TromboneChat

Someone already touched on it, but I think the handslide is just too complicated to keep running well. You either learn to put up with poor action, or come up with a lubricant system that works for you after spending hours reading about the chemical properties of Trombotine and distilled water on this website.

I know Willson inner tubes are chromium-coated, but I really don't know much more than that. If there was a way to manufacture slide tubes that seal well while needing no extra lubricant, I can't see how everyone wouldn't jump on that.

Carbon tubes could be an answer, but the stigma around playing something that different would take a long time to shake off and normalize, not to mention costs being way higher and a definite change to the sound and feel of the entire instrument. There must be a better way.

What about ball bearings?

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:41 am It is the same concept as the "reversed tuning slide". Basically, the inner profile of the sound path is only going increasing in size as it progresses through the horn .

"Reversed" tuning slides (à la many Conn & King trombones) are actually FORWARD tuning slides, in that they (appropriately) increase the inner diameter in the direction of air flow. I think they're only called "reversed" because they are opposite to the design of the dominant manufacturer (Bach?).

skeletal wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:27 am What about ball bearings?

Not sure you could make that work. A ball bearing would allow the tubes to rotate around each other but that's not the type of motion you want.

A ball bearing without an inner race might work, but you may run into sealing problems.

FWIW, most inner slides are chrome plated now since it provides the best sliding surface at reasonable cost.

BigBandBone.

Here is the M&W single TIS. The same horn can be made as TIB. This bell is similar to the large bell 62H, but we can also do the smaller flare of the 70 series.

Foot operated plunger mute. Then I can hold my bass while wah-wahing.

bigbandbone wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:03 am

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:10 pm

It's one of the couple single basses ever made with a real low B. Good enough! Almost no singles have that anyway.

Hey Burgerbob,
I know you've played some vintage Conns. Didn't you find they had solid low C's when tuned to F and solid low B's when pulled to E.

After a good warmup today I got out my tuner out and nailed an in tune low C. Then pulled to E and nailed an in tune low B. I use a vintage Conn Strobotuner which is calibrated correctly.

I'd love Conn to dust off the old bell mandrels and assembly jigs and re-issue the 70 series basses.

I have! Even those are marginal, and just about the only ones. Takes quite a short bell section, long slide, and long pull on the F attachment.

I would like to see a modern well built seven position
C-Trombone. Not the Yamaha Child-trombone with five positions but a modernized "Preacher-model". It could come with an optional whole tone trigger section. Maybe they are made by someone already, but in that case I have not heard of them.

/Tom

Alto trombone with valve with optional crooks so the valve could be set up for 1/2 step, whole step or for a fourth.

A really good double slide contra in B flat, easy to play and with a great sound.

A double slide contra in E flat with a 8 position slide, the when the B flat valve is pressed you would still have 6 positions. a removable second valve for when low E is required.

As noted in an earlier post the ability to custom design a mouthpiece online and have it rapid prototyped and shipped to you for a reasonable price.

Imsevimse, you have given me another project!!

Hardly innovations but bringing back things that were once common and were left behind.
-Basses in Eb or F with the long slide and handle, but in modern bass trombone bore and bell size, with modern construction (not to play everything, but to be used for repertoire originally written for "true" bass trombones and/or substituting for contra)
-More options of rim styles aside from french bead (soldered or not), and particularly things like Nuremberg-style rims with the wide garland and thick rim wire soldered on the outside of the rim.

sacfxdx wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:36 pm Foot operated plunger mute. Then I can hold my bass while wah-wahing.

Or how about foot operated mute insertion device for any mute?

Vegastokc wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:55 pm
Or how about foot operated mute insertion device for any mute?

Nah. With my luck it would be a foot in mouth operation.

On the reverse hand slide idea:

I number of years ago a guy came through my shop with a Bach 42B that had been modified that way. The cross brace was attached to the top tube only, and had a ring around the lower tube. I don't remember his name and I don't know whatever happened with that horn, but I had a chance to play it. I can say that it was different, but not remarkable.

modelerdc wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:08 pm Alto trombone with valve with optional crooks so the valve could be set up for 1/2 step, whole step or for a fourth.

Rath makes exactly this alto ^

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:47 pm Hardly innovations but bringing back things that were once common and were left behind.
-Basses in Eb or F with the long slide and handle, but in modern bass trombone bore and bell size, with modern construction (not to play everything, but to be used for repertoire originally written for "true" bass trombones and/or substituting for contra)

Nearly agree with this. Better make sure that slide has 7 positions!

I'd like to hear what an F bass with modern bass trombone proportions and construction would sound like. I would bet it's a better bridge to the tuba than what we currently have. This should definitely come back to the orchestra.

Valve pitches could be C and Db/D. It does not need to be .562/.578 for the slide, either. For me, I'd keep the bell section compact like some German contrabasses.

