TromboneChat

Greetings

Just wondering what your fave single rotor bass trombone is, and why?

PhillyG

M&W. 929 single valve traditional wrap. Because it PLAYS!!

I've only played one single rotor bass, which is a Reynolds Contempora with the copper bell. They're very affordable, and I like how the notes below the staff are more easily popped out than all of the independent horns I've played. It might not be as nice as a Shires or anything, but it's a lot more friendly to my wallet than even a YBL-421 would be. Plus it pulls to E, which is a nice touch.

Conn 71H

72H. I used a one as my main bass trombone for everything for a year, and then I bought another one with Yamaha independent valves. I still have the indy as my daily driver...would love to get another stock one.

Apart from the F rotor wrap, what's the difference btwn the Conn 71H and the 72H? Do they play differently?

I'm a Holton man. 169, E185, TR185. A good early or mid production TR185 will always have a special place in my heart.

PhillyG wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:01 pm Apart from the F rotor wrap, what's the difference btwn the Conn 71H and the 72H? Do they play differently?

I can't, unfortunately, speak to playability since i had to piece my 71H together and changed the rotors. The biggest difference is bell weight depending on when the 71H was made. I have an Elkhart 71H bell and had a texas made "Artist Symphony " bell and the Texas bell was heavier than the Elkhart and seemed twice as heavy as the 72H bells I've had.

In my experience so far with classic Conn trombones, the bells got heavier towards the end of the 60s. My 71H bell is a tad heavier than the '63 72H bell. My '68 8H bell is quite heavier than my '58 8H bell.

These are juat my observations of course.

I have a conn 70h and a 60h. I like them both but I use mostly the 70h. Fun to play. Don't have much experience with other single valves, but have a student on Yamaha single valve. 322 I think. It's surprising good, easy to play and solid sound.
Leif

Singles, by and large, are nicer than doubles....closer to a musical instrument, less of a mechanical necessity.... though my job (as far as I can remember it) means I spend most of my time on a double..... but I play a single as much as I can. It's partly about the lower weight ,partly about the reduction of bracing, partly just in my head. I've converted singles into doubles and doubles into singles and built slot- valves...I've always preferred the single valve incarnation, with one exception....I built a slot-in for a Conn 71H and preferred it with the extra valve.
I have a few singles....Conn 60H, Conn 70H , Conn 70H Fuchs, Holton 169, Reynolds Pre Contempora Bell, Rath R8.... which is my favourite? Whichever is on the stand at the moment..... they all play wonderfully.... if I could only keep one.... the Conn 60H is the most popular in British sections, and I rebuilt that one joint by joint and managed to turn a dog into a gem. I would pine for the others though.

I love single valves!

One of the best may be a Thein Universal with Hagmann valve. But I also love my Bach 50 wich I can play with one or two valves.

Then there where several 70h's I liked too...

So many choices.

Next in my list are 60h or Holton 169. If anyone wants to get rid of one.

72H! Great sound, light weight, capable of E pull, extra long slide makes for a solid low B.

The conn 70 series is hard to beat. I’ve played a 70 and a 71h and both solid horns. I’ve played a bach 50, beat to hell reynolds, some yamaha 3xx and 4xx series. The conn trumps all, i don’t know what magic they used at the elkhart factory but they turned out some nice single basses.

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:27 am Singles, by and large, are nicer than doubles....closer to a musical instrument, less of a mechanical necessity....

^^^this^^^

though my job (as far as I can remember it) means I spend most of my time on a double.....

^^^also this^^^

I have a pre-WWII Conn 70H that is amazing. I use it in sections with alto mostly.

I also have a mid-60s Bach 50B with a single Rotax valve on it that plays and sounds absolutely great. These days I keep it on a stand in my living room/practice room and often warm up on it. The way my Shires double is set up, they have very similar response, so it's very easy to go back and forth between them.

I know it’s more of a large tenor than a bass, but there’s a special place in my heart for an early 5B silversonic. Nice fat sound, perfect for 3rd parts or for a doubler.

Amconk wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:45 am I know it’s more of a large tenor than a bass, but there’s a special place in my heart for an early 5B silversonic. Nice fat sound, perfect for 3rd parts or for a doubler.

