Just getting back into playing.... keep my King 6b or?

Hanlon92 · Post by **Hanlon92** » Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:32 pm

Hello all,
I used to be a member of the trombone forum back in the day, but it seems this is the replacement. So here’s my story...

At one point in time I was a bass trombone major. I ended up meeting my wife in college and taking a “real job” so that I could support a family. (She’s an artist and a horn player). After leaving college my primary instrument switched to guitar, as there were many more gig opportunities for that instrument. Guitar players who read music are apparently unicorns. So I ended up selling/trading my custom shires bass trombone for a king 6b single valve plus some cash.

Which brings me to my point about posting. After not really touching my trombone for about 7 years, I am now getting more opportunities to play and gig. I’ve discovered that i still have a pretty good sound, and that the king 6b actually fits my style of playing well enough. However, it’s a single valve setup. Since high school all I ever played was double valve, and a good bit of the parts I’m playing hang out in that low C and B natural range of the instrument. So at this point I’m considering swapping it for a double valve, modding the instrument to a double valve (if that’s even such a thing) or just dealing with it and learning to play a single valve bass. My budget for a mod/trade in at the moment is approximately 1k and since I have no idea what the king is worth, have no idea what that would get me since I’ve been out of this world for so long. So, what would you do?

(Mods forgive me if it’s in the wrong section)

Post by **BGuttman** » Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:16 pm

You sure it's a 6B? A 6B is dual dependent. Originally with flat E for the 2nd valve, but a set of extensions for the tuning slide can make it D (you picture is taking too long to load so I can't see it).

If it's a 5B (single valve Symphony) it's really a large tenor trombone. If your gigs are mostly on bass you should have a real bass (although to be fair a lot of the early Big Band players played 4th on a King Symphony).

If most of your gigs are lighter material, like Dixieland, Ska, or other popular music, you may want to invest in a small bore for those kinds of gigs. They can be had for pretty cheap -- much less than trying to do any repairs to your existing horn.

Note: your picture finally loaded. It's not a 6B. Probably a 5B (Symphony or 1480). And it doesn't fit well in that case, which probably was for a 6B.

If your playing is in the lower bass trombone range you might want to trade this in on a real double. The Benge 290 is a great double trigger indy bass and they go for not too much money. Or you can take the Chinese gamble (you could get a decent one or a dog -- lots of dogs out there).

Good luck and welcome to the Chat.

paulyg · Post by **paulyg** » Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:24 pm

You're gonna be fine.

Take a watch at the slide technique of really first-class players- they basically ignore the fact that they have a valve until it becomes ABSOLUTELY necessary.

Hanlon92 · Post by **Hanlon92** » Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:39 pm

BGuttman wrote: ↑Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:16 pm You sure it's a 6B? A 6B is dual dependent. Originally with flat E for the 2nd valve, but a set of extensions for the tuning slide can make it D (you picture is taking too long to load so I can't see it).

If it's a 5B (single valve Symphony) it's really a large tenor trombone. If your gigs are mostly on bass you should have a real bass (although to be fair a lot of the early Big Band players played 4th on a King Symphony).

If most of your gigs are lighter material, like Dixieland, Ska, or other popular music, you may want to invest in a small bore for those kinds of gigs. They can be had for pretty cheap -- much less than trying to do any repairs to your existing horn.

Note: your picture finally loaded. It's not a 6B. Probably a 5B (Symphony or 1480). And it doesn't fit well in that case, which probably was for a 6B.

If your playing is in the lower bass trombone range you might want to trade this in on a real double. The Benge 290 is a great double trigger indy bass and they go for not too much money. Or you can take the Chinese gamble (you could get a decent one or a dog -- lots of dogs out there).

Good luck and welcome to the Chat.

I’m actually fairly certain it’s a 6 b.... or at least that’s what the bell says. See pic below

Post by **BGuttman** » Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:50 pm

This horn is a hybrid. The 6B (Duo Gravis, 2106) was a dual dependent. Somebody put a 6B bell on a 5B chassis. I've never seen a single valve 6B.

greenbean · Post by **greenbean** » Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:03 pm

I think you have a 6B (Duo Gravis) bell and main tuning slide put on a 4B bell section.

I wonder what the slide is?... (I can see that it is pretty beat. What is that water key doing?..).

The best course of action would be to pick up a good double. And keep this for fun or for a project.

