TromboneChat

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:59 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:24 pm

Well, I'd say there's a reason we don't see widely-used double slides or long slides with handles. They both suck in different ways. My slide would have to be a foot longer with a handle to get 7th (as well as my bell section being radically shorter). And double slides are generally awful. It's a big trade off to play the couple glisses that might come up, instead of being able to play all the written music more easily.

Even staying in close positions, I personally find it much easier with the handle than without. The positions are so far away from each other, I find it needlessly strenuous without a handle. The handle is clumsy at first and took me a while to get used to, but assuming it's a good universal/ball/3-axis joint, I find it improves rather than impedes agility.

Well, there's another innovation needed: make the doubled slide tubes flexibly mounted so that they adjust to the alignment in use. It may be the rigid mounting that makes them awful.

baileyman wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:32 am

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:59 pm

Even staying in close positions, I personally find it much easier with the handle than without. The positions are so far away from each other, I find it needlessly strenuous without a handle. The handle is clumsy at first and took me a while to get used to, but assuming it's a good universal/ball/3-axis joint, I find it improves rather than impedes agility.

Well, there's another innovation needed: make the doubled slide tubes flexibly mounted so that they adjust to the alignment in use. It may be the rigid mounting that makes them awful.

There was a guy that did this... did he call it the jazzbone or something? Had a spring mount on the second inner.

They were not positively reviewed.

Cheers,
Andy

German slide stays from the late 17th to well into the 20th century were often "floating", where the top outer is not actually soldered to the stay and it can follow the top inner regardless of its alignment with the bottom tubes. It kind of works in that slides that aren't super well aligned still run okay and much better than if the outer was rigid, but it also makes them bever truly great either. My guess is on a double contra slide it would be pretty bad.

ChadA wrote: ↑Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:50 pm If the inner and outer slides included materials with opposite magnetic polarities, would the slide ride like maglev trains? Not that I want iron/steel slides nor slides that slick magnetically to music stands/trombone stands/chairs/etc..... I doubt this hair-brained idea would ever work.

Ferromagnetic metals lose their polarity over time. Or, if it's driven by electricity, that requires wires and a battery which adds weight.

Another thing I wish were more common - even more than left-handed triggers for the oddballs like me - are options for consistent slide widths between horns of different bore sizes. Playing left-handed, I need a wide slide on jazz and alto 'bones due to having a wider than average neck and an embouchure occlusion that causes the horn angle to go to the right. I don't know of any good reason why "small bore" horns are always constructed with narrow slides except that is what people are used to.

AndrewMeronek wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:28 am Playing left-handed...

Left handed trombone player? That's just crazy talk.
What's next, a left handed guitar player?

Seriously though, when you were learning to play, did you naturally start on your left hand or did you start "normal" and eventually switch?
Also, I envision a band director standing next to you and hitting you on your knuckles with a baton every time you put the horn in your left hand.

Vegastokc wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:00 pm ...

Seriously though, when you were learning to play, did you naturally start on your left hand or did you start "normal" and eventually switch?
Also, I envision a band director standing next to you and hitting you on your knuckles with a baton every time you put the horn in your left hand.

Only if the BD was wearing a nun's habit and it was St. Somethingorother School Band.

Vegastokc wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:00 pm Left handed trombone player? That's just crazy talk.
What's next, a left handed guitar player?

Seriously though, when you were learning to play, did you naturally start on your left hand or did you start "normal" and eventually switch?
Also, I envision a band director standing next to you and hitting you on your knuckles with a baton every time you put the horn in your left hand.

My band director was left-handed, and he was fine with however I felt was comfortable.

'My band director was left-handed, and he was fine with however I felt was comfortable.'

I'm also a leftie. The MD of a band I payed in a while back was also left handed and a trombone player.

Slightly off topic but seeing as you mentioned it - I'd be interested to know if left handedness is more prevalent amongst trombone players than in the wider community. And how many of those play left handed.

Back to the topic - lubricating valves is a bit of a chore. The oil can go into places where its not needed like up into the F attachment tubing or down into the hand slide.

Would it be feasible to drill a small diameter bore into the valve shaft which connected with appropriately located drillings in the valve body.

To lubricate the valve you would undo the valve cap and inject oil into the hole in the shaft and the oil would end up exactly where it is needed.

I think it would reduce oil consumption quite a bit.

