TromboneChat

Solo trombone with Paris Opera says trombones only last 10 years and you just buy another one.

Obviously not a subscriber to some of the darker corners of this site .

At 4:43.

Denis Wick said the same thing

Fake news, you actually new a new trombone every 6 months, send any “worn out” ones to me

Nahh, they wear out when (insert name of favorite endorsing player here) switches brands.

Pretty sure it depends on how loud you play.

Here is one of the interviewees Jean Raffard, and a fine soloist.

I found that they normally wear out after the second javelin toss...

When you actually play it several hours a day, yes, a horn wears out.

Being a bit pedantic here, but (assuming the subtitles are accurate - I don't speak French) he doesn't say the trombones wear out, just that they buy new ones every 10 years or so. Could be lots of reasons for that.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:51 pm When you actually play it several hours a day, yes, a horn wears out.

What would you say is the first part to fail, and after how long? Thayer valves might have a relatively limited service life, but well-maintained rotors and slides seem like they can keep going more or less indefinitely. Not sure what else there is to wear out on a trombone.

At the other extreme, I believe Gene Pokorny's tuba is coming up on 90 years old and still in regular use, and tubas are much more mechanically complicated than trombones.

He doesn't say "wear out". The most correct translation would be: an instrument holds up 10 years for us.

It boils down to the same though. What bothers me is that the interview is a little "cut together" so some stuff may be out of context or maybe a part where they explain their opinions more in depth has been cut out.

They seem to be of the same opinion on that topic though.

I heard that 10 year meme when I was taking lessons as an adult as well. Meanwhile, my 30 year old Yamaha 682 (bought while I was taking those lessons) is still going strong.

There are a couple of wear parts on a trombone. Prime one is the hand slide. The plating on the inner tubes (particularly on the stocking) can wear off. Especially if there was a dent or alignment issue. Secondary is the rotor valve. Some wear out and leak.

Very old brass tends to harden and get brittle. This can affect the level to which it can tolerate repairs.

The advent of boutique instruments represents a technology change that tends to make "fixed" horns less desirable for some. I don't play well enough to know the difference, but for some it matters.

There are a couple of reasons you might need to replace a trombone.

spencercarran wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:52 pm Being a bit pedantic here, but (assuming the subtitles are accurate - I don't speak French) he doesn't say the trombones wear out, just that they buy new ones every 10 years or so. Could be lots of reasons for that.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:51 pm When you actually play it several hours a day, yes, a horn wears out.

What would you say is the first part to fail, and after how long? Thayer valves might have a relatively limited service life, but well-maintained rotors and slides seem like they can keep going more or less indefinitely. Not sure what else there is to wear out on a trombone.

At the other extreme, I believe Gene Pokorny's tuba is coming up on 90 years old and still in regular use, and tubas are much more mechanically complicated than trombones.

Any moving parts and touch points. Slides wear out, rotors wear out. Tenons and slide receivers too.

Shhhh...

Don't tell my 1952 Bach 36, my 1947 King 2B, my 1974 Conn 88H or my 1975 Conn 62H.

They will put in for retirement, and I can't afford the pension payouts!!!!!

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:21 pmAny moving parts and touch points. Slides wear out, rotors wear out. Tenons and slide receivers too.

On what sort of timescale though? My instruments are all older than I am, some show signs of abuse from before they got to me, and the only parts that have ever failed to the point of needing replacement were those that suffered severe enough physical trauma to be beyond repair. Regular use (absent dropping the thing down a flight of stairs) would take quite a while to burn through the usable life of a trombone slide. I would expect most well-made, well-maintained brass instruments to outlive the buyer's children.

spencercarran wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:55 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:21 pmAny moving parts and touch points. Slides wear out, rotors wear out. Tenons and slide receivers too.

On what sort of timescale though? My instruments are all older than I am, some show signs of abuse from before they got to me, and the only parts that have ever failed to the point of needing replacement were those that suffered severe enough physical trauma to be beyond repair. Regular use (absent dropping the thing down a flight of stairs) would take quite a while to burn through the usable life of a trombone slide. I would expect most well-made, well-maintained brass instruments to outlive the buyer's children.

