica in my view the largest (would need the best brass bass practice mute!).
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Last edited by MStarke on Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Here is my oldest German trombone, a Pollter from about 1880th, tuning slide in slide, double bore about 13 mm to 14 mm, thin bell with large garland about 22.6 cm, oak leaf engraving with crowns, snakes flatt on both bows, yellow brass with nickel silver, inner slides made of yellow brass with nickel silver stockings, fully playable, extremely easy response in middle and higher range, dark and full tone that opens up brighter when dynamics is pushed. I play it with a Schmidt Bambula TP 3 3/4.
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Those wall hanging racks in the OP's photos look like, given enough time and reracking, they would bend the slide. All the weight is on the outer slide tubes (held by the outer slide brace), and then further leveraged into the contact points closer to the water key.
harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:10 pm
Those wall hanging racks in the OP's photos look like, given enough time and reracking, they would bend the slide. All the weight is on the outer slide tubes (held by the outer slide brace), and then further leveraged into the contact points closer to the water key.
Off-topic, but I definitely see the point (and have seen before buying these racks).
It can certainly be seen as a trade-off.
While I see the point of putting weight/pressure on the slide, I have seen these in use for decades at some places without noticable effects.
Most important to me:
In my household - with small kids, sometimes dogs and sometimes also incautious adults - this is not more unsafe than all alternatives I know, that would not mean to lock the trombones in a separate room or put them in their cases.
The damaged slide that I had were until now all clearly related to individual impacts, my son crawling around it etc. And it all happened on standard trombone stands
bcschipper wrote: ↑Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:05 pm
Here is my oldest German trombone, a Pollter from about 1880th, tuning slide in slide, double bore about 13 mm to 14 mm, thin bell with large garland about 22.6 cm, oak leaf engraving with crowns, snakes flatt on both bows, yellow brass with nickel silver, inner slides made of yellow brass with nickel silver stockings, fully playable, extremely easy response in middle and higher range, dark and full tone that opens up brighter when dynamics is pushed. I play it with a Schmidt Bambula TP 3 3/4.
What a nice trombone, especially considering the age!
Regarding the slide-tuning mechanism: I have always wondered why in some of the German trombones it is so far down the slide. It seems to be unfavorable regarding the balance/would be less an issue it was further up.
Or does it put any potential gap that the tuning mechanism creates in the outer slide actually "off" the inner slide? Could this be the advantage?
bcschipper wrote: ↑Mon Jan 25, 2021 6:20 pm
The Kruspe is a Virtuosa from the 1930th. Nice instrument. I got two Kruspe Weschke from the same period.
Would be interesting to get measurements on the bore sizes.
Another question:
I saw in your profile that you actually have a really collection of Weschke models.
Would you share if and how they differ from each other?
Edward, I have read through the description of your instruments before, but had not seen the video yet.
Most of the content fits very well through what I remember from a course I had during my trombone studies that focused on history of (German) trombones.
What I found especially interesting is the sound samples. Even considering any other influencing factors that such a live recording may have, the sound difference is quite clear and fits to what I experience myself.
One question:
The majority of your German trombones does not have a bell garland/Kranz - is that a conscious choice?
Or is it just a coincidence that you found them this way?
My own perception of German trombones is probably very much influenced by my first trombone teacher who came from former East Germany, but played Wechselposaune (2nd and 3rd/bass) in a West German orchestra.
He played beautiful Kruspe tenor and bass trombones and I always loved his way of playing and sound.
bcschipper wrote: ↑Mon Jan 25, 2021 6:20 pm
The Kruspe is a Virtuosa from the 1930th. Nice instrument. I got two Kruspe Weschke from the same period.
Would be interesting to get measurements on the bore sizes.
Thanks, what exactly tells you that the Virtuosa is from the 1930s? Would be great to know.
I would love to see Pictures of your Weschkes!
Will try to get the slide measurements approximated...
It is a double bore: This excludes Kruspe Weschke Model and Kruspe Penzel Model. We are left with Kruspe Neustes Model and Virtuosa. The Kruspe Neustes Model did not feature a Kranz. The Virtuosa had a big or small Kranz. On the other hand, the Virtuosa had often an exchangeable F-attachment while the Kruspe Neustes Model feature a permanent F-attachment. The bell of the Kruspe Neustes Model had a slightly different shape, not as convex as the Virtuosa. Based on this, I would classify it as a Virtuosa.