Thoughts?

I suspect fewer lefties on trombone.

PhilE wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:38 am ...
Back to the topic - lubricating valves is a bit of a chore. The oil can go into places where its not needed like up into the F attachment tubing or down into the hand slide.

Would it be feasible to drill a small diameter bore into the valve shaft which connected with appropriately located drillings in the valve body.

To lubricate the valve you would undo the valve cap and inject oil into the hole in the shaft and the oil would end up exactly where it is needed.

I think it would reduce oil consumption quite a bit.

Thoughts?

Olds actually did this 70 years ago. I don't know why the idea never caught on. Maybe JohnL knows.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:57 am

PhilE wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:38 am ...
Back to the topic - lubricating valves is a bit of a chore. The oil can go into places where its not needed like up into the F attachment tubing or down into the hand slide.

Would it be feasible to drill a small diameter bore into the valve shaft which connected with appropriately located drillings in the valve body.

To lubricate the valve you would undo the valve cap and inject oil into the hole in the shaft and the oil would end up exactly where it is needed.

I think it would reduce oil consumption quite a bit.

Thoughts?

Olds actually did this 70 years ago. I don't know why the idea never caught on. Maybe JohnL knows.

I haven't pulled one apart in a while, but I seem to recall that the Olds system only put oil on the back bearing (i.e., the one that's part of the casing). It was probably originally developed so you could get oil to the back bearing on those Olds rotors with the "hidden" bumpers, though you'll find it on Olds valves with conventional stop arms, too.

Remember that it's common practice to use a different oil on the valve body than is used on the spindles. You'd need a separate oiling system for each. Not sure how that would work - maybe an oil port on the casing? Of course, that'd be a potential entry point for all kinds of crud.

timothy42b wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:23 am I suspect fewer lefties on trombone.

Requiring almost no dexterity, most lefties play the trombone right handed.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:40 pm

Kingfan wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:23 pm Remote control water key. Button somewhere near the mouthpiece/slide tenon area that can be pushed without taking your hand off the horn.

Already done! Germans did this starting at least 60 years ago, probably more.

How come these aren't more common. It would be very useful.

JCBone wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:43 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:40 pm

Already done! Germans did this starting at least 60 years ago, probably more.

How come these aren't more common. It would be very useful.

Weight, complexity, fragility. One actually came on my contra slide (from '60s Germany) but was removed because it was so finicky.

I can see the upsides in some applications, but I'd rather have something simple and light than something fancy any day of the week.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:57 pm

JCBone wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:43 pm
How come these aren't more common. It would be very useful.

Weight, complexity, fragility. One actually came on my contra slide (from '60s Germany) but was removed because it was so finicky.

I can see the upsides in some applications, but I'd rather have something simple and light than something fancy any day of the week.

Controversial opinion: no water key at all is better than a bad water key

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:26 pm

timothy42b wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:23 am I suspect fewer lefties on trombone.

Requiring almost no dexterity, most lefties play the trombone right handed.

That is probably true for some, but I suspect another reason applies also.

We've had this discussion a number of times, and conventional wisdom is just force the lefties to play right handed. I think for a good share of them this is too frustrating and they quit. Depending on the reasons for left handedness, they may be more easily frustrated, though some of this is controversial.

paulyg wrote: ↑Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:28 pm I think the absolute biggest area for equipment improvement is with lubes.

There is NO lubrication system that works across all the temperatures and environments a reasonably busy trombone player encounters. Heck, most lubes from the same manufacturer don't play nice with each other.

I want slide lube that doesn't curdle from the heat, tuning slide grease that doesn't thin when it touches valve oil and gum up the whole horn, and some thin bearing oil that stays on for longer than 15 minutes. Don't get me started with body chemistry interactions.

When I was younger, I used to have issues where when I would oil my valve, I would leave the horn put together, but then my slide would get really sticky and crappy. It seems a lot of valve oils do NOT mix well with the slide oils and can cause them to harden or thicken?

Taking the horn apart was an easy solution, but in the event I need to oil my valve really quickly on a gig or something...

I'm sure everyone here knows the anecdote about Slide Hampton playing lefty only because that's the way the trombone was handed to him when he started.

Finetales wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:32 pm I'm sure everyone here knows the anecdote about Slide Hampton playing lefty only because that's the way the trombone was handed to him when he started.

He appears to have been right handed but played left handed. A bit odd

"They gave me the trombone left-handed and I played it that way. It's the only thing I do with my left hand."

/Tom

timothy42b wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:46 am We've had this discussion a number of times

Indeed!

But my observation about slide widths, wide necks, and embouchure occlusions has nothing to do with playing left-handed, except how the angles happen to line up for me. The same problems can happen to right-handed players.

Okay, i might be going crazy, but i really have put some thought into modular slides and i really think it could work. If you just add one screw on part on each brace of the slide and have a tightening mechanism on the crook like saxes have for their necks, it’s a pretty simple idea. I mean, wouldnt having the option of changing between dual bore and single bore and different metals be so nice instead of buying a new slide.

Elow wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:32 pm Okay, i might be going crazy, but i really have put some thought into modular slides and i really think it could work. If you just add one screw on part on each brace of the slide and have a tightening mechanism on the crook like saxes have for their necks, it’s a pretty simple idea. I mean, wouldnt having the option of changing between dual bore and single bore and different metals be so nice instead of buying a new slide.

I feel like if this idea was cheaper than buying a new slide to the specifications that you want, or if the choice of slide materials wasn't already pretty much dictated by what the bell section is made of, this would already be a thing.

I'm not sure how you could keep everything in alignment with removable slide parts. It's hard enough with soldered slides! Not to mention the added weight and trying to keep it all from flying apart in use. Even TIS systems fail sometimes.

Maybe my dreams are flawed I guess a lightweight slide could help, maybe a two piece brace instead of 3 piece. Crook would be a problem for alignment, so maybe having parts that have very tight tolerances like how edward bells had that flange that was threaded and had to be perfect to line up, but that would add more weight. Maybe on a rainy day ill order some parts and try some things

timothy42b wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:46 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:26 pm

Requiring almost no dexterity, most lefties play the trombone right handed.

That is probably true for some, but I suspect another reason applies also.

We've had this discussion a number of times, and conventional wisdom is just force the lefties to play right handed. I think for a good share of them this is too frustrating and they quit. Depending on the reasons for left handedness, they may be more easily frustrated, though some of this is controversial.

My dad's lefty and he's always played his instruments (trombone and dulcimer) like a normal person.

I do agree with @AndrewMeronek about the frustration of narrow slides on small bore horns. Uncomfortable, for me at least and apparently some others. A small bore tenor is still the same length of pipe as a large tenor or even bass, so I can't think of a particular reason why it has to have a narrower slide crook.

I honestly have to say the opposite about wide slides- I'm one of the people who's fingers cannot comfortably get their finger to the mouthpiece with wide slides.

I wish they'd return to the age of pointer finger rings on trombones, if done well they work.

spencercarran wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:54 pm

timothy42b wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:46 am

That is probably true for some, but I suspect another reason applies also.

We've had this discussion a number of times, and conventional wisdom is just force the lefties to play right handed. I think for a good share of them this is too frustrating and they quit. Depending on the reasons for left handedness, they may be more easily frustrated, though some of this is controversial.

My dad's lefty and he's always played his instruments (trombone and dulcimer) like a normal person.

I do agree with @AndrewMeronek about the frustration of narrow slides on small bore horns. Uncomfortable, for me at least and apparently some others. A small bore tenor is still the same length of pipe as a large tenor or even bass, so I can't think of a particular reason why it has to have a narrower slide crook.

CL might be the most famous left handed trombonist. He did all right.

Small bores having a narrow crook changes the way it plays, of that I'm certain.

It also lets you have a longer overall slide (especially if the design also shortens the bell section), which might explain the slide vibrato you can get in first on a lot of small bore horns. I wonder if a Bb length slide with a 1 inch wide crook would get 8 positions?

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 6:06 am ...

It also lets you have a longer overall slide (especially if the design also shortens the bell section), which might explain the slide vibrato you can get in first on a lot of small bore horns. I wonder if a Bb length slide with a 1 inch wide crook would get 8 positions?

The Getzen Slide Trumpet has a crook like that and it's a PITA to maneuver.

If you make the crook about 1 inch (2.5 cm) you still won't make 8 positions unless you shorten the bell quite a bit (and add that to the slide).

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 6:06 amSmall bores having a narrow crook changes the way it plays, of that I'm certain.

Changes the way it plays, sure. Changes it in a way that's uniformly bad for small tenor, but not for large tenor or bass? I guess I don't know, since I've never encountered a small tenor with wide crook. Maybe it would wreck the acoustics of the instrument somehow.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 6:06 amIt also lets you have a longer overall slide (especially if the design also shortens the bell section), which might explain the slide vibrato you can get in first on a lot of small bore horns. I wonder if a Bb length slide with a 1 inch wide crook would get 8 positions?

Wide Bach and Holton bass slides still have 7 positions with room to spare. IME they also have a usable 6th position on the F side, provided the player's arm is long enough. It's got to be a tiny number of trombonists who can physically use, much less feel any need for, a longer slide than is already standard on wider crook instruments.

spencercarran wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:46 am Maybe it would wreck the acoustics of the instrument somehow.

It doesn't. I have a wide-slide .508 Shires, and it plays great. In many ways, the best jazz horn I've ever seen. The only quirk that I've found so far is that the 13th partial up in trumpet land is a bit squirrelly. But on trombone, that's not an issue at all, as we're used to using the slide to dial things in anyway, pitch-wise. And I'm sure this is a solveable problem for someone who won't mind throwing a lot of $$$ at multiple prototypes.

Changing crook width does change the sound and response of an instrument. I have a Bach 36 (which starts out... Medium wide?) which I had converted to wide with a Shires crook. Same .525 size, same material, and I think even the same overall length (so not longer). It now plays a bit larger and sounds more 42ish.

I know that the Wide Glide crook was quite popular, converting .508 horns to a much wider slide.

Re: lefties, a leftie friend who is also an engineer converted his Holton bass so he could play it left-handed. The valves were the tricky part.

Re: innovations, I like to see a small case in which to keep my collection of Elliott mpc parts. I realized this morning that I’m up to about six combinations: C, E4 and E8, G, H, and K, along with a bunch of rims.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 12:37 pm Changing crook width does change the sound and response of an instrument. I have a Bach 36 (which starts out... Medium wide?) which I had converted to wide with a Shires crook. Same .525 size, same material, and I think even the same overall length (so not longer). It now plays a bit larger and sounds more 42ish.

I know that the Wide Glide crook was quite popular, converting .508 horns to a much wider slide.

Of course. "Change" does not necessarily mean "wreck" - that's what I was contextualizing.

Compared to a "narrow slide" trombone, my horn does play more open, with a bit of a warmer sound. But it retains characteristics of small-bore horns that people like, particularly the better high-range stability and endurance. And because it's more open, I feel it's easier to control dynamics.

AndrewMeronek wrote: ↑Sun Nov 29, 2020 2:39 pmOf course. "Change" does not necessarily mean "wreck" - that's what I was contextualizing.

I think we're all in agreement on that point. It will certainly change the instrument's response, but not necessarily for the worse, depending on what you want to use it for and the player's individual preferences. Which just gets back to the question of why wide slides on small tenors are so uncommon.

spencercarran wrote: ↑Sun Nov 29, 2020 2:48 pm

AndrewMeronek wrote: ↑Sun Nov 29, 2020 2:39 pmOf course. "Change" does not necessarily mean "wreck" - that's what I was contextualizing.

I think we're all in agreement on that point. It will certainly change the instrument's response, but not necessarily for the worse, depending on what you want to use it for and the player's individual preferences. Which just gets back to the question of why wide slides on small tenors are so uncommon.

Because there is almost no demand, and the designers must likely think the trade-off would not work as well. Even Shires/Edwards do not produce a trombone with this option, and if anyone could it would be them. For reference they make such weird options as extra large dual-bore bass slides, and bass bore tenor slides -- stuff that only works well for a few people on the whole earth.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Nov 29, 2020 4:16 pmFor reference they make such weird options as extra large dual-bore bass slides, and bass bore tenor slides -- stuff that only works well for a few people on the whole earth.

I agree that those work well for very few people. Many more people choose to use them though, so guess it's all about market demand.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Nov 29, 2020 4:16 pm Even Shires/Edwards do not produce a trombone with this option, and if anyone could it would be them.

...

AndrewMeronek wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 12:07 pm I have a wide-slide .508 Shires, and it plays great.