Hanlon92 · Post by **Hanlon92** » Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:41 pm

Man. Now you guys have me curious. I am surprised that it would be combined with a tenor horn, because this horn feels and plays like it’s an enormous horn. As far as the slide, the valve needs to be reattached, but i remember comparing it to my old shires bass trombone and this one felt way bigger and required more air. But that could be me basing it off of when I was likely a more efficient player. Is there a way to to check what type of slide is on it?

Post by **BGuttman** » Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:48 pm

The 4B and 5B use an 0.547" slide. The 6B uses an 0.562" slide. You can try measuring at the stockings, although the inner slide may have been expanded to create the stocking.

Looking at the first picture, is there collapsed tubing on the return side of the attachment going into the valve?

Posaunus · Post by **Posaunus** » Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:01 pm

Hanlon92 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:41 pm Is there a way to to check what type of slide is on it?

Sure. Just measure the I.D.of both inner slides, at the stocking end, with digital calipers. If the slide is from a King 4B (as the tubing wrap suggests to me) they will be 0.547" diameter. If they're from a "true bass trombone" they'll be 0.562" diameter. If they're some other dimension, or different upper from lower, then they're from a different King model / era. In that case, Bruce Guttman (who knows loads more about the old King trombones than I do) can probably help you identify the donor.

In any case, it appears that you have a true "Frankenbone," stitched together from multiple sources!

euphobone · Post by **euphobone** » Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:48 pm

greenbean wrote: ↑Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:03 pm I think you have a 6B (Duo Gravis) bell and main tuning slide put on a 4B bell section.

I wonder what the slide is?... (I can see that it is pretty beat. What is that water key doing?..).

The best course of action would be to pick up a good double. And keep this for fun or for a project.

Yeah. A late 80s/early 90s 6B Bell (I think they made them up until 1991, I could be wrong) since it is marked 2106, on a late 60s/70s 4B/5B based on the trigger style and all metal linkage. Here is my early 70s Duo Gravis for comparison, recently had the triggers split.
If you like your horn, fix it and play on.

20201205_010344.jpg

Hanlon92 · Post by **Hanlon92** » Sat Dec 12, 2020 6:28 am

BGuttman wrote: ↑Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:48 pm The 4B and 5B use an 0.547" slide. The 6B uses an 0.562" slide. You can try measuring at the stockings, although the inner slide may have been expanded to create the stocking.

Looking at the first picture, is there collapsed tubing on the return side of the attachment going into the valve?

I’ll check the diameter when I get home from work today and see.

As far as the tubing, that’s fine. With the exception of the water key, The horn is in good playing condition.

Kingfan · Post by **Kingfan** » Sat Dec 12, 2020 9:11 am

I always thought the Duo Gravis was never given the 6B designation. Egg on my face! Maybe when King was transitioning to the 7B and they put this nomenclature on it. I can't wait to find out what the bore is. Maybe somebody took a DG and made it a single valve horn. Stranger things have happened...

euphobone · Post by **euphobone** » Sat Dec 12, 2020 9:33 am

Kingfan wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 9:11 am I always thought the Duo Gravis was never given the 6B designation. Egg on my face! Maybe when King was transitioning to the 7B and they put this nomenclature on it. I can't wait to find out what the bore is. Maybe somebody took a DG and made it a single valve horn. Stranger things have happened...

Yeah, it was called the 7B for a few years I think but was only marked Duo Gravis on the bell. Check out this page from an old king catalogue. You'll also notice the 5B used to be a .536 bore, not until years later was 5B used to designate the later version with the 4B slide and valves with a 9" bell, when they also redesigned the F attachment wrap and rotor.
Chuck Ward and George McCracken were involved in the redesign, I think, but they definitely designed the Duo Gravis.

Models(1).jpg

Kingfan · Post by **Kingfan** » Sat Dec 12, 2020 9:53 am

OK, I have an independent valve King bass marked 2107 on the bell, but not 7B. I often see it called a 7B, though... Is it a 7B? I can't imagine King using the same model name for different trombones...

euphobone · Post by **euphobone** » Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:20 am

Kingfan wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 9:53 am OK, I have an independent valve King bass marked 2107 on the bell, but not 7B. I often see it called a 7B, though... Is it a 7B? I can't imagine King using the same model name for different trombones...

Yup. 7B.
Here is a brief list of the King number/name iterations used since during the past 50 years. All the same instruments. The 4B through 8B had a few ergonomic modifications during the 80s through modern times. The 6B 7B and 8B were completely discontinued in the late 90s. Modern 4BFs had further ergonomic modifications to match the Benge/Conn style trigger. Not sure if the 5B is still made, but the 2B through 4B are.