I think most people underestimate the amount of hand/face time these horns are getting in a professional environment. 5, 6 hours a day, every day, for years. I have older horns too, but none of them were used in that kind of environment. Especially with acidic people wearing away grip areas. I've played a Duo Gravis with a hole in the outer slide from just that.

I don't think every single horn is going to be clapped out after exactly 10 years in a professional orchestra, but there's not much point in trying to keep something working when you can buy a new one.

chromebone wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:39 pm Nahh, they wear out when (insert name of favorite endorsing player here) switches brands.

This is actually the closest in the thread to what I think they were getting at in the interview. Obviously, someone that knows French can feel free to say I'm wrong, but the two were talking about how composers oftentimes had a very specific role in mind for the trombone when they would write for it. The trombone is still a relatively new addition to the orchestra, so it makes sense that the trombone sound is not as standardized across the world as say, a violin. Any Stradivari would be a welcome addition to a string section, foreign or domestic, but we really can't say the same about a specific trombone maker. Our ears and tastes are evolving, as are those of conductors, composers, critics, and any other musicians that may be on an audition or tenure panel. It makes sense to me, then, that professionals at the top of our field are experimenting and finding new ideal instruments every decade or so.

In 2009 and 2010, the hype behind the Edwards Alessi model was astounding and led to players craving of a very specific sound and feedback from an instrument, at least that's how I remember it. 20 years before that, it was in fashion for players to ditch their rotors for something a bit more expansive-feeling. If we consider just the New York Philharmonic and the changing of personnel and difference in playing styles (not just in the trombone section) that occurred in the last decade, the switch makes sense to me.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:15 pm

spencercarran wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:55 pm
On what sort of timescale though? My instruments are all older than I am, some show signs of abuse from before they got to me, and the only parts that have ever failed to the point of needing replacement were those that suffered severe enough physical trauma to be beyond repair. Regular use (absent dropping the thing down a flight of stairs) would take quite a while to burn through the usable life of a trombone slide. I would expect most well-made, well-maintained brass instruments to outlive the buyer's children.

I think most people underestimate the amount of hand/face time these horns are getting in a professional environment. 5, 6 hours a day, every day, for years. I have older horns too, but none of them were used in that kind of environment. Especially with acidic people wearing away grip areas. I've played a Duo Gravis with a hole in the outer slide from just that.

I don't think every single horn is going to be clapped out after exactly 10 years in a professional orchestra, but there's not much point in trying to keep something working when you can buy a new one.

Add to that the length of French Grand Opera compared to only playing after intermission on a Masterworks concert too.

By that logic, all but two of my horns are worn out. It might just be when horns are past their prime, but I've played on several horns from before the Carter administration that best the demo horns at Midwest Clinic.

Professionals are lowkey insane, but in a good way, to use a trombone enough to have it fall apart in their hands.

tombone21 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:45 pm

Add to that the length of French Grand Opera compared to only playing after intermission on a Masterworks concert too.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:15 pmI think most people underestimate the amount of hand/face time these horns are getting in a professional environment. 5, 6 hours a day, every day, for years. I have older horns too, but none of them were used in that kind of environment. Especially with acidic people wearing away grip areas. I've played a Duo Gravis with a hole in the outer slide from just that.

Ok, that's a definite failure point on trombones. I borrowed an Edwards with a similar hole in the outer slide. It still played fine with a bit of electrical tape, but sure, a professional would want to replace that. For players with less acidic sweat or a $20 hand guard, that issue might not come up for a long time. (And of course if you're willing to play trombone of Theseus, a replacement slide is cheaper than a whole new instrument)

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:15 pmbut there's not much point in trying to keep something working when you can buy a new one.

New trombones cost several grand, right? While that's certainly not prohibitive if it's a piece of required equipment for your job, it's a bit heavier of a lift than buying a new pair of sneakers.

spencercarran wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:20 pm New trombones cost several grand, right? While that's certainly not prohibitive if it's a piece of required equipment for your job, it's a bit heavier of a lift than buying a new pair of sneakers.

Depends on the sneakers!

spencercarran wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:20 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:15 pmbut there's not much point in trying to keep something working when you can buy a new one.

New trombones cost several grand, right? While that's certainly not prohibitive if it's a piece of required equipment for your job, it's a bit heavier of a lift than buying a new pair of sneakers.