The thing is, I'd keep the Eb as a contrabass with a double slide. That's one heck of a long slide if it weren't doubled over itself. And as a bass I think it'd be pretty raspy. So it should stay as a contra. It should make a comeback and be further improved, like...

Two valves, in C and Bb. The slide should be long enough to give a solid 6th position for the Bb valve. Maybe give the bell section a compact wrap? (And then screw bell it, just because, to see how small we can get the case for such a beast. )

Quality controls for all manufacturers has increased over the years, but I think it could still get better. Not going to name brands, but if all of the mechanical functions of the horn don't work its hard for me to justify playing it. Even if it can be fixed or improved by a local tech.

MTbassbone wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:12 pm Quality controls for all manufacturers has increased over the years, but I think it could still get better. Not going to name brands, but if all of the mechanical functions of the horn don't work its hard for me to justify playing it. Even if it can be fixed or improved by a local tech.

QC costs money. You are paying somebody to make sure it's made right or fix any errors. There are people at the end of the auto manufacturing lines who drive the cars a few feet either to a shipping station (if it works OK) or to a repair lot (if it doesn't). Your purchase price has to pay these guys' salaries. Same thing with a musical instrument.

Some companies spend a lot of money trying to make manufacturing stable enough that the guys checking at the end of the line have less work to do (and maybe you can pay fewer of them). Some companies don't give a **** and it goes from the line to the box. Low price, and you are buying a lottery ticket. Maybe you win and it works, and maybe you don't and it's lamp grade.

Making it easier to get a modular G/Gb attachment in place of an F-attachment.

Also, some way to get a real Eb2 on a straight horn without false tones, or just a way to have a reachable 8th position in general.

I want wireless triggers, like top end bicycles have wireless shifting.

If you use small buttons like sprint shifters, you could mount them anywhere. On the slide, foot pedals, wherever.

It could revolutionise bass trombone ergonomics.

Andrew

biggestbrain wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:39 pm
Also, some way to get a real Eb2 on a straight horn without false tones, or just a way to have a reachable 8th position in general.

I think the solution to the straight horn Eb2 is to play a trombone pitched in A, or Eb (which exists).

biggestbrain wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:39 pm Making it easier to get a modular G/Gb attachment in place of an F-attachment.

Also, some way to get a real Eb2 on a straight horn without false tones, or just a way to have a reachable 8th position in general.

I feel like certain trombone models, like the 42BO, could literally just sell cut down slides for G and Gb, given the way they're put together.

Also, in a pinch, depending on your tuning slide, you can get an Eb2 out without false tones.

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:21 am I'm not sure I get how you make a dependent ascending valve though. If the ascending valve is in the F valve wrap, that will actually give you Bb/F/G, so it would need to be the opposite, F valve in the small ascending valve wrap, but that seems like a design nightmare, fitting a valve in such a small wrap, and would take out any possibility of having a tuning slide in the ascending valve wrap. It also still has the air go through both valves when playing on the Bb side, so there's no real advantage to having it be dependent (i.e. the only side of the horn that would involve only one valve would be the C side). Or am I missing something?

I guess I wrote it backwards. The ascending C valve is the first valve, and then the F valve is nested inside the C valve. This means you cannot use both valves at once as when the ascending valve is engaged, the air does not go through it and thus also not the F valve.

This didn't come out of thin air; Voigt did make orchestral tenors in this configuration and at least one has shown up on the forum in the past.

With independent you could have it either as Bb/F/C/G or Bb/C/Eb/F, both sound like really practical options (the second might be a bit heavy and less useful for tenor but sounds like lovely a lovely idea for bass).

The independent version didn't come out of thin air either. In addition to the compact Bb/F/C/G bass a forum member made, Thein offers (or at least offered?) a trombone with an ascending C valve, with the option for adding an independent F valve. The Thein website focused mostly on the fact that with a full-length Bb slide, the trombone has 8 positions on the C side. This would make perfect 5th glisses possible, among other things. But I focused on the possible positions with such a configuration, as well as Bb/asc. C/E/Gb, and they both have a really intriguing set of positions. The one disadvantage for both is there's no short position for low D and Db.

I hadn't thought of Bb/C/Eb/F actually, I'll have to add that to the spreadsheet.

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:47 pm -Basses in Eb or F with the long slide and handle, but in modern bass trombone bore and bell size, with modern construction (not to play everything, but to be used for repertoire originally written for "true" bass trombones and/or substituting for contra)

Agreed, and also in G! Personally, I'd like to see/hear/play how they feel in modern .562 bass trombone bore, as well as modern .547 tenor bore, as the old true basses were often the same bore as the tenors.