By ergonomic I mean: bell brace moved behind the F trigger, finger ring removed, trigger style changes, etc. 3B 4B 5B would have an F after the B or the 21## to indicate the F attachment model. Not sure if it was stamped on the bell, though.

2B Liberty 2102
2B+ 2115
3B Concert 2103
3B+ 2125
4B Sonorous 2104
5B Symphony 2105
6B Duo Gravis 2106
7B 2107
8B 2108

Sorry, this turned on my King Nerd switch. And if any of the information I listed is wrong, the group can correct me.

Kingfan · Post by **Kingfan** » Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:32 am

The catalog page you posted above shows the 1490 Duo Gravis as a 7B, not a 6B. I have two similar catalogs, one from 1971 and one from 1973, and both have the DG as a 7B. You mention King Nerd like that's a bad thing...

Hanlon92 · Post by **Hanlon92** » Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:33 am

So still not off work to measure. But I do have a picture of the valve section. I notice now what looks to be an old joint where the tuning crook meets the bell

euphobone · Post by **euphobone** » Sat Dec 12, 2020 12:44 pm

Kingfan wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:32 am The catalog page you posted above shows the 1490 Duo Gravis as a 7B, not a 6B. I have two similar catalogs, one from 1971 and one from 1973, and both have the DG as a 7B. You mention King Nerd like that's a bad thing...

Right. I guess I didn't really make my point very clear.

I don't think anyone refers to the Duo Gravis as the 7B.
The bells were engraved with Duo gravis, and there was never a Duo gravis engraved with 7B, even though the duo gravis model number was 1490 7B in these early 70s catalogs. When the next 7B and subsequent 8B were developed, they then changed the model number of the duo gravis to 6B/2106. Cause, why have 2 bass bones with the same model number? It's already confusing enough!

Being a King Nerd is never a bad thing. And I'm always learning new things, or unlearning preconceived notions.

So the Model number of my Duo Gravis would have been 1490 7B at the time of it's manufacture.

Kingfan · Post by **Kingfan** » Sat Dec 12, 2020 1:24 pm

OK, Hanlon92, enough of us King Nerds hijacking your post. What bore size do you have???? The suspense is killing me!

Hanlon92 · Post by **Hanlon92** » Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:42 pm

Couldn’t find the calipers today. (I think they’re in the room with my sleeping son). However, I measured it using a monkey wrench and ruler, and it looks to be a .562 on the slide. The slide and the f attachment tubing are the same size.

Kingfan · Post by **Kingfan** » Sun Dec 13, 2020 7:39 am

Are you checking the inside diameter of the inner slide tube and the F attachment tubing?

Posaunus · Post by **Posaunus** » Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:13 pm

Hanlon92 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:42 pm Couldn’t find the calipers today. ... However, I measured it using a monkey wrench and ruler ...

That sounds like a trick answer. Not sure how you measure tubing Inside Diameter with these tools!

Is it a left-handed monkey wrench?

Hanlon92 · Post by **Hanlon92** » Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:47 pm

I definitely measured the outside. Replacement calipers are arriving in the mail tomorrow to measure the inside more precisely and I’ll have the answer for you all

Jimprindle · Post by **Jimprindle** » Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:53 pm

Well, I have never liked King basses (Conn, Bach or Shires for me in my 50 yr pro playing). But I love their tenor, I have a vintage 3B Silversonic which I enjoy playing. But I know others are enthusiastic about King basses.

My advice is to just keep it as is and enjoy it as you like, and then buy a better bass trombone than that for your practical needs. My two cents, won’t even buy you a bus ride

Hanlon92 · Post by **Hanlon92** » Sun Dec 13, 2020 5:30 pm

Jimprindle wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:53 pm Well, I have never liked King basses (Conn, Bach or Shires for me in my 50 yr pro playing). But I love their tenor, I have a vintage 3B Silversonic which I enjoy playing. But I know others are enthusiastic about King basses.

My advice is to just keep it as is and enjoy it as you like, and then buy a better bass trombone than that for your practical needs. My two cents, won’t even buy you a bus ride

Thanks Jim! Not sure if you remember.... but you were actually my teacher back in high school.... 10 years ago.... haha

SlideCrook · Post by **SlideCrook** » Sun Dec 13, 2020 10:53 pm

Ah, the King 5.5B

This horn is not stock. The bell is a 2106. The ferrules don’t match betwixt the valve wrap and the goosechase. King tuning slides have a rounded, knurled edge to them. Those from the bell, tuning slide, and gooseneck are from Allied. Notice the fat side main tuning slide ferrule looks just like the one on your all’s Getzen... with the chamfer

Get that dribbler fixed and measure the inner slide ID (and valve tubing ID). Id love to see some more pictures of the slide and everything.

