Alto Trombone Designs

[PNeiteler]

When looking at different alto trombones there is a big variety of different designs regarding the length of the slide. Most often a 7th position cannot be securely reached like a 7th position on a tenor trombone. Some instruments however clearly claim a very stable 7th position and some of those designs go for TIS in order to go for a longer slide design having a smoother conical bell taper. Many players consider those designs with a stable 7th position being superior to shorter slide designs.

I came across a Pfretzschner alto trombone which is consciously missing a 7th position, just going into an opposite design direction. The slide is extremely short and the 6th slide position is already “on the stockings” where you normally expect the 7th position on a tenor trombone. Those Pfretzschner alto trombones were only built with B-valve to overcome the problem of a missing 7th position. To my knowledge you couldn’t order those instruments without QV. Those old Pfretzschners are highly respected and nice sounding altos.

Why is there such a big variety of design concepts on alto trombones and what are the “trade-offs” you have to accept for designing a 7th position into the slide?

[harrisonreed]

The only time I use 7th position on alto is in conjunction with the Bb attachment, for low F or E.

Take the Conn 36H design. The side is long enough for A in 7th, even after you shorten the bell section in the tuning slides 3/8 of an inch. Shortening it this much mattress the bell almost conical, like the shires, and helps the partials/harmonics make sense.

I think an alto should just be designed like the shires is, with a conical bell section, a real 7th position, a tunable Bb valve. The only difference is that I would take the TIS slide they make, whatever the fully closed length is, and just not install the tuning mechanism altogether. You don't need it on alto. Or, if you just gotta have a tuning mechanism, give about an inch of pull on the slide crook at the end of the handslide. It would be a lot lighter than the current TIS.

[baileyman]

Seems like the designer is playing with the proportion of conical to straight tubing to get the sound s-he wants.

[hornbuilder]

The smaller the instrument, the less "wiggle room" to fit things in. On a big instrument, like a contra, you can get away with a lot! An alto is much more sensitive in that regard. It comes down to choices on the part of the designer, as to which features may be more important in the final instrument.

[modelerdc]

Why is there such a big variety of design concepts on alto trombones and what are the “trade-offs” you have to accept for designing a 7th position into the slide?

An instrument like the B flat trumpet has been through a lot of design cycles, so that it's very standardized, student instruments are much like the top of the line. Things that don't work or are just not popular have been abandoned. Like the trumpet the tenor trombone has been through a lot of design cycles and has become fairly well standardized, while the alto trombone has been made in much smaller numbers, so the alto is still evolving toward a generally accepted standard design. Also as Matt points out there's less "wiggle" room. I had a Yamaha Alto that many players said didn't have a full 7th position. I didn't have any problem with 7th as long as I made sure that my first position was not very far out from the slide bumpers. On a tenor you can play 1st pretty far out from the bumpers and there's room to stretch out, less so on the alto.

[Neo Bri]

What happens if you just took a standard tenor and scaled the horn down with the exact proportions of the tenor into an alto? Aside from the weird ergonomics it should play with the same basic goods and bads any other tenor. you'd have to scale the mouthpiece receiver and stuff down. Are there any good examples of an alto that is really just a mini tenor?

[modelerdc]

In theory it should play, but there will be issues. For example the part of the slide where the left hand goes to hold it up will be too small for most players. The slide will be too narrow for the neck of most players. The mouthpiece will come out about the size of an alto horn mouthpiece which will be too small for most players coming from tenor trombone. the bell won't be about 7 inches like most altos, but about 5 1/3 inches, this and the piccolo trumpet sized bore will give a sound that's too small to work in most ensembles. If you think about it most trumpet bells are about 4 3/4 inches, so if a tenor trombone had everything twice as big, then tenor trombones would have bells like a bass trombone and bores like tubas! A manufacture of trumpets once said that his piccolo trumpets all had piccolo flugelhorn bells because a trumpet bell made to scale for a piccolo trumpet would be so small as to sound toy like. Like wise only Andre the Giant would have a hand large enough to put in the bell of a properly scaled up bass French horn. A lot of things have to be adjusted when scaling instruments up or down especially the ergonomics.