When you're making $150k+ as a tenured performer, $5k every 10 years to make your job and life easier is a tiny investment. Literally the most important "thing" you own at that point.

My teacher when I was in school (Ed Herman - Joe Alessi's predecessor) played Conn 8h's, as did so many others of his generation. I remember him telling me that the NY Phil used to do a train tour of the US every 2 years, and they would always stop in Chicago. The trombone section used to rent a car and drive to the Conn factory and he would always buy 2 new horns and have them shipped home. Then he'd sell the 2 horns he had been using for a heavily discounted price to some students who were in need of a good instrument, and would leave one of the new horns at home, and one at work. New horns every 2 years. He stopped that practice after Conn left Elkhart.

Back then, a new Conn trombone went for a couple of hundred dollars - I'm sure that a Bach 42 would have been a similar cost. Even with inflation and higher salaries, nobody could justify that practice now.You might have to wait a few months to get the particular Edwards or Shires that you picked out, and the cost is a much greater share of yearly income.

Jim Scott

I'll also point out that many other instruments wear out faster than trombones. Orchestral clarinetists will buy entirely new sets every 5 years because they are literally worn out. That's $3500 a pop at the low end, not to mention reeds and pads.

No one bats an eye at mechanics buying new tools (at huge expense) when they wear out... not sure why it would be any different for musical tools.

I'll give you $25 for your worn out bach corp 36k ; )

jbeatenbough wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:23 am I'll give you $25 for your worn out bach corp 36k ; )

Don't worry, that horn was not played nearly enough... It's safe with me

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:25 pm I'll also point out that many other instruments wear out faster than trombones. Orchestral clarinetists will buy entirely new sets every 5 years because they are literally worn out. That's $3500 a pop at the low end, not to mention reeds and pads.

No one bats an eye at mechanics buying new tools (at huge expense) when they wear out... not sure why it would be any different for musical tools.

Buy Snap on Tools equipment and they are guaranteed for life....costs a lot at the start, but you never pay again. As for trombones, unless you have acidic sweat, it's absolute bol-locks. Plenty of 50-60 year old trombones in regular pro use here. I sold a pro used '68 Conn62H to Bob Hughes back in the early '90's and it served him well enough 3 sessions a day, seven days a week....I bet it's still just as usable as when I sold it.
If you are happy to chuck it after ten years, it can't be that special.

Chris

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:23 am
If you are happy to chuck it after ten years, it can't be that special.

Chris

Not all horns are that special... in the end, they're just tools. I thought equipment didn't really matter...?

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:32 am

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:23 am
If you are happy to chuck it after ten years, it can't be that special.

Chris

Not all horns are that special... in the end, they're just tools. I thought equipment didn't really matter...?

It doesn't if you already have all the best stuff.....

Chris

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:23 amAs for trombones, unless you have acidic sweat, it's absolute bol-locks. Plenty of 50-60 year old trombones in regular pro use here. I sold a pro used '68 Conn62H to Bob Hughes back in the early '90's and it served him well enough 3 sessions a day, seven days a week....I bet it's still just as usable as when I sold it.

Agreed. Again... the original York tuba is still going, and will probably see over a century of regular professional use before it's scrapped.

Good brass is durable, especially if properly cared for.

I think the design folks at Yamaha have built their business practices around a similar concept to this. They are always introducing "new improved" versions of their pro models with new designations. Isn't there something that replaces Xeno now? I've forgotten what was the series that Xeno replaced. A lot of other companies introduce new valves, or signature models. There was a long time when your choices were Conn 8H/88H, Bach 42/42B, King 3B or Conn 6H, Bach 50B or Conn 62H. I know this is an abridged list, and people will want to add to it (fair enough). When the choices were limited and the quality was generally high by the standards of the day, and costs were lower in relation to income levels, people could change horns more frequently. Likewise, today an artist that is associated with a particular company might be getting the new improved versions either for a heavily discounted price or for free. Worth it for the company for advertising sake, but that artist might be changing their instrument often. When it was easy to replace the horn you played, you might be tempted to pick up a new one with no dents and scratches. Now there are "classic" horns that are quite different than the new offerings of the companies like Bach/Conn, and boutique makers like Shires/Edwards/Rath, etc. where the costs have come up and there might be a wait for the exact specs. that you want, making the average player will think twice about changing things out. Of course, forums like this have opened up a way to sell products outside of your local market. Modular horns mean that parts are sometimes replaced rather than the whole instrument.