If you had a square rod for the valve lever with “MINICK” stamped onto it with a pullable lead pipe, it would probably fetch a lot on eBay.

“MINICK King 5.5B Solo Gravis”

Hanlon92 · Post by **Hanlon92** » Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:00 pm

The moment you all have been waiting for.... the bore size is .562. The calipers I bought measure .56 (doesn’t measure the last digits) on the interior at the bottom of the slide, and the tubing for the trigger. Does that help?

Kingfan · Post by **Kingfan** » Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:40 pm

Hanlon92 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:00 pm The moment you all have been waiting for.... the bore size is .562. The calipers I bought measure .56 (doesn’t measure the last digits) on the interior at the bottom of the slide, and the tubing for the trigger. Does that help?

Yes; it answered some questions, and raised more. How the heck did this horn get made, and by who? King prototype that escaped the factory? Does the rotor match the F tubing bore? That said, a single valve .562 King bass is what I wanted all along... If you decide to move it on to somebody else, please keep me in mind.

Hanlon92 · Post by **Hanlon92** » Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:50 pm

Here’s a picture of where the valve connects... there’s definitely some evidence of it being not original...

Post by **BGuttman** » Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:28 pm

Looks like somebody removed the 6B valve section and replaced it with a 4B or 5B valve section. They also had to do some jockeying with the bell connection since the bell doesn't point directly ahead like it should. Perhaps the 4B tuning slide was used as well.

Kingfan · Post by **Kingfan** » Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:22 pm

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:28 pm Looks like somebody removed the 6B valve section and replaced it with a 4B or 5B valve section. They also had to do some jockeying with the bell connection since the bell doesn't point directly ahead like it should. Perhaps the 4B tuning slide was used as well.

I don't have my good micrometer handy, just a cheap plastic one, darn it! I just compared my 4B-F and 7B valve casing diameters and valve section tubing. The 7B has slightly bigger tubing, enough to be .015 larger than the 4B tubing based on seat of the pants test, and noticeably bigger diameter valve casings, so it can't be a valve-and-tubing swap from a smaller horn. Hanlon92, can you measure the ID of the valve tubing and the OD of the valve casing? Bet you never thought we'd be dragging you down this rabbit hole with us... Sorry!

Posaunus · Post by **Posaunus** » Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:29 pm

You can purchase a decent digital caliper at Harbor Freight for less than $20:

https://www.harborfreight.com/6-in-digi ... 63711.html

Accurate to +/- 0.001 inch or 0.03mm

euphobone · Post by **euphobone** » Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:10 pm

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:28 pm Looks like somebody removed the 6B valve section and replaced it with a 4B or 5B valve section. They also had to do some jockeying with the bell connection since the bell doesn't point directly ahead like it should. Perhaps the 4B tuning slide was used as well.

I agree.
FranKingBone
90s 2106 with a late 60s to late 70s 5B or 4B valve section grafted on. The work of a mad scientist.

Hanlon92 · Post by **Hanlon92** » Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:15 pm

I took pictures of everywhere I measured with the calipers. Maybe this helps? Pardon the long thumbnail... guitar still is my top instrument

Hanlon92 · Post by **Hanlon92** » Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:15 pm

Pt 2 of the pictures

Post by **BGuttman** » Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:30 pm

Looks like the tubing is approximately 0.020" thick so your slide measures 0.56(2)" and so does the valve tubing.

I'm pretty sure the 4B had 0.562" tubing in the attachment, and so did the 6B. My 7B has larger tubing (0.580") in the attachment. The 6B, 7B, and 8B all had 0.562" slides so I bet they kept the 6B slide as well as the 6B bell.

I wonder who wanted a single trigger "6B"?

boneagain · Post by **boneagain** » Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:54 am

OP asked "what would you do?"

First I would measure to find out what I really have. Looks to me like you did a nice job on the measuring. I agree with Bruce's assessment of what you have.

This is not any version of 5B. I like that horn (or a Benge 190F) for 3rd bone when the lead is on alto. Plenty of debate on whether "the" 5B is a bass or not. There were so many versions that there is not "the" 5b. And listening to Bart Varsalona on, say Kai Winding recordings leaves no doubt in MY mind that HIS version WAS a bass (even if the tubing was small by 2020 standards.) But this is not one of those, so that debate is not needed here.

So it is largely 6B.