You know, in most cases, that's exactly what you need - a big tenor. The actual difference between a big tenor with a big mouthpiece and a single valve bass is, to me, anyway, not worth owning an extra horn for. I recently played my tbone quartet 4th/bass book on my 88h with a 1 1/4G sized mouthpiece, and it totally works. I use the E pull for tunes with low C/B (yes, the 88h can reach a low B with the E pull).

I'm not sure if the 5B is set up with a slide that will do that or not, or even if it has a true E pull. If you put a Benge 190 type wrap on the 5b, it would probably work.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:31 am

Amconk wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:45 am I know it’s more of a large tenor than a bass, but there’s a special place in my heart for an early 5B silversonic. Nice fat sound, perfect for 3rd parts or for a doubler.

You know, in most cases, that's exactly what you need - a big tenor. The actual difference between a big tenor with a big mouthpiece and a single valve bass is, to me, anyway, not worth owning an extra horn for. I recently played my tbone quartet 4th/bass book on my 88h with a 1 1/4G sized mouthpiece, and it totally works. I use the E pull for tunes with low C/B (yes, the 88h can reach a low B with the E pull).

I'm not sure if the 5B is set up with a slide that will do that or not, or even if it has a true E pull. If you put a Benge 190 type wrap on the 5b, it would probably work.

It's not what I need most of the time .... The singles we have been talking about are full size bass trombones...I really cannot understand why it seems a common (mis) understanding that single basses are smaller than double valve basses....some might be but Holton singles, Bach singles and Conn 60H singles are the same as their double equivalents...boutique singles can be full size.
The number of valves is not connected to the size of bore or bell.

Chris

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:02 pm
It's not what I need most of the time .... The singles we have been talking about are full size bass trombones...I really cannot understand why it seems a common (mis) understanding that single basses are smaller than double valve basses....some might be but Holton singles, Bach singles and Conn 60H singles are the same as their double equivalents...boutique singles can be full size.
The number of valves is not connected to the size of bore or bell.

Chris

Yeah, I get that. You're a full time bass player in a pro orchestra, you have to be (or get to be) more discriminating in your tools. For the tenor players among us who don't play in a pro orchestra, which I'd guess is most of us, we can often make due with something less than a full size bass, be it single or double. A 5B is a definite tweener, though. I never suggest that a single bass is smaller than a double in any dimension other than weight. But a valve tenor is smaller in bore and weight and sound. For some of us in some situations a big tenor might be fine for playing orchestral 3rd parts or big band 4th parts (or in my case quartet 4th parts).

Most of the bass parts I have to cover can be played nicely on a tenor (if you're careful). Sometimes, though, due to Cs or Bs or maneuverability in the low register, it just makes sense to play a bass. Due to those requirements, a single bass doesn't get me anywhere a single tenor can't take me (outside the sound differences). So, if I have to play a bass trombone, I'm gonna play a double. In general I, like you, prefer a single over a double, but even more I prefer a tenor over a single.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:31 am ...

I'm not sure if the 5B is set up with a slide that will do that or not, or even if it has a true E pull. If you put a Benge 190 type wrap on the 5b, it would probably work.

The later 5B (1970s onward) has the two tuning slides on the attachment. The short slide on the small loop is intended for tuning while the large slide on the longer loop is actually marked for an E pull. Same goes for the 4B, which has the same wrap.

Older Symphony trombones (1480) have only a single tuning slide in the attachment, but I believe it's close to long enough for E.

YBL421G with Edwards slide shires 2 lead pipe

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:32 pm

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:02 pm
It's not what I need most of the time .... The singles we have been talking about are full size bass trombones...I really cannot understand why it seems a common (mis) understanding that single basses are smaller than double valve basses....some might be but Holton singles, Bach singles and Conn 60H singles are the same as their double equivalents...boutique singles can be full size.
The number of valves is not connected to the size of bore or bell.

Chris

Yeah, I get that. You're a full time bass player in a pro orchestra, you have to be (or get to be) more discriminating in your tools. For the tenor players among us who don't play in a pro orchestra, which I'd guess is most of us, we can often make due with something less than a full size bass, be it single or double. A 5B is a definite tweener, though. I never suggest that a single bass is smaller than a double in any dimension other than weight. But a valve tenor is smaller in bore and weight and sound. For some of us in some situations a big tenor might be fine for playing orchestral 3rd parts or big band 4th parts (or in my case quartet 4th parts).