Anyway, this is a long way of saying that horns can last a lot longer than a decade, but the desire to have something new is real. If a player is in a position to afford it, and they can find the quality they want, then why not. It helps keep the companies that produce those instruments in business. There wouldn't be too many trombone makers if we all were playing classic horns, and the techs would be busy keeping them working.

Jim Scott

CalgaryTbone wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:17 pm I think the design folks at Yamaha have built their business practices around a similar concept to this. They are always introducing "new improved" versions of their pro models with new designations. Isn't there something that replaces Xeno now? I've forgotten what was the series that Xeno replaced. A lot of other companies introduce new valves, or signature models. There was a long time when your choices were Conn 8H/88H, Bach 42/42B, King 3B or Conn 6H, Bach 50B or Conn 62H. I know this is an abridged list, and people will want to add to it (fair enough). When the choices were limited and the quality was generally high by the standards of the day, and costs were lower in relation to income levels, people could change horns more frequently. Likewise, today an artist that is associated with a particular company might be getting the new improved versions either for a heavily discounted price or for free. Worth it for the company for advertising sake, but that artist might be changing their instrument often. When it was easy to replace the horn you played, you might be tempted to pick up a new one with no dents and scratches. Now there are "classic" horns that are quite different than the new offerings of the companies like Bach/Conn, and boutique makers like Shires/Edwards/Rath, etc. where the costs have come up and there might be a wait for the exact specs. that you want, making the average player will think twice about changing things out. Of course, forums like this have opened up a way to sell products outside of your local market. Modular horns mean that parts are sometimes replaced rather than the whole instrument.

Anyway, this is a long way of saying that horns can last a lot longer than a decade, but the desire to have something new is real. If a player is in a position to afford it, and they can find the quality they want, then why not. It helps keep the companies that produce those instruments in business. There wouldn't be too many trombone makers if we all were playing classic horns, and the techs would be busy keeping them working.

Jim Scott

Jim, I don't think that anyone here would say that people have to play the same trombone for 30 years...it's just that the opening statement from the Frenchman is an obvious nonsense... I've used professionally a 170 year old trombone that still plays very well....

Chris

If anyone is so inclined, I would be happy to receive their Mount Vernon Bachs and Elkhart Conns to use for, uh, lamps and wall ornaments.

Again... everyone choosing to misinterpret "10 years" as instruments 10 years or older, not instruments used hard for 10 years straight.

Again, I don't think the players said anything about their trombones "wearing out."
They did say that they replace them every decade or so.
But that was (I believe) more a result of:
• fashion changing - e.g., the trend to larger bore trombones,
and
• the availability of snazzy new instruments that may be attractive to them as connoisseurs of fine trombones!
and possibly
• the trend to using different trombones more appropriate to various operatic repertoire.
... (I may have interpolated this last from nothing, since my French is lousy.)

I've played my Getzen 1062 for 22 years. I think it will still be here after I am long gone!

Chris - I basically agree with you, and 10 years is quite arbitrary. He might have been slightly mis-quoted, but he is right to say that quite a few professionals would be unlikely to be playing the same instrument as their daily driver for much more than a decade, at least without some serious work. Sometimes, these statements are published as a quick quote, rather than as a more nuanced statement.

I have a few older Conns in my collection. I'm not playing them regularly now, but I can't bring myself to sell them. Great instruments! At the same time, one thing that got me to decide to go to modern instruments was the constant tinkering with my older instruments to keep them usable. My 8H from the late 50s/early 60s is a great instrument, but the "Conn wear" on the slide stockings, coupled with a tuning slide that would slide in during performances, and the hand grip that had worn to a sharp edge - I cut my hand open on a gig - it was razor sharp! All of us who have played on these older horns has had some of these experiences.

Newer instruments also have issues - I brought my Edwards horns to the factory a few years ago, and they discovered that my Thayer (15 years old or so) was leaking badly. They replaced the valve - great work done quickly and at a very reasonable price! The difference was eye-opening. That was my point about modular instruments - a lot of instruments have parts replaced now, rather than the entire horn.

Anyway, lots of older brass instruments are in use professionally - I agree with you on that. At the same time, more players are playing mostly newer instruments at least on this side "of the pond". Here in Canada, most of the last of the "hold-outs" either retired or changed instruments over the last decade. I think that trend is even more prevalent in the US.

There are lots of older brass instruments that are still playable, and sound great for professional use. There are also a lot that are not usable any more, except maybe for parts. Charlie Vernon plays a NY Bach bell, for instance, but the rest of the horn is made up of modern parts. Friedman's horn was also a mix of parts. Slides and valves can be the first things to go.

Jim Scott

You can definitely render a brass instrument un-playable in 10 years.

I don't know if I've seen anyone mention maintenance yet so I guess I will:

Trombones, like almost every machine in this world are wear items and if you maintain them they can last a long while. Think about cars, your body.... etc

I'd say this is highly player dependent. I knew one guy who had to buy a new horn every half dozen years or so because he was so acidic that holes would start leaking in parts of metal of any horn he owned. Other full time professionals who played one main horn for more than twenty years. I had a student who destroyed his tenor sax in only a few months but...I read somewhere not including mechanical wear or corrosion, the metal on a brass instrument was good for more than a hundred years of vibrations. Hence horns and tubas from about a century ago that have had valve jobs, new lead pipes and so on but are still being played. trombones are pretty simple compared with horns and tubas, and trombones are still being improved, further busy proffesionals don't always have time to mess with an old horn that needs work, so it may be easier for many to just buy new. Bass trombones have been improved a lot in my lifetime. I've gone from Conn to Holton to Bach to Edwards to Shires and have a new Bach50A3 with an Edwards slide. Consequently I've never worn one out!

May be it was the budgeting period of the Opera and it does not hurt to remind the bureaucracy the need of money...

Denis Wick said he felt the instrument was blown out (rather than worn out) after 10 years when used by a PRO player 8-10 hours a day in rehearsalls/concerts/sessions and it was not the same for an amateur using the same instrument 1-2 hours a day

Others may remember exactly how he explained it, but as I recall Denis trombone changed 57/58 8h. 69 8h. 78 42 as conn was in that bad post Elkie phase and he retired in 1988

Music gets louder every ten years

Maybe for some people, horns are like cars. You can have a well maintained high mileage ten year old car that still looks and functions great, but trade it in due to boredom with it and/or the call of the shiny new bauble in the showroom...

as with cars, some players get itching for a new horn every so often!

I drive old cars too...a hopeless case....

Chris

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:27 pm I drive old cars too...a hopeless case....

Chris

That's until the next Carrington event (huge solar flare that will burn out electronics) in which case your old banger is more likely to still function--although getting petrol might be a challenge. Still, it will be a good time for acoustic music making.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:11 pm Again... everyone choosing to misinterpret "10 years" as instruments 10 years or older, not instruments used hard for 10 years straight.

Can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not misinterpreting this - I'm disagreeing. Brass instruments can and do last for an exceptionally long time, even under heavy use.

Now if by "used hard" you mean "used roughly and not maintained properly" that's a different story. We've all seen school owned instruments that were too far gone to be worth fixing up. But a trombone that's not abused won't suffer any major mechanical failure on such a short timeframe, and even when it eventually does rotors and slides can be replated, linkages can be adjusted or replaced, etc. If someone prefers to buy the next shiny new thing rather than spend time/effort maintaining something older, that's a choice too.

spencercarran wrote: ↑Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:55 am

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:11 pm Again... everyone choosing to misinterpret "10 years" as instruments 10 years or older, not instruments used hard for 10 years straight.

Can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not misinterpreting this - I'm disagreeing. Brass instruments can and do last for an exceptionally long time, even under heavy use.

And I disagree. If a horn has to be rebuilt after 10 years... It's worn out. It's not a bad thing, plenty of people do that. But it's possible and not even that hard.

I'm playing a 42 slide right now from the late 00s that is worn out. Played by one very serious student that took care of his instrument. The leadpipe is corroded, the tubes are red rotted, the chrome is worn, the nickel on the grips is worn through. He just played the snot out of it and now it needs all new tubes.

Bachs wear out...simple. A lot of other stuff lasts better.
Early Bachs last much better. 80's onward Bachs were built to wear out...I got that from a company rep.

Chris