Different materials in components and how it affects sound and plability.

[JCBone]

I'm sure there has been a thread on a similar topic in the past but I wanted to know just exactly how different materials feel and sound and what do different combinations feel and sound like. Here is my experiance: My bach 42 has a lt all nickel slide with a standard yelloq brass tuning slide with a gold a brass bell. I find that it has a pretty ballanced sound with a nice core but also plenty of depth. Meanwhile, my yamaha bass is all yellow brass and I find it has a nice comoact dark sound but it can be a bit bright in the upper registar. Of course these are all general observations and it certainly is possible that these charectaristics are the results of other factors besides material such as myself, mouthpiece, or general design but anyways, what is your experience?

[Burgerbob]

Well, in that comparison, you're comparing apples made of gold brass to oranges made of yellow brass. They're different materials, yes, but also different instruments made by different companies.

I think you can really only make these sorts of comparisons if you're at the Shires or Edwards shop and can swap between parts keeping everything else the same. Even then, a bell/whatever part may respond differently just because it was made slightly differently anyway.

I've had many, many Bach 50 yellow bells, and recently had a gold bell 50 for a while. It sounded and responded in a new manner than I was used to, but it also had a different valve set than any of my previous. How much of it was the bell, how much of it was the valves?

Two Bach slides, one in nickel and one in brass may feel quite different, but how much of that is down to variation in the leadpipe? (I don't disagree that they would feel different in this case)

You can still have a preference for one setup over another. I tend to like yellow and one piece bell all around, but I just got a Holton with nickel slide and two-piece red bell that just works.

[Chatname]

https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php? ... 471#p13675

I recommend reading this whole thread. Takes a while but chock-full of highly valuable information. At least I thought so. Lots of input about materials. However, maybe you read it already?

[spencercarran]

Agree with comments that it's hard to know. I have vague notions of how yellow and red brass bells respond differently, but I've never actually played two instruments where all else was the same.

I just got a Holton with nickel slide and two-piece red bell that just works.

Holtons are great. Is that HawaiiTromboneGuy's horn with the bird's nest rotor? Looked like a fun setup.

[Burgerbob]

I just got a Holton with nickel slide and two-piece red bell that just works.

Holtons are great. Is that HawaiiTromboneGuy's horn with the bird's nest rotor? Looked like a fun setup.

It's funny, I don't really like Holtons (had a Minick 180 in the past), but this horn rules. And not just in a quirky vintage way. Now just to figure out a new linkage so it's not a funny looking single...

[Kbiggs]

Several manufacturers have written descriptions of how different metals sound/respond. For example:

M&W: https://customtrombones.com/customization-options
Shires: https://www.seshires.com/trombonebells
Rath: https://www.rathtrombones.com/#p=bass-trombones
MK Drawing and Bending: https://www.mkdrawing.com/alloy-options/

These descriptions are accurate for the vast majority of players. Note, however, that what one person describes as “bright” or “clear,” someone else might describe as “harsh” or “strident,” or some other adjective. That is, all descriptors are necessarily subjective. More important, however, is how the instrument sounds when you play, and then how it feels to you. Furthermore, you might like the way one component in one alloy feels, but it might not sound very good 20-50 feet away. You have to try something to know what it’s like. Most makers have a few standard configurations that work for most players.

If you’re seriously thinking of getting a modular custom horn, it’s best to visit a showroom. Second best in these pandemic times would be to order a couple of parts that are similar to what you currently own and then audition them in an a:b comparison. Another set of ears is always helpful. Perhaps your teacher can help you decide what components will work for you.

[hyperbolica]

At the risk of breaking the TOS, sciences would include material science, and since a lot of people don't believe in science, this apparently becomes contentious. (from the TOS: ...we are limiting the subject material strictly to topics that do not involve politics, religion, sciences, economics, or anything that has the potential to lead to contentious discussion)

In general, material science tells us that stiffer (or harder) materials have a higher natural frequency. This is why a chunk of iron goes CLANK when you hit it, and a piece of hardened steel goes TING. Harder materials used in brass instruments like nickel silver lend higher frequencies to the resonance of the instrument. Softer materials like pure copper have lower natural frequencies.

Composition is not the only way to change the hardness of metal. Annealing (keeping material at elevated temperatures for a certain length of time so the internal stresses work themselves out) softens metal. Quenching (heating up and then quickly cooling off by immersion in water or oil) makes metal stiffer. Work hardening (repeatedly deforming past the yield point) can make material harder to the point of becoming brittle and breaking. Some terms like Heat Treating can mean heat related processes in general like those above that either soften or harden, so they aren't really specific, although many people treat the term like it has a specific meaning.