[Hobart]

In theory it should play, but there will be issues. For example the part of the slide where the left hand goes to hold it up will be too small for most players. The slide will be too narrow for the neck of most players. The mouthpiece will come out about the size of an alto horn mouthpiece which will be too small for most players coming from tenor trombone. the bell won't be about 7 inches like most altos, but about 5 1/3 inches, this and the piccolo trumpet sized bore will give a sound that's too small to work in most ensembles. If you think about it most trumpet bells are about 4 3/4 inches, so if a tenor trombone had everything twice as big, then tenor trombones would have bells like a bass trombone and bores like tubas! A manufacture of trumpets once said that his piccolo trumpets all had piccolo flugelhorn bells because a trumpet bell made to scale for a piccolo trumpet would be so small as to sound toy like. Like wise only Andre the Giant would have a hand large enough to put in the bell of a properly scaled up bass French horn. A lot of things have to be adjusted when scaling instruments up or down especially the ergonomics.

In regards to the slide issue, you probably could closely base the alto off of a tenor trombone with one of the widest slides out there. If you stretch it a bit, you'll have a narrow slide, but not too much smaller than what you can get anyways.

Otherwise, I'd honestly go for something like the relationships in the saxophone family; yes, adjustments have to be made, but an alto is effectively a smaller tenor. It might not be perfect, but it isn't immediately the wrong direction either.

[paulyg]

What happens if you just took a standard tenor and scaled the horn down with the exact proportions of the tenor into an alto? Aside from the weird ergonomics it should play with the same basic goods and bads any other tenor. you'd have to scale the mouthpiece receiver and stuff down. Are there any good examples of an alto that is really just a mini tenor?

This is not how physics works. You would wind up with an unreasonably bright bell, and the pitch fundamental of the instrument would be lower than you'd anticipate.

[PNeiteler]

Why is there such a big variety of design concepts on alto trombones and what are the “trade-offs” you have to accept for designing a 7th position into the slide?

There is certainly a major conceptual difference having 6 or otherwise 7 slide positions. You won’t find such big differences on tenor trombones. I am not aware of any full Bb tenor trombone having only 6 slide positions.
A trombone with only 6 slide positions has a significantly shorter slide than a trombone with 7 stable positions. A 6 position slide has a significantly longer bell section. The question is why is an instrument designer willingly leaving out a 7th position (which is a strong argument) and simply going for 6 positions. There must be also advantages going this direction of only 6 slide positions. „Trade-off“ means that you might get some other advantages by accepting the disadvantage of a missing 7th position. I simply don’t understand the impact of a shorter slide in this case.

[BGuttman]

E in the bass staff and A at the bottom of the bass staff are rare notes in alto trombone literature, so there is less need for a 7th position on an alto. That said, I like my instrument with 7 positoions and a Bb attachment so that I can cover almost the full range of a tenor trombone (less E below the bass staff).

[modelerdc]

The problem with seventh position on the alto trombone isn't that there isn't one, but that it's uncomfortably close to the end of the slide. However I've found that in at least some cases, simply playing with 1st position a little further in than you have to on a tenor, moves 7th a little further in witch for me pretty much solved the problem. ?Also unlike the tenor where the tendency is to play the outer positions sharp as they are work to reach, on the alto, tenor trombone players can on alto, easily wind up playing progressively flatter was they go out, also leaving little room at the end of the slide for 7th position.

[Doug Elliott]

On any horn I like to have a little "safe zone" past the actual 7th position. If that is proportionally the same as on tenor, it's less distance and less safe. Also, the clearance between the inner and outer tubes tends to let it fall slightly and bind, sticking at the point where it's almost falling off.

[modelerdc]

On any horn I like to have a little "safe zone" past the actual 7th position. If that is proportionally the same as on tenor, it's less distance and less safe. Also, the clearance between the inner and outer tubes tends to let it fall slightly and bind, sticking at the point where it's almost falling off.

Exactly!