An attachment that will allow a gliss from D (middle line) to G (4th space). This was actually written into a part I was given -- and it was not written for a G bass.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:24 pm

MTbassbone wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:12 pm Quality controls for all manufacturers has increased over the years, but I think it could still get better. Not going to name brands, but if all of the mechanical functions of the horn don't work its hard for me to justify playing it. Even if it can be fixed or improved by a local tech.

QC costs money. You are paying somebody to make sure it's made right or fix any errors. There are people at the end of the auto manufacturing lines who drive the cars a few feet either to a shipping station (if it works OK) or to a repair lot (if it doesn't). Your purchase price has to pay these guys' salaries. Same thing with a musical instrument.

Some companies spend a lot of money trying to make manufacturing stable enough that the guys checking at the end of the line have less work to do (and maybe you can pay fewer of them). Some companies don't give a **** and it goes from the line to the box. Low price, and you are buying a lottery ticket. Maybe you win and it works, and maybe you don't and it's lamp grade.

I don't mind paying more money for a product that works and plays well.

A five leg stand so sax players can't tip it over.

Oh, wait, got that already.

baileyman wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:25 am A five leg stand so sax players can't tip it over.

Oh, wait, got that already.

Well, you've got one.

I would like to see a bass trombone in G like the one Larry Minnick built for Jeffrey Reynolds, but with specs more like a bass trombone ( tighter Bell taper)... Would be ser up to use standard Bb bass trombone slide of course....

Tbarh wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:37 pm I would like to see a bass trombone in G like the one Larry Minnick built for Jeffrey Reynolds, but with specs more like a bass trombone ( tighter Bell taper)... Would be ser up to use standard Bb bass trombone slide of course....

Would using the same length slide work? I imagine you would need a longer slide to move a larger fraction of tubing.

Some sort of inner coating that prevents any internal corrosion and keeps any grime from sticking.

Elow wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:47 pmWould using the same length slide work? I imagine you would need a longer slide to move a larger fraction of tubing.

You could use a Bb length slide, but you'd only have six positions. Any notes that would be in 7th position would be played on the valve.

JohnL wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:30 pm

Elow wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:47 pmWould using the same length slide work? I imagine you would need a longer slide to move a larger fraction of tubing.

You could use a Bb length slide, but you'd only have six positions. Any notes that would be in 7th position would be played on the valve.

Assuming you have one...

Elow wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:47 pm

Tbarh wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:37 pm I would like to see a bass trombone in G like the one Larry Minnick built for Jeffrey Reynolds, but with specs more like a bass trombone ( tighter Bell taper)... Would be ser up to use standard Bb bass trombone slide of course....

Would using the same length slide work? I imagine you would need a longer slide to move a larger fraction of tubing.

No, Just longer Bell section to put it in G... The outer positions are covered with the second Valve... Means that You Will not get any deeper, but thats not the point..

Frankly, I'm still looking for the horn that plays itself...

More seriously, a more ergonomic independent bass.

Warren

Tbarh wrote: ↑Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:08 am

Elow wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:47 pm

Would using the same length slide work? I imagine you would need a longer slide to move a larger fraction of tubing.

No, Just longer Bell section to put it in G... The outer positions are covered with the second Valve... Means that You Will not get any deeper, but thats not the point..

It’s not that simple. Making the bell section longer to create a bass trombone in G, does not keep the same seven slide positions. Each position must be longer and at least one position would be lost, possibly more. Can any of our math-whiz people out there calculate exactly how many positions (or fractions of positions) we would lose if a minor third was added only to the bell section?

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:28 pm ... Can any of our math-whiz people out there calculate exactly how many positions (or fractions of positions) we would lose if a minor third was added only to the bell section?

We know that adding a major 4th will result in a loss of one slide position on a Bb slide (only 6 F attachment positions, and on some shorter slides the 6th is lost as well). Most likely we will have 6 solid positions if the instrument is in G, but not a 7th.

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:28 pm

Tbarh wrote: ↑Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:08 am No, Just longer Bell section to put it in G... The outer positions are covered with the second Valve... Means that You Will not get any deeper, but thats not the point..

It’s not that simple. Making the bell section longer to create a bass trombone in G, does not keep the same seven slide positions. Each position must be longer and at least one position would be lost, possibly more. Can any of our math-whiz people out there calculate exactly how many positions (or fractions of positions) we would lose if a minor third was added only to the bell section?

I did write that the outer positions would be covered by the Valves, right?

Arm length would be at least as important as slide length...

I think the absolute biggest area for equipment improvement is with lubes.

There is NO lubrication system that works across all the temperatures and environments a reasonably busy trombone player encounters. Heck, most lubes from the same manufacturer don't play nice with each other.

