TromboneChat

Hello

I know some use the low C on the end of the slide on the trigger on a tenor and even the B if they pull their tuningslide far but too me the pull never is sufficient enough. I just questioned myself why the wrap on a tenor and the first valve wrap on a bass are so short? As I see it they could be made different and allow far a real long E-pull, probably Eb and even longer if the tuningslide was made with no curves, just straight with two parallel tubes. The distance between the tubes could also be made closer to make the pull even longer. Do you know of a brand who already have a valve like that. I'm thinking primary of getting a large tenor as such if any exists. In other case it would be to pay someone to completly rebuild a trigger and that would probably be very expensive

/Tom

imsevimse wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:16 am I just questioned myself why the wrap on a tenor and the first valve wrap on a bass are so short? As I see it they could be made different and allow far a real long E-pull, probably Eb and even longer if the tuningslide was made with no curves, just straight with two parallel tubes.

Don't know of any examples, probably because there hasn't been the demand, and it would stick out for miles and get dented.

But, yes, very easy to do. Would add a certain amount of weight, as you need inner and outer tubes for the full length, but you could keep the loop down close to the neckpipe 60H/71H-style, so the center of gravity would be quite favorable.

(If the valve was at the far end of the gooseneck like some old German designs, the wrap could run forward towards the bell, but there probably wouldn't be space for the Eb pull to clear both the bell and your left hand.)

The alternative would just be to have a interchangeable Eb slide, which does exist. And this can be looped so it isn't hugely longer. You're not dealing with a Bartok-triggered linkage or anything like that, so swapping an Eb crook in wouldn't take that much longer than pulling the hypothetical F-Eb superslide...

The tuning slide on a Shires Trubore valve (tenor - not bass so much) is longer than most.

I had a tech prolong the tuning slide of my Thayer valve. I always had it a bit out anyway, and extended it an equal length. So normally now I play with it pushed all the way in, and when I need to play a B I pull it all the way out. Works fine.

Is this why the Benge tenor valve slides are long and narrow?

The tuning slide on the older 88H was quite long. Same goes for the original Holton 158/159.

The tuning slide on my King 7B F side is long enough to pull to flat E (though I don't really need to). Maybe this also applies to the Benge 175F/190F.

I don't know of any of the open wrap designs with a long enough tuning slide to pull to a true flat E.

The benge 175 maybe?

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:42 am The benge 175 maybe?

That wrap layout has the potential for a very long pull, but it's not realized in the Benge's actual execution. If you used the same layout and eliminated the the ferrules and brace on the legs of the crook (i.e., replaced the existing four tubes, two ferrules, and a brace with just two longer tubes) and extended the nickel outer tubes, you could certainly get a whole step (to Eb) pull and more out of it. Probably not quite a step and half (that's a long pull), though.

Bach 36B/42B/50B have a long enough tuning slide to reach a real B, just like the traditional wrap Conns BGuttman mentioned.

The Holton 180 has two tuning slides for the first valve and if you pull both of them all the way out you can get low B without the second valve. Not sure why you would do that, but is physically possible.

My Shires Trubore bass has a long enough tuning slide on the F valve to get the low B despite the fact it has the Gb valve too. My son and I have even experimented with the Bartok gliss where he stands behing me and pushes the tuning slide in as I pull in the slide.

Ronnie

I remember that Custom OE Thayer Bass Trombone at Dillon Music. It was independent, and the thumb was F, and the paddle went right to D. It curved around the back of the trombone.

Some of the old Kanstul horns had wraps like that—models 1570 and 1588. They were built similarly to the model George Roberts model bass 1670, which has the long E pull.

I haven't found any horns (tenor or bass) that couldn't pull at least to get a low C. If you need a B, then bring a different instrument.

Traditional wrap Bach valve tuning slides are not long enough for low E. Trad. wrap Conn 88H and 72H are long enough, with some to spare.

M&W offer traditional or open wrap singles with a full Flat E pull.

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:14 pmTraditional wrap Bach valve tuning slides are not long enough for low E.

My tuner disagrees - 36B tuning slide is (barely) long enough for an E pull.

spencercarran wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:34 pm

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:14 pmTraditional wrap Bach valve tuning slides are not long enough for low E.