1930th: It features the same engraving and ferule designs as my 1930th Kruspe Weschkes.
bcschipper wrote: ↑Mon Jan 25, 2021 6:20 pm
The Kruspe is a Virtuosa from the 1930th. Nice instrument. I got two Kruspe Weschke from the same period.
Would be interesting to get measurements on the bore sizes.
Another question:
I saw in your profile that you actually have a really collection of Weschke models.
Would you share if and how they differ from each other?
I live at three different places. That‘s why I got several of them so that I do not need to carry an instrument when traveling. My two 1930th Weschkes I can show in a month or so when I am back at my other place. Currently I can show my other three. In fact, I posted them recently in a Facebook group on German Trombone / Deutsche Posaune.
This is the tenor trombone formerly used by late Stefan Fritzen when he was principal trombone at the Berliner Symphonie Orchester and the Staatskapelle Dresden. It is a legendary Kruspe Weschke probably from the early 1960th. The F-attachment can be replaced by a “Tenorstift” so that the trombone can be quickly converted into a straight tenor. The same tuning slide is used with and without F-attachement. Gold brass with nickel silver. Nickel silver inner slide. Bell with nickel silver garland with oak leaves engraved but no crowns as usual in this era at Kruspe. Most likely, the original friction joint has been replaced later with a screw joint. Fully playable. Very nice response. Currently my “daily driver”.
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Last edited by bcschipper on Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thanks for sharing all those details. Really interesting!
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Damn Edward, this is one heck of an awesome history lesson ... I was glued to your lips.
Very well done video and instrument comparison.
I wouldn't have expected such a big difference.
I recently had a Thein (kind of an early Maxim version from 1981) at home to test against Conn 4H, King 2b, Rath R1, Lawler 3. I didn't like it at all, uneasy to play, way different sound ... you named it dull. Now, I understand probably why I had that impression/feeling.
MStarke wrote: ↑Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:10 am
The majority of your German trombones does not have a bell garland/Kranz - is that a conscious choice?
Or is it just a coincidence that you found them this way?
It's pure coincidence that those were available at the time I had the money to buy them. It isn't as if I specifically targeted the models without a bell garland.
MStarke wrote: ↑Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:10 am
The majority of your German trombones does not have a bell garland/Kranz - is that a conscious choice?
Or is it just a coincidence that you found them this way?
It's pure coincidence that those were available at the time I had the money to buy them. It isn't as if I specifically targeted the models without a bell garland.
Understood. And don't get me wrong - this wasn't meant to in any way question your choice
It's just that (here in Germany) I mostly see them with the bell garland.
bcschipper wrote: ↑Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:05 pm
Here is my oldest German trombone, a Pollter from about 1880th, tuning slide in slide, double bore about 13 mm to 14 mm, thin bell with large garland about 22.6 cm, oak leaf engraving with crowns, snakes flatt on both bows, yellow brass with nickel silver, inner slides made of yellow brass with nickel silver stockings, fully playable, extremely easy response in middle and higher range, dark and full tone that opens up brighter when dynamics is pushed. I play it with a Schmidt Bambula TP 3 3/4.
What a nice trombone, especially considering the age!
Regarding the slide-tuning mechanism: I have always wondered why in some of the German trombones it is so far down the slide. It seems to be unfavorable regarding the balance/would be less an issue it was further up.
Or does it put any potential gap that the tuning mechanism creates in the outer slide actually "off" the inner slide? Could this be the advantage?
The trombone is quite front heavy even compared to my other straight German tenors without counterweight. The disadvantage is that your left hand has to get used to it. The advantage is that you never even get to press too much against your upper lip. (I wonder whether it would help many beginners in this regard.) For people with some overbite like me, who point the instrument somewhat downward, it is not uncomfortable to play once you develop enough strength in your left hand. (I am left-handed anyway.) I find this instrument an absolute joy to play. Very easy response and very colorful sound. It would be very nice for Mahler 3 for instance.