I want slide lube that doesn't curdle from the heat, tuning slide grease that doesn't thin when it touches valve oil and gum up the whole horn, and some thin bearing oil that stays on for longer than 15 minutes. Don't get me started with body chemistry interactions.

tombone21 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:25 amI know Willson inner tubes are chromium-coated, but I really don't know much more than that.

Pretty much all inner slide tubes are chromium-plated. Willson used something else (titanium nitride, if memory serves) for a while, but they went back to chromium.

If the inner and outer slides included materials with opposite magnetic polarities, would the slide ride like maglev trains? Not that I want iron/steel slides nor slides that slick magnetically to music stands/trombone stands/chairs/etc..... I doubt this hair-brained idea would ever work.

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:36 pm Imsevimse, you have given me another project!!

Hope to see that done. If you do, please share!

/Tom

ChadA wrote: ↑Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:50 pm If the inner and outer slides included materials with opposite magnetic polarities, would the slide ride like maglev trains? Not that I want iron/steel slides nor slides that slick magnetically to music stands/trombone stands/chairs/etc..... I doubt this hair-brained idea would ever work.

The point of maglev is to keep the slide from touching itself, you would still need to have stockings and the associated lubrication in order to have a good seal.

Hobart wrote: ↑Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:49 pm

ChadA wrote: ↑Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:50 pm If the inner and outer slides included materials with opposite magnetic polarities, would the slide ride like maglev trains? Not that I want iron/steel slides nor slides that slick magnetically to music stands/trombone stands/chairs/etc..... I doubt this hair-brained idea would ever work.

The point of maglev is to keep the slide from touching itself, you would still need to have stockings and the associated lubrication in order to have a good seal.

The stockings have two functions.

They are a low friction bearing surface that the outer slide rests on.

And they are the reduced clearance area that helps with the seal.

It's possible with some kind of maglev you could separate the two functions and optimize each separately.

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:47 pm Hardly innovations but bringing back things that were once common and were left behind.
-Basses in Eb or F with the long slide and handle, but in modern bass trombone bore and bell size, with modern construction (not to play everything, but to be used for repertoire originally written for "true" bass trombones and/or substituting for contra)

Yes, but with double slides (in the style of that Miraphone BBb contra) so regular-size humans can reach everything in approximately alto trombone length positions. The long handled slides seem like they'd antagonize the woodwind section.

I don't at all understand the point of contrabass trombones with fewer than 7 slide positions.

spencercarran wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:31 pm

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:47 pm Hardly innovations but bringing back things that were once common and were left behind.
-Basses in Eb or F with the long slide and handle, but in modern bass trombone bore and bell size, with modern construction (not to play everything, but to be used for repertoire originally written for "true" bass trombones and/or substituting for contra)

Yes, but with double slides (in the style of that Miraphone BBb contra) so regular-size humans can reach everything in approximately alto trombone length positions. The long handled slides seem like they'd antagonize the woodwind section.

I don't at all understand the point of contrabass trombones with fewer than 7 slide positions.

Double slides are really hard to keep aligned and running well long term though. The long slide with the handle is more forgiving with tuning too.
In my experience the long slide actually helps force the hand of however decides on the stage set-up to give us more space, which ends up benefitting both us and the woodwinds. Of course it's not always possible when it's really tight though.

spencercarran wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:31 pm

I don't at all understand the point of contrabass trombones with fewer than 7 slide positions.

well, that's why they have valves. I don't need anything past 4th position on my contra.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:43 pm

spencercarran wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:31 pm

I don't at all understand the point of contrabass trombones with fewer than 7 slide positions.

well, that's why they have valves. I don't need anything past 4th position on my contra.

Fair enough, but it'd be nice to have access to the long glisses...

spencercarran wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:47 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:43 pm

well, that's why they have valves. I don't need anything past 4th position on my contra.

Fair enough, but it'd be nice to have access to the long glisses...

Well, I'd say there's a reason we don't see widely-used double slides or long slides with handles. They both suck in different ways. My slide would have to be a foot longer with a handle to get 7th (as well as my bell section being radically shorter). And double slides are generally awful. It's a big trade off to play the couple glisses that might come up, instead of being able to play all the written music more easily.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:24 pm

spencercarran wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:47 pm

Fair enough, but it'd be nice to have access to the long glisses...

Well, I'd say there's a reason we don't see widely-used double slides or long slides with handles. They both suck in different ways. My slide would have to be a foot longer with a handle to get 7th (as well as my bell section being radically shorter). And double slides are generally awful. It's a big trade off to play the couple glisses that might come up, instead of being able to play all the written music more easily.

Even staying in close positions, I personally find it much easier with the handle than without. The positions are so far away from each other, I find it needlessly strenuous without a handle. The handle is clumsy at first and took me a while to get used to, but assuming it's a good universal/ball/3-axis joint, I find it improves rather than impedes agility.