New Bach Trombone

[Posaunus]

Peter Steiner, an amazing young trombonist, has just announced a collaboration with Bach to develop a new trombone:



He posts that "All official details on the new horn will follow in March!"

Peter has been endorsing, and playing at an unbelievably accomplished level, a Thein Belcanto. What can Bach do better? Expect a screw bell, probably a different wrap, and perhaps a new valve. If Peter endorses it, it should be quite a trombone! I can hardly wait.

http://www.steinerpeter.com/

https://thein-blechblasinstrumente.de/3 ... hp?lang=en

[Burgerbob]

He's been playing an A47 for the last year or so.

[JCBone]

He switched to bach a few months ago and has been playing an a47bog since. The horn he played the paganini on seems to have a schagerl kissbone style wrap. Also, he didn't say that the new one would neccesarily be a bach.

[Elow]

Bach posted something about him being an artist now
I think this is great for bach, hopefully he doesn’t pull an alessi

[JCBone]

Bach posted something about him being an artist now
I think this is great for bach, hopefully he doesn’t pull an alessi

He already pulled one with Thein

[chromebone]

Oh goody, yet another new artist model trombone to pay for with my pizza delivery earnings.

Maybe I’ll try long tones instead.

[paulyg]

That video does not paint a complementary picture of the new horn, in my opinion.

[Posaunus]

That video does not paint a complementary picture of the new horn, in my opinion.

Yes, aside from the speed, articulation, flexibility, effortless 2-3 octave jumps, intonation, and musicality, it was pretty pedestrian. I expect that no violinists have thrown away their fiddles in despair.

[paulyg]

That video does not paint a complementary picture of the new horn, in my opinion.

Yes, aside from the speed, articulation, flexibility, effortless 2-3 octave jumps, intonation, and musicality, it was pretty pedestrian. I expect that no violinists have thrown away their fiddles in despair.

I'm not talking about the playing... of course Peter Steiner is fantastic. I just don't like the sound of the new horn.

[JCBone]

Yes, aside from the speed, articulation, flexibility, effortless 2-3 octave jumps, intonation, and musicality, it was pretty pedestrian. I expect that no violinists have thrown away their fiddles in despair.

I'm not talking about the playing... of course Peter Steiner is fantastic. I just don't like the sound of the new horn.

Maybe it's the accoustics?

[Elow]

Is that the new horn? I thought it was a stock a47

[Burgerbob]

That video does not paint a complementary picture of the new horn, in my opinion.

Yes, aside from the speed, articulation, flexibility, effortless 2-3 octave jumps, intonation, and musicality, it was pretty pedestrian. I expect that no violinists have thrown away their fiddles in despair.

I agree with Paul... I think it's mostly the room/recording, but it doesn't sound very good below F in the staff here.

[JCBone]

Is that the new horn? I thought it was a stock a47

This particular one is. Before he played a stock a47bog and before that, a thein bel canto

[harrisonreed]

$$$.¢¢

[paulyg]

Yeah this video sounds like it was recorded with a potato.

You can still kinda tell, though, that the horn's character only emerges when he's REALLY pushing. When he's playing below forte, all you get is this fuzzy, tinny, even pinched, sound. None of the core you can hear in the louder sections carries over to the softer dynamics. Basically, it sounds like a bad Bach.

If I heard any halfway-decent player trying out a horn in a music store, and they sounded like this, I'd tell them to pick a different one.

[tbonesullivan]

That does look like a variant of the A47BO, as far as I can tell, but the lighting in the video makes it nearly impossible to see the valve wrap. it almost looks like it crosses over in some strange way.

I've also been somewhat amazed that Bach uses it's own valve on the A47BO, but now uses the Open-Flow valve on the 42BOF. I just don't understand their marketing or their manufacturing. They should easily be able to manufacture their own rotary valves, an improvement on their old design, and could just use that on all horns. Instead they offer countless variations on the same horn, priced all over the place.

And always for more than they should be.

[Burgerbob]

Different wrap, screwbell, removeable leadpipes. Definitely a departure from the A47.

[harrisonreed]

This recording sounds "bad" because of the sound technician. Possibly a poor room, absolutely poor mic placement, possibly wrong mic setting. They might as well have placed that microphone inside the guy's mouth. The reverb is either fake, 100% wet and set too low to compete with the dry signal, or the tech used room mics in a really bad room and mixed them that low as an apology for not having a real room to record in.

You can't tell what the trombone sounds like with a mic only a few feet directly in front of the bell. Look at some of his better sounding videos -- his microphone placement is generally far off to the side or up above, and not directly in line with the bell.

The caveat is that ... Well, we have no way to know if what we are hearing and seeing are the same event. Often these are two separately recorded events. I'm inclined to think that what we are seeing is likely what the mic placement was, at least. If you put that type of mic there, it sounds like that. Like a tongue flapping around in a box. That has nothing to do with the player or the horn.

Listen to how much better it sounds without a mic practically inside the bell:

[Posaunus]

Listen to how much better it sounds without a mic practically inside the bell

Indeed!

Last time I heard Peter live (10 months ago, just before the lockdown), he sounded fantastic. Blew away an auditorium full of trombonists!

I look forward to seeing / hearing him play his new model Bach trombone.

[RJMason]

I really enjoyed the video, I like hearing the Bach core in certain moments. For those who don’t like what they hear, I also suspect its a sound/mix thing. First off he’s using what looks like a Lewitt microphone. I use one for vocals, because of the clear sound it captures. But it gets hot and picks up all the tonguing and clicks and things that may distract from the pure trombone tone. Sound needed to be dialed in more, sound EQ’d, but then people might suspect it was edited? And they really just wanted to show off the raw energy and sound of the new horn? The reverb definitely has artificial moments, but that’s standard fare in today’s social media videos lol. Lewitt mic in a boomy room has been a pain in my ass while recording at home remotely. I stopped using that mic on trombone and stick to my ribbon which smooths out the harshness a well built condenser can capture (for better or worse) with less time spent in tweaking in post.

All that to say, I didn’t mind the sonic flaws. What an amazing flexible interpretation of Paganini! Love this forward thinking. Also looking forward to the screwbell Bach era! Haha

[harrisonreed]

For what it's worth, here is one kind of setup to get a dark round sound, with mostly room sound and no emphasis on the sound of the tongue, for the trombone. Large, neutral condenser mics set to OMNI mode placed here:

Screenshot_20200302-194350.png

Screenshot_20200224-130129.png

The omni mics are about 30 degrees to the left of the bell, with the mic stand about 1.5 meters away from the player and the mics themselves raised 1.5 meters above the bell. This setup is only used in a good room, and in conjunction with room mics. These are spot mics, so while they look like the main source of sound for the trombone (and could be used that way) you actually would use the signal from these and slowly mix it into the main room pair to get your mix right, and so you could ride the gain if needed. But it wouldn't replace the main room pair.

If using fake reverb in a bad room, often an engineer will put the mics in almost the same spot, but use cardiod condensers. Others use a ribbon mic.

[Posaunus]

For those of you critical of the audio quality of Peter Steiner's YouTube Paganini recording, please consider the likely situation.

• Peter and Constanze, still in their twenties, have been locked down in Covid quarantine, in a small apartment, for 10 months, without any reliable source of income.
• They have used that time to improve their skills, learn new repertoire, and find new ways of communicating to others.
• Peter has managed to learn the Paganini Caprice #24 – already a devilishly difficult piece on violin – and play it astonishingly well on the trombone.
• Justifiably proud, he wanted to share his accomplishment (and his new relationship with Bach), with his audience, so he arranged to record the piece – perhaps with a single assistant who was probably NOT a "sound engineer" – in a room that was likely not an auditorium or recording studio, with a single microphone in front of his bell.

I'm sure that Peter is aware of the limitations of the recording process and the deficiencies of the YouTube video – he has appeared on many of the world's major stages. But, given the circumstances, it is what it is. I for one am extremely impressed. I know what Peter sounds like live, and I eagerly anticipate hearing him play his "new" Bach trombone. Bravo, Peter!

[Burgerbob]

OK, OK, calm down. I have heard Peter 3 times in recital and interviewed him. He's an amazing player. Obviously he has the technique and sound.

In this video, he doesn't sound like Peter does in the staff. It sounds awful.

Both of these things can be true.

[RJMason]

I'm sure that Peter is aware of the limitations of the recording process and the deficiencies of the YouTube video – he has appeared on many of the world's major stages. But, given the circumstances, it is what it is. I for one am extremely impressed. I know what Peter sounds like live, and I eagerly anticipate hearing him play his "new" Bach trombone. Bravo, Peter!

Completely agree!!! Bravo Peter!

Also appreciate harrisonreed’s insights. Learned more than I thought I would from this thread. Thanks all!

[RustBeltBass]

Bach posted something about him being an artist now
I think this is great for bach, hopefully he doesn’t pull an alessi

I do not like this portraying of Mr. Alessi. English is not my native language but I believe the “pulling a...” phrase refers to some kind of con artist or at least a dishonest person which is out of order here.

Being an Edwards Artist, I am extremely sad Mr. Alessi decided to switch to a different brand. But given all he has done for the trombone community, all his breathtaking solo recordings, his orchestral playing and his world class teaching, I think this is very disrespectful.
Mr. Alessi’s endorsement of Edwards has lasted many years, decades, if I am not mistaken and he has certainly had a part in Edwards becoming the company they are today.




Back to Steiner and Bach.

[SwissTbone]

Bach posted something about him being an artist now
I think this is great for bach, hopefully he doesn’t pull an alessi

I do not like this portraying of Mr. Alessi. English is not my native language but I believe the “pulling a...” phrase refers to some kind of con artist or at least a dishonest person which is out of order here.

Being an Edwards Artist, I am extremely sad Mr. Alessi decided to switch to a different brand. But given all he has done for the trombone community, all his breathtaking solo recordings, his orchestral playing and his world class teaching, I think this is very disrespectful.
Mr. Alessi’s endorsement of Edwards has lasted many years, decades, if I am not mistaken and he has certainly had a part in Edwards becoming the company they are today.

Agree. Thanks for those words full of good sense.

[Elow]

Is he a great player? Yes. Did he lie about staying with edwards forever 1 month before he switched? Yes
Not trying to dog on him, but he did what he did. He was dishonest. He said he would play the edwards for the rest of his career on the 23rd of october, shires announced that he joined their team on the 1st of december. There is no way shires built a trombone model within a month. He knew he was switching and still said it, and even made a whole video about why he plays edwards.

[JCBone]

Is he a great player? Yes. Did he lie about staying with edwards forever 1 month before he switched? Yes
Not trying to dog on him, but he did what he did. He was dishonest. He said he would play the edwards for the rest of his career on the 23rd of october, shires announced that he joined their team on the 1st of december. There is no way shires built a trombone model within a month. He knew he was switching and still said it, and even made a whole video about why he plays edwards.

Fair point but you have to remember that the bussines world isn't exactly fair and honest.

[Posaunus]

This thread is not (or should not be) about Joe Alessi, Edwards, or Shires.

It is about Peter Steiner, his artistry, and his relationship with Bach.

Could you please move your tangential gossip and criticisms to another place?

[JCBone]

This thread is not (or should not be) about Joe Alessi, Edwards, or Shires.

It is about Peter Steiner, his artistry, and his relationship with Bach.

Could you please move your tangential gossip and criticisms to another place?

I know, stuff like this happens all the time within the business world. It really isn't such a huge deal.

[RustBeltBass]

This thread is not (or should not be) about Joe Alessi, Edwards, or Shires.

It is about Peter Steiner, his artistry, and his relationship with Bach.

Could you please move your tangential gossip and criticisms to another place?

Thank you.

[Bach5G]

“I know, stuff like this happens all the time within the business world. It really isn't such a huge deal.”

[harrisonreed]

I think it was strange/different that a guy like Peter was working with Thein to get them to build an instrument that was such a departure from what they normally make. It's great, now they have that horn, but Peter has such an influence from his teacher Alessi that it's surprising that he wasn't on a Bach or Edwards to begin with. Oh wait, I mean Shires.

Joke! That's a joke! Joking!

[Elow]

My pms are open for debate

[tbonesullivan]

I think it was strange/different that a guy like Peter was working with Thein to get them to build an instrument that was such a departure from what they normally make. It's great, now they have that horn, but Peter has such an influence from his teacher Alessi that it's surprising that he wasn't on a Bach or Edwards to begin with. Oh wait, I mean Shires.

Joke! That's a joke! Joking!

In the end, it's about money. Thein makes incredible horns, but I doubt they were going to be providing much in terms of endorsement $$$ to Steiner. Especially at their price point in the U.S., if you can even FIND them in the U.S.

However, Thein most likely new this, and looked at it much more as a chance to work with a top U.S. player to design and tweak an "American" style trombone. As it probably wasn't much of an endorsement deal, there may be not reason they can't keep saying "Designed with Peter Steiner". All depends on how things were set up, and since realistically Thein trombones are for a different market segment than the Bach Artisan, there won't be much competition.

One thing that pops to mind from my electric guitar fan self is the legendary Eddie Van Halen. Les Paul wrote the book on guitar endorsements. EVH REwrote it. He went through many endorsement deals during his prime and even up until his death. One time he had to leave a company mainly because they literally could not keep up with the demand. They made great instruments, but they were not big enough to make enough guitars, so he had to move on to a different company, and pretty much took their design with him, which he then took to another company later.

However, the first company STILL makes that model. It's still one of their most popular. Doesn't have EVH's name on it, but it's a great guitar that they put a lot into.

I think part of this is that we want to see musicians as being "above" the whole money thing, but they really aren't. Also, there's the whole Artist Relations thing, which the bigger companies seem to either do really good on, or fail miserably. Especially with giving the Artists what they are looking for, instead of trying to get the artist to say something thee company already developed is awesome.

[CBlair]

"I am the most loyal player money can buy." Don Sutton, respectable pitcher for six Major League teams.
CBlair