Tenor Slides with Bass Bells

[Neo Bri]

If I take a bass slide and stick a tenor slide on it, does it really work? I don't have an easy way to test. But I've seen plenty of examples of bass slides on tenors. How about the other way around?

Or how about a .525" bore slide on a bass bell?

Or how about a dual-bore .525"-547"?

Do any professionals use setups like this?

Is the effect more tenory or bassy?

I'm imagining a dual-bore slide on a bass making basically a slide euphonium or bass flugel. I'm intrigued.

Discourse.

[Burgerbob]

I have a large-connector .525 that I could hook up to the bass. I have a feeling... I don't want to bias the results, of course... that it will be awful.

[modelerdc]

The King Symphony Bass was Kings bass trombone before the Duo Gravis. It had a 9 inch bell and a .536 bore and took a large shank mouthpiece. The bell at 9 inches it's not just a large bore tenor bell flared out another 1/2 inch, the throat is fatter, the sound is broader. Bart Varsalona was perhaps the 1st player to play bass trombone in big bands, and he used the King Symphony bass. The Cleveland orchestra also used the King Symphony Bass on 1st and 2nd trombone. Later on the King Symphony Bass was discontinued, But the King 5B used the same bell as the Symphony bass even though the rest of the horn was based on the 4B. Still later after both King and Conn wound up under the UMI umbrella, Conn would off the 88HK, which was an 88H with a larger 9 inch bell, made on the old King Symphony Bass mandrel. I have a conn 88HK bell set up to fit on a shires large bore tenor. With the 88HK bell and a mouthpiece like a 2G or 1 1/2G it plays like a smaller bass trombone. With a 4 or 5G you can pass it off as a super tenor, Yes, you can fit a .525 bore slide, though having done this I tell you that this combo plays but I don't see that it does anything better than more conventional horns such as a Bach 36. The large bell and small slide start to work at cross purposes, are you sure you want a slide French horn? A .562 bore slide works well, but that's getting real close to a regular bass bone. With a .547 slide it's a real sweet horn although I must admit that I don't use it all that much as for most work they expect you to bring a regular bass or regular tenor.

[sirisobhakya]

I tried using Bach 42 slide with Yamaha 830 bell once. The result is... unnoticeable, at least by ear. However, I might try again and use FFT to analyze it, as soon as I can get my hand on the 42 silde again, which could be a long time from now since Covid-19 case is back in Thailand and I sense lockdown coming...

[Arvopart17]

Not quite what you were getting at I know, but I primarily use an Edwards dual tenor .547/.562 slide on my 50A3. I like the way it compacts the sound and gives me a little extra to push against down low when I’m doubling.

I did quickly throw my Shires .525/.547 on there this morning. Let’s just say, not great

[whitbey]

Because of some custom work I have a 500/510 slide with a large connector. and a 525/547. a 547/562 and of course a 562 slide. I tried all the variations a few years ago. Smaller slides on the bass horn were terrible. One size smaller or bigger on the 547 horn worked well. The 525/547 on the 500 horn was playable if a back up was needed, but not fun. The 500/510 on the 547 horn played like a few German horns I tried.

[hyperbolica]

The bass-ish flare on a tenor is common enough, and works. Holton 156/158/159, King 5B, Conn 88hk, various Olds, Wessex Super tenor. The effect is a big Symphonic horn. Some in this list even have a dual bore 547/562 slide, which makes them hard to push up high, but gives nice weight under the staff.

Then there are a few horns like certain 70h and some Euro basses that are a real bass, but with 547/562 slides. I like this combination for some extra spark on bass. Ostrander used this setup in NYPhil. It conserves air (so it lengthens phrases) and lightens the slide and sound. You can still use your bass mouthpiece. I think it is a valid option in some situations.

Conn allows you to mix and match. The 88h connector works with the 62h connector, so you can get slides from 525 to 578 on tenor or bass bells.

I loved my Holton 156 - a straight tenor with a dual bore slide, but I only used it in a big orchestra.

I also loved my dual bore 70h - a single valve bass with a smaller slide. It worked ok for simple stuff with a small orchestra and big band.

I have put a dual bore Olds slide on my Kanstul 1662i , and it turns the velvet into bark/bite. It dials it back a little so i can push it more easily .

[Tbarh]

A Bach 42 slide on a 50 B for instance, works Great If You want a bass sound that works in a smaller Orchestra... The bell taper determine wether it is a bass or a tenor. Not the slide.... 562 on tenor.... Still a tenor... My strong opinion on this is that an 42B sized Bell section is not a bass No matter what slide...not for Mozart, Brahms or any of the classics....The other way around works Great..

[Neo Bri]

So when you folks are saying things like "not great" can you be more specific? What are the issues you're noticing?

[droffilcal]

I successfully used a 42 slide with a 50 bell for Beethoven, combined with a Marc George Roberts mouthpiece. I also have used the 42 slide with a Minick bass trombone bell, with the Marc or a 1-1/4G, and nobody knew that I was using a smaller slide -- sounded great (the 42 slide does blow quite open).

So with the right concept and technique, it can work, but if you compare back to back with a bass trombone slide you instantly hear that the 42 slide sounds smaller; it still sounds like a bass trombone, but with a dense, compact sound -- certainly worked in orchestral settings as well as shows and big band.

[Kdanielsen]

When I first started to learn bass trombone I used my tenor slide, which played very open (shires 547 with a bass crook and 3L leadpipe), on a Mack Brass bass bell section. It was a really great stepping stone and a cheap way to get into bass. I now play an Edwards B502i bass with a dual bore bass slide.

[Burgerbob]

So when you folks are saying things like "not great" can you be more specific? What are the issues you're noticing?

Wide .525 (bronze tubes, Shires yellow crook, large Bach connector on Bach 50K3, played with small shank 3G mouthpiece-

About what you would expect. Ever play a bass with a tiny mouthpiece? Large shank 6.5, for instance? A pretty similar result. Wide, nasal sound with weight. Low range is pretty stuffy, doesn't feel good. Feeling the weight and presence of articulations with what feels like a tenor piece is kind of fun... but that's all I get out of it.

[Burgerbob]

So with the right concept and technique, it can work, but if you compare back to back with a bass trombone slide you instantly hear that the 42 slide sounds smaller; it still sounds like a bass trombone, but with a dense, compact sound -- certainly worked in orchestral settings as well as shows and big band.

42 slide definitely works- I think the bass crook really sells it. You're right, A/Bing them you can tell, but if you handed me a 50 with a 42 slide, it would take me a while to notice. It plays quite well and sounds good.

[wthb42]

I am a tenor player that also plays on a Bach 50 dep valves that are soooo stuffy!!! Have fixed the double paddles to use thumb and middle finger. Works great. Have also tried 50 with 42 slides. How can I make this horn not so stuffy?

[Burgerbob]

I am a tenor player that also plays on a Bach 50 dep valves that are soooo stuffy!!! Have fixed the double paddles to use thumb and middle finger. Works great. Have also tried 50 with 42 slides. How can I make this horn not so stuffy?

Best of luck. There's a reason we don't see a lot of people playing stock 50B2s these days (I've owned 3!).