The tuning mechanism essentially extends the outer slide. It is like a slide on the slide. If I take it apart, I got two tubes of the outer slides plus the tuning slide. The brace of the outer slide is open as usual for German trombones. Even though everything seems very fragile, it survived that many years fully intact and the slide is extremely smooth.
This a Kruspe Weschke from 1918 or 1919 I believe. It still has the big snakes with crossed tails but not “Hoflieferant” engraved. The tuning slide has most likely been added later but in a very competent way. The spit valve has also been added later but in a rather careless way. The trombone is gold brass with nickel silver. Bell with large garland and oak leaf engraving. The slide is raw brass with nickel silver stockings. The original open brace had been later soldered by previous owner. Nevertheless, the slide moves extremely smoothly. Compared to my other four Kruspe Weschkes, this is the most dark sounding instrument and my oldest Weschke. Fully functional.
Compared to Weschkes of the 1930th and later, the double radius of the slide and tuning slide is not as pronounced. Moreover, the inner slides are brass rather than nickel-silver as in later years (although with nickel-silver stockings). Finally, the snakes have crossed tails and are more pronounced than in later years.
Played with my Schmidt Kruspe Weschke mouthpiece.
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bcschipper wrote: ↑Mon Jan 25, 2021 6:20 pm
The Kruspe is a Virtuosa from the 1930th. Nice instrument. I got two Kruspe Weschke from the same period.
Would be interesting to get measurements on the bore sizes.
Updated the original post with the measurements above.
I had only seen Virtuosas with a small garland before, but now I am convinced it is one, thanks!
slipmo wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:31 pm
Here's my kruspe alto (one of my favorites in my collection). Note the original "kruspe water key"
I am a bit puzzled by this nice alto. The engraving is like 1930th but the snakes like pre 1920th. The “one piece” bell is cool and it is the first time that I see it on a Kruspe alto. Both of my Kruspe altos have tuning slides. My teacher has another alto with a “one piece” bell (not a Kruspe) that I believe he even bought from you.
The water key is not too practical on an alto. On a tenor you put it down in the orchestra during rests. Water flows out automatically. My alto I often keep in my hands during rests without resting it on the ground.
I got another Weschke with such a water key but still prefer a normal water key.
Here is a single-valve Kruspe Bass trombone Weite 4 (Kruspe “Neustes Modell”). It was build for an exhibition in 1936. The slide lock has been added later. Also the inner slides had been replaced later and are chromed by the Kruspe Workshop before it closed. Gold brass with nickel silver. Long water key. Double-bore. Large shank mouth piece receiver. 25 cm bell.
I play it with a Schmidt Ed. Kruspe 6, which sound-wise seem to fit perfectly.
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bcschipper wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:14 am
Here is a single-valve Kruspe Bass trombone Weite 4 (Kruspe “Neustes Modell”). It was build for an exhibition in 1936. The slide lock has been added later. Also the inner slides had been replaced later and are chromed by the Kruspe Workshop before it closed. Gold brass with nickel silver. Long water key. Double-bore. Large shank mouth piece receiver. 25 cm bell.
I play it with a Schmidt Ed. Kruspe 6, which sound-wise seem to fit perfectly.
Nice... Do You consider it a bass or tenor?.... Sometimes Weite 4 are considered being small bass, sometime not..
bcschipper wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:14 am
Here is a single-valve Kruspe Bass trombone Weite 4 (Kruspe “Neustes Modell”). It was build for an exhibition in 1936. The slide lock has been added later. Also the inner slides had been replaced later and are chromed by the Kruspe Workshop before it closed. Gold brass with nickel silver. Long water key. Double-bore. Large shank mouth piece receiver. 25 cm bell.
I play it with a Schmidt Ed. Kruspe 6, which sound-wise seem to fit perfectly.
Nice... Do You consider it a bass or tenor?.... Sometimes Weite 4 are considered being small bass, sometime not..
I think the way the instrument plays, it is definitely a bass trombone.
Thanks for the link!
This definitely helped me with some of my memories.