Anyway, it's certainly a bit of a pain to tool up for a different crook width, but no more so than any tuning slide or valve wrap curve. I imagine most custom builders would do so if asked, but they aren't asked all that often, and some of those requests are then probably set aside when a price is mentioned.

ithinknot wrote: ↑Sun Nov 29, 2020 5:33 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Nov 29, 2020 4:16 pm Even Shires/Edwards do not produce a trombone with this option, and if anyone could it would be them.

...

AndrewMeronek wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 12:07 pm I have a wide-slide .508 Shires, and it plays great.

Anyway, it's certainly a bit of a pain to tool up for a different crook width, but no more so than any tuning slide or valve wrap curve. I imagine most custom builders would do so if asked, but they aren't asked all that often, and some of those requests are then probably set aside when a price is mentioned.

I mean, I have a 36H with a mechanical linkage . Doesn't mean that is on the menu lol.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sun Nov 29, 2020 1:31 pm Re: innovations, I like to see a small case in which to keep my collection of Elliott mpc parts. I realized this morning that I’m up to about six combinations: C, E4 and E8, G, H, and K, along with a bunch of rims.

I thought one of the attractions of the Elliott system was that it would get you off the mouthpiece merry-go-round, and that you'd be playing everything on a similar rim, with perhaps varying cup depths, thus vastly reducing your collection?

Just keep the appropriate mouthpiece with each horn.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:01 pm

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sun Nov 29, 2020 1:31 pm Re: innovations, I like to see a small case in which to keep my collection of Elliott mpc parts. I realized this morning that I’m up to about six combinations: C, E4 and E8, G, H, and K, along with a bunch of rims.

I thought one of the attractions of the Elliott system was that it would get you off the mouthpiece merry-go-round, and that you'd be playing everything on a similar rim, with perhaps varying cup depths, thus vastly reducing your collection?

Well, I’m mulling over ordering a LB 113 rim because, you know, that 2/10ths of a millimetre might be the answer.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:11 pm Just keep the appropriate mouthpiece with each horn.

Makes sense!

It’s not quite that simple. The C can go in my alto, and small and medium tenors, the Es can go in my medium and large tenor, the F and G can fit into my medium and large tenors and the K into either of two basses. 101, 102 and 104 rims.

Maybe I misunderstood the concept?

Doug's suggestion is that you have one combination that works best with each horn and you keep that one with the horn.

I find that a LT E cup works best on most of my small and medium bore horns, so I have a pouch with a 102N rim on an E cup with E2, E4, and EI6 shanks (the latter one works on a Chino-Bone that has a Medium receiver -- neither small nor large).

I’m with Doug. I have enough parts that I keep a full mouthpiece with each horn. Except some of them have silver rather than Lexan rims. In case I manage to get somewhere and discover that I borrowed the rim for another horn, I also have a spare non-Elliott mouthpiece in each case. But maybe that works because I only have one alto (c), small bore (c), medium bore (e), and large bore (g). Clearly I’m a slacker on owning trombones. I also have a small, solo alto horn (a) and a bass trumpet. The latter does not have an Elliott mouthpiece dedicated to it because it is only used for traveling when I want a compact, beater to keep up my chops. To me the concept was staying on the same rim for all of them.

However, if you want to minimize buying parts and maximize the chance of leaving all your mouthpieces at home, take a look at pelican or other foamed lined cases for cameras or astronomy eyepieces. They are easily customized. I suggest a lining that can be cut with a box knife rather than the pick and pluck foam. Those choices might be too coarse for rims and shanks.

Bring back the fluted slides.
Stop fooling around with so many lead pipe options. (Just one is enough).
Stop naming trombone materials after famous people, in hope that it's going to sell the product ("This is the new Frank Rosolino slide spray!!")

I'd like to see quarter turn mechanism for valve caps and mouthpieces, or other places you might cross-thread really fine threads.

Lol, here's what I want, before another valve type or bell material comes on the market:

Bumper pads that are silent, not squishy, and don't compress even after 100 years of non-stop valve activation.
Witness marks that actually work. Seriously, I don't even know why they bother on a lot of the horns. The witness mark itself must be actually in the right place, and then also thinner than the acceptable margin of error. Even on a really expensive well built trombone the mark is in the wrong spot and is a millimeter wide.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:45 pm ...

Bumper pads that are silent, not squishy, and don't compress even after 100 years of non-stop valve activation.
...

Sounds like you may want polyurethane. Lots of hardnesses available to get what you want it to feel like.

What's a "witness mark"?