My tuner disagrees - 36B tuning slide is (barely) long enough for an E pull.

E yes, but not flat E. My 42B with both F slide and handslide dangling off the end is still 25 cents sharp of a B.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:44 pmE yes, but not flat E. My 42B with both F slide and handslide dangling off the end is still 25 cents sharp of a B.

Just now checked and there's a correctly tuned B towards the bottom of the handslide for my 36B with the valve slide most of the way out. Neither slide is quite to the point that I would describe as "dangling"

Could be a bit different on the 36, but it's definitely not centered on mine.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:46 pm I haven't found any horns (tenor or bass) that couldn't pull at least to get a low C. If you need a B, then bring a different instrument.

Yes, that came out a bit confusing maybe in my post. The C is not a problem, the B is the problem. On a tenor, naturally. On a bass with two valves it is not an issue at all. On a large bore tenor or a single valve bass the pull needs to be long to reach the B. Why not a new design for horns with just one trigger? That was the issue.

/Tom

imsevimse wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:11 am

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:46 pm I haven't found any horns (tenor or bass) that couldn't pull at least to get a low C. If you need a B, then bring a different instrument.

Yes, that came out a bit confusing maybe in my post. The C is not a problem, the B is the problem. On a tenor, naturally. On a bass with two valves it is not an issue at all. On a large bore tenor or a single valve bass the pull needs to be long to reach the B. Why not a new design for horns with just one trigger? That was the issue.

/Tom

Even then, I think I'd like a double valve tenor at that point.

Conn 7XH basses have a long slide, short bell section, and long F pull for one note.

The only with intune and convenient low C and B tenor ish trombone I know off are some older german bass bones with 2 valves and rather small bore. There was a Voigt 13.5 to 13.9 double bore bass I have tried at their shop in 2007 or so, but I think it's not made any more. One of my buddies here in DK has another rather small bore german bass, also qualifying middle ground between tenor and bass.

Another solution - Edwards makes an E flat tuning slide (it curves around so that it doesn't stick too far out beyond the main tuning slide). It's not a quick change, but I was able to use mine to play a section of one of the Lord of the Rings movies (w/live orchestra accompaniment) that had low B's. Easier than bringing a second horn. This is for tenor trombone, but the idea could be adapted for single valve basses. Not sure that you would find too many people looking for one of these with double valves being so prevalent

Jim Scott

I'm shocked that extenders haven't been brought up yet. Could bring you down however far you wanted with only two inner and two outer tuning slide legs soldered together. Hopefully shouldn't be too expensive to acquire for any given brand.

Peacemate wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:43 am I'm shocked that extenders haven't been brought up yet. Could bring you down however far you wanted with only two inner and two outer tuning slide legs soldered together. Hopefully shouldn't be too expensive to acquire for any given brand.

Sounds like a good idea, if I'm not overlooking something.

/Tom

That's a cool idea. Would the change in bore size from the doubled-up middle tuning slide segment cause a problem?

I don't know! :\

As drawn it would definitely take you well past Eb, at which point you've actually overshot and no longer have a chromatic scale. And as JohnL mentioned the layout on the Benge open wraps could accommodate an Eb pull in a more conventional single layer tuning slide.

The open wrap Bach 42 and 50 "could" get to Eb, if the valve section outer tubes were made to be full-length. Same for the Benge. Of course the extended slide would stick out a "long" way!!

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:50 pm DSC_0384.JPG

Good idea, good drawing, good picture. I like that if it sounds good and the mass does not make it difficult to play.

/Tom

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:11 pm The open wrap Bach 42 and 50 "could" get to Eb, if the valve section outer tubes were made to be full-length. Same for the Benge. Of course the extended slide would stick out a "long" way!!

YES! I have been wondering about why they didn´t make it like that for years. I do like singeltriggers. That goes for Benge 175 to. There is tubing enough, but the pull is to short.

This is another option. This valve section was built specifically to have enough pull for Low B with a single valve setup.

I've had 2 solutions to this issue. One was a double valve tenor, essentially a Wessex prototype that really played great. And of course I sold it.

The second was a 70h with an Eb slide, which also played well. And of course I sold that too.

Both shown below.