Still it would be really interesting, when e.g. Kruspe built there first "modern" (no matter if dependent or independent) double valve bass trombones. The article references to a "Stellventil" only for Kruspe if I see it correctly.
bcschipper wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 3:55 pm
This a Kruspe Weschke from 1918 or 1919 I believe. It still has the big snakes with crossed tails but not “Hoflieferant” engraved. The tuning slide has most likely been added later but in a very competent way. The spit valve has also been added later but in a rather careless way. The trombone is gold brass with nickel silver. Bell with large garland and oak leaf engraving. The slide is raw brass with nickel silver stockings. The original open brace had been later soldered by previous owner. Nevertheless, the slide moves extremely smoothly. Compared to my other four Kruspe Weschkes, this is the most dark sounding instrument and my oldest Weschke. Fully functional.
Compared to Weschkes of the 1930th and later, the double radius of the slide and tuning slide is not as pronounced. Moreover, the inner slides are brass rather than nickel-silver as in later years (although with nickel-silver stockings). Finally, the snakes have crossed tails and are more pronounced than in later years.
Played with my Schmidt Kruspe Weschke mouthpiece.
Regarding the "key dimensions" (slide bores, bell size...) I assume your Weschke models are all following the same standards? Or has there been any variation?
One of my Piering basses. Some specs: 9,75” bell, bore ca 13,5 mm, unplated inner slide with soldered on nickel stockings, large shank mouthpiece receiver, non-soldered slide brace and Pierings patented «zug-führung»:
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nopos wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:55 pm
One of my Piering basses. Some specs: 9,75” bell, bore ca 13,5 mm, unplated inner slide with soldered on nickel stockings, large shank mouthpiece receiver, non-soldered slide brace and Pierings patented «zug-führung»:
bcschipper wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 3:55 pm
This a Kruspe Weschke from 1918 or 1919 I believe. It still has the big snakes with crossed tails but not “Hoflieferant” engraved. The tuning slide has most likely been added later but in a very competent way. The spit valve has also been added later but in a rather careless way. The trombone is gold brass with nickel silver. Bell with large garland and oak leaf engraving. The slide is raw brass with nickel silver stockings. The original open brace had been later soldered by previous owner. Nevertheless, the slide moves extremely smoothly. Compared to my other four Kruspe Weschkes, this is the most dark sounding instrument and my oldest Weschke. Fully functional.
Compared to Weschkes of the 1930th and later, the double radius of the slide and tuning slide is not as pronounced. Moreover, the inner slides are brass rather than nickel-silver as in later years (although with nickel-silver stockings). Finally, the snakes have crossed tails and are more pronounced than in later years.
Played with my Schmidt Kruspe Weschke mouthpiece.
Regarding the "key dimensions" (slide bores, bell size...) I assume your Weschke models are all following the same standards? Or has there been any variation?
The bell size is all the same among my Weschkes. At the moment I cannot measure the bore sizes of the ones I got here. The problem is that due to Covid-19 the hard ware stores are closed in Germany (which is different from the US). First, I need to buy a caliper.
nopos wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:55 pm
One of my Piering basses. Some specs: 9,75” bell, bore ca 13,5 mm, unplated inner slide with soldered on nickel stockings, large shank mouthpiece receiver, non-soldered slide brace and Pierings patented «zug-führung»:
Schmidt copied it from such a Piering. I played the original Piering they got in their workshop (also with „Zug with Führung“).
In the Facebook group „German Trombone / Deutsche Posaune“ we posted a catalogue by Piering in which the trombones and the „Zug with Führung“ is described with some detail.
Thanks for the link!
This definitely helped me with some of my memories.
Still it would be really interesting, when e.g. Kruspe built there first "modern" (no matter if dependent or independent) double valve bass trombones. The article references to a "Stellventil" only for Kruspe if I see it correctly.
I think the first purpose built double valve german bass trombones were the F contrabasses from the 1920s. I owned a Schopper contra with inline in F/Eb/BBb (now lives with Erik Schmalz) that was from this period. Despite having inline valves, its not meant to be played together (each valve has its own lever) and I've seen pictures of Kruspe contras and other contras from makers from this period in this configuration.
I had a Piering here at the shop last year that I was going to restore, but it had a 2nd valve integrated into it (the previous owner said that the 2nd valve was added by Piering in the early 1930s before his retirement, but I cannot confirm the validity of that... but certainly possible) It was a fun instrument and the current owner did have plans to do the restoration on it.
pieringdouble_1.JPG
pieringdouble_2.JPG
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I think the first purpose built double valve german bass trombones were the F contrabasses from the 1920s. I owned a Schopper contra with inline in F/Eb/BBb (now lives with Erik Schmalz) that was from this period. Despite having inline valves, its not meant to be played together (each valve has its own lever) and I've seen pictures of Kruspe contras and other contras from makers from this period in this configuration.
I had a Piering here at the shop last year that I was going to restore, but it had a 2nd valve integrated into it (the previous owner said that the 2nd valve was added by Piering in the early 1930s before his retirement, but I cannot confirm the validity of that... but certainly possible) It was a fun instrument and the current owner did have plans to do the restoration on
Wow, that’s an interesting instrument. The bracing would suggest that the second valve was added later. It is not entirely clear to me how the second valve would be operated though.
For my Kruspe bass trombone, Kruspe offered a Steckventil that could be plugged in instead of the valve-tuning slide as shown in a photograph in Doug Yeo‘s article. I don‘t have such a valve. They advertised it in their 1931 price list I uploaded in the Facebook group German trombone / Deutsche Posaune. Doug Yeo did not date it in his article.
bcschipper wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 5:32 pm
Wow, that’s an interesting instrument. The bracing would suggest that the second valve was added later. It is not entirely clear to me how the second valve would be operated though.
It was actuated with the back of the left hand. According to the previous owner, it was added to the original instrument at the Piering factory in the early 1930s... can't confirm, but it certainly is possible and makes sense for the materials and valve used.
Regarding the "key dimensions" (slide bores, bell size...) I assume your Weschke models are all following the same standards? Or has there been any variation?
The bell size is all the same among my Weschkes. At the moment I cannot measure the bore sizes of the ones I got here. The problem is that due to Covid-19 the hard ware stores are closed in Germany (which is different from the US). First, I need to buy a caliper.
Schmidt copied it from such a Piering. I played the original Piering they got in their workshop (also with „Zug with Führung“).
In the Facebook group „German Trombone / Deutsche Posaune“ we posted a catalogue by Piering in which the trombones and the „Zug with Führung“ is described with some detail.
I should consider rejoining Facebook again... Left it a few years ago because of all the advertising and uninteresting stuff.
Thanks for the link!
This definitely helped me with some of my memories.
Still it would be really interesting, when e.g. Kruspe built there first "modern" (no matter if dependent or independent) double valve bass trombones. The article references to a "Stellventil" only for Kruspe if I see it correctly.
I think the first purpose built double valve german bass trombones were the F contrabasses from the 1920s. I owned a Schopper contra with inline in F/Eb/BBb (now lives with Erik Schmalz) that was from this period. Despite having inline valves, its not meant to be played together (each valve has its own lever) and I've seen pictures of Kruspe contras and other contras from makers from this period in this configuration.
I had a Piering here at the shop last year that I was going to restore, but it had a 2nd valve integrated into it (the previous owner said that the 2nd valve was added by Piering in the early 1930s before his retirement, but I cannot confirm the validity of that... but certainly possible) It was a fun instrument and the current owner did have plans to do the restoration on it.
pieringdouble_1.JPGpieringdouble_2.JPG
That Piering is really interesting as already said. Assuming the estimation that it is done in the 1930s then it is to a degree contradicting the popular/common assumptions on bass trombone development. Even if it may have some restrictions in functionality/handling. I cannot prove it, but I also suspect that there may be more really early examples of two valve bass trombones in Germany.
MStarke wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:29 pm
Do the two play substantially different?
Yes they play different, the conical slide blows more open and has better action due to inners being plated and a significantly lighter outer slide. Also the smaller bell / Kranz makes makes for a more centered sound.
MStarke wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:29 pm
Do the two play substantially different?
Yes they play different, the conical slide blows more open and has better action due to inners being plated and a significantly lighter outer slide. Also the smaller bell / Kranz makes makes for a more centered sound.
What I always find interesting is that there really isn't "one German trombone".
Already in these few examples shared here you find quite a variation.
Yes, they do share certain characteristics, but there also is substantial differences.
Certainly more differences than between a Conn 88h and a Bach 42...