As SlideCrook noted, the gooseneck is NOT a 6B part. This is a critically tapered part. McCracken (who designed the 6B and much of the 7B and 8B but none of the Benge line, and who also designed the later versions of the 5B) put a lot of effort getting the 6B gooseneck "just so." Outside dimension is fine for this.

OD after ferrule near valve: .630
OD before small tuning leg ferrule: .676
OD INNER small tuning leg: .683
OD small end of bow: .704
OD large end of bow: .870
OD INNER large tuning leg: .930
OD bell after large tuning outer tube: .950

These all form part of the taper that is the "magic sauce" (along with mouthpiece cup shape) that make a trombone play every partial even though a closed tube only plays every OTHER partial. Changing this taper changes how those partials line up. That, in turn, makes subtle differences in how well (or poorly) notes over the fundamental buzz frequency are reinforced.

If your measurements are far off from the above, you might want to record a few things and listen carefully to make sure the timbre matches the "sound in your head." You can make minor adjustments with mouthpiece changes, but it would be tough to get just the right parts to match the original 6B taper from valve to bell if that had had other parts thrown in.

If you like the timbre there is one other significant concern. In my experience the 6B hand slide was on the short side. On a Conn 72H I could get a nice, fat, in-tune C below the staff. With the 6B I had to either retune the F slide or use the second valve. I found myself playing most of those C's with the second valve.

If you measure the un-lipped pitch at full hand slide extension and find that it is way high you may want to reconsider using this as a single-plug horn.

You may also want to try pulling those two F attachment slides and seeing how good the low B is. Those have become much more common since the dominance of the double trigger bass. If you can't even reach them, to say nothing of reaching them with fluency, another horn might suit you better.

If, on the other hand, the timbre and the tuning meet your needs, this is a really interesting instrument. I have always preferred the feel of a single valve bass. Behind the bell I like the sound better too. And the older I get the happier I am to have LEFT weight poorly cantilevered in my left hand. You might find that, if you start playing much, this single valve horn has fewer unintended consequences for your fret-board hand.

Thanks for posting the pictures! neat horn!

Kingfan · Post by **Kingfan** » Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:11 am

I just measured my 4B-F and and 7B using a cheap micrometer that only goes to .01 accuracy, similar to what Hanlon92 used. The 4B-F measured .55 bore for the slide and F attachment, which make sense for a .547 horn. The 7B is .56 all the way, so is .562, just like Hanlon92's horn. The valve section isn't a graft from a large bore tenor. I just sent an e-mail to Chuck Ward to see if he can shed some light on this one of none trombone.

Kingfan · Post by **Kingfan** » Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:35 pm

OK, I got this back from Chuck.

"Hi Greg, the 6B has a 9 1/2” bell. Anything is possible. The large tenors had a .547” slide and F attachment with an 8 1/2” bell. Chuck Ward"

I followed up with pictures of the bell and the whole horn, and asked him to let me know if he had any other input.

Vegasbound · Post by **Vegasbound** » Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:58 am

Imho, forget what you used to do, your just back to the horn stick with what you have work on your chops, have some lessons (I had a 10 year break and it is amazing what you forget) speed up your return

Then in 6-12 months and the world is back to something like it used to be then change horn

boneagain · Post by **boneagain** » Fri Dec 18, 2020 6:15 am

Kingfan wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:35 pm OK, I got this back from Chuck.

"Hi Greg, the 6B has a 9 1/2” bell. Anything is possible. The large tenors had a .547” slide and F attachment with an 8 1/2” bell. Chuck Ward"

I followed up with pictures of the bell and the whole horn, and asked him to let me know if he had any other input.

I like this part: "Anything is possible."

The F section has what looks like the original King orange lacquer. The rest of the work was not relacquered. My guess (just a guess) is that the valve section was grafted as a unit, including the valve.
The layout looks very "King." The rotor itself has removable plates on BOTH sides (we can see a retaining ring on the stop-arm side) just like on the (original but not later run) Duo Gravis. But the knuckles are not like those on either of the Duo Gravis rotors.

Another possibility is a "reset to zero" error by the caliper operator (don't ask how many times I've done THAT!)

But "Anything is possible."

But if SOMEone (like George McCracken or Chuck Alexander) had wrapped .562 tubing around the .547 F slide bending blocks AND added custom knuckles to a Duo Gravis rotor, that would have been custom work they would have remembered. Especially if it had been to produce JUST a .562 single F valve section. McCracken would never have let the joint between the valve and bell tenon leave the King shop or his own.

I LOVE a good mystery

What should I do with my King 6b?