Many trombone components have conflicting properties, such as you might find a red brass component that has been first work hardened (hand hammered) then annealed (to soften and redistribute the internal stress) and then quenched (to give it a more uniform hardness) and a yellow brass part that has just been left dead soft (annealed until all the internal stress is relieved). So you can't always tell by looking at a part or a spec sheet what it's properties "should" be.

And then the materials don't trump the internal shape of the air column.

This is just to say that the composite sound of a system of materials and acoustics is complex. We can have some insight into tendencies, but it's hard to say anything really quantitative without a hardness meter and a wave analyzer.

Just to say that a trombone is a complex system, and to say anything really authoratative about a given trombone, you probably need to play that trombone. We can talk about the effects of varying certain parameters where some parameters will contribute 0.001% to the final sound and some will contribute 10%.

[Doubler]

At the risk of breaking the TOS, sciences would include material science, and since a lot of people don't believe in science, this apparently becomes contentious. (from the TOS: ...we are limiting the subject material strictly to topics that do not involve politics, religion, sciences, economics, or anything that has the potential to lead to contentious discussion)

In general, material science tells us that stiffer (or harder) materials have a higher natural frequency. This is why a chunk of iron goes CLANK when you hit it, and a piece of hardened steel goes TING. Harder materials used in brass instruments like nickel silver lend higher frequencies to the resonance of the instrument. Softer materials like pure copper have lower natural frequencies.

Composition is not the only way to change the hardness of metal. Annealing (keeping material at elevated temperatures for a certain length of time so the internal stresses work themselves out) softens metal. Quenching (heating up and then quickly cooling off by immersion in water or oil) makes metal stiffer. Work hardening (repeatedly deforming past the yield point) can make material harder to the point of becoming brittle and breaking. Some terms like Heat Treating can mean heat related processes in general like those above that either soften or harden, so they aren't really specific, although many people treat the term like it has a specific meaning.

Many trombone components have conflicting properties, such as you might find a red brass component that has been first work hardened (hand hammered) then annealed (to soften and redistribute the internal stress) and then quenched (to give it a more uniform hardness) and a yellow brass part that has just been left dead soft (annealed until all the internal stress is relieved). So you can't always tell by looking at a part or a spec sheet what it's properties "should" be.

And then the materials don't trump the internal shape of the air column.

This is just to say that the composite sound of a system of materials and acoustics is complex. We can have some insight into tendencies, but it's hard to say anything really quantitative without a hardness meter and a wave analyzer.

Just to say that a trombone is a complex system, and to say anything really authoratative about a given trombone, you probably need to play that trombone. We can talk about the effects of varying certain parameters where some parameters will contribute 0.001% to the final sound and some will contribute 10%.

[harrisonreed]

Science is so important. In the beginning, there was no science. Then Einstein went back in time from the future. He invented the trombone. Then he turned it into pure energy using E=MC^2 on a high Bb and started the big bang. His trombone was made out of cheese, and didn't sound good. But there is no sound in a vacuum anyways.

[Nobbi]

Facts and fun (hyperbolica and harrisonreed), you guys enlighten my heart.

As a scientist I can only confirm harrisonreed's lines. Just testing myself a custom horn with different changeable alloy parts ... makes my ears, eyes and believe super wide!

[whitbey]

We have a materials thread pinned at the top. Could these post be combined to it?

[Andre1966tr]

I really loved the sound and response of the plastic trombone named Jiggs. I even played a live recording on it, a Frank Zappa tribute. I have a blue and a red one, the red one is more aggressive/more mellow... just as you like it
https://www.folkwang-uni.de/fileadmin/m ... W_2018.pdf

[Posaunus]

I really loved the sound and response of the plastic trombone ... I have a blue and a red one, the red one is more aggressive/more mellow...

Aha! So color also matters!

[Andre1966tr]

Yes, color is most important. The red bell is very dark sounding, just like the blue one.

[Hobart]

They do say we hear with our eyes; do you think maybe it's plausible people would have different perceptions of sound depending on what color the horn is?

[JCBone]

They do say we hear with our eyes; do you think maybe it's plausible people would have different perceptions of sound depending on what color the horn is?

That's definetly part of it.