Most of the bass parts I have to cover can be played nicely on a tenor (if you're careful). Sometimes, though, due to Cs or Bs or maneuverability in the low register, it just makes sense to play a bass. Due to those requirements, a single bass doesn't get me anywhere a single tenor can't take me (outside the sound differences). So, if I have to play a bass trombone, I'm gonna play a double. In general I, like you, prefer a single over a double, but even more I prefer a tenor over a single.

I didn't mean to make that post to sound so personal....sorry Hypo, I didn't wish to offend....it's the growing view that singles are smaller by trombone players that bugs me, not the sensible use of smaller instruments in situations where they are more appropriate. I use smaller instruments when appropriate myself and feel that is an essential part of modern musical interpretation.

Chris

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:32 pm I didn't mean to make that post to sound so personal....sorry Hypo, I didn't wish to offend....it's the growing view that singles are smaller by trombone players that bugs me, not the sensible use of smaller instruments in situations where they are more appropriate. I use smaller instruments when appropriate myself and feel that is an essential part of modern musical interpretation.

Chris

Yes I've thought about that too. Even one of my friends here who is a real good bass trombone player said when he tried a single that he did not like those small bass trombones. He thought they felt small.

I think it is the Thayers if you have those on your doubles that confuse things. I can feel a big difference in resistance on a Thayer compared to ordinary valves. It is much less resistance on Thayers.
Then there is the dual bore slides on some horns that adds to that. In that case they are in fact larger, but you could put a doul bore slide on a single too.

I like singles and I like the resistance of ordinary valves.

My favourite singles? Conn 70h is great and so is 71h and 72h and Holton 169, 185, 183 and of course the Bachs, 45B and 50B and don't forget the yamaha student horns 321 and 322. I could go on and on. There are to many good single basstrombones.

/Tom

Single-valve bass trombones are invariably 0.562" bore (or 0.563" for Yamaha) – as are most double-valve bass trombones. [Some are now dual-bore 0.562" / 0.578"] So from the bore standpoint, all basses are pretty much the same size.

But double-valve basses are much heavier than singles. I am used to my Conn 71H single-valve bass. Yesterday, I picked up a friend's Bach50BL (with a 10½" diameter bell flare!), and was astonished at its mass – that's one heavy trombone. Not a good choice for an old guy like me who already has pain in his left shoulder. I can make nice loud sounds (and delicate tones too!) on my 71H; I'll stick with a single valve.

To piggy back on Chris' comment...

Just because an instrument only has one valve does not make it any "lighter". The Conn 71 and 72 (and most 70's) "are" lighter/smaller because the bell flare and tuning slide are considerably smaller in profile. A 72H tuning slide crook will actually fit INSIDE a Bach 50 crook!! So comparing a Conn 72 to a Bach 50 isn't apples/apples.

Assuming the same handslide/tuning slide crook and bell are used, a single valve horn "sounds" no smaller than the the same combination with 2 valves of the same type. It "feels" smaller simply because it is lighter in weight.

I won't get started in using lighter gear for the appropriate repertoire...

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:12 pm A 72H tuning slide crook will actually fit INSIDE a Bach 50 crook!!

I knew they were smaller but I didn't know they were THAT much smaller!

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:12 pm Assuming the same handslide/tuning slide crook and bell are used, a single valve horn "sounds" no smaller than the the same combination with 2 valves of the same type. It "feels" smaller simply because it is lighter in weight.

I've tested this between a stock 72H and one with independent Yamaha rotors (both of which I owned at the time). Same 72H slide and mouthpiece, just swapping the bell sections. I played the two horns back to back on the same chart with a big band in a big hall, and the trombone players in the audience told me the sound was night and day. Both still classic Conn, but the indy was much beefier.

It might be because the single feels so much more agile because of the lighter weight that I subconsciously played it with a different approach, or just that they were 2 different Elkhart bells with presumably different characteristics, but there was definitely a noticeable difference in how the two bell sections sounded.

And anybody who thinks single valve basses have to sound smaller than doubles should listen to some recordings of Micha Davis in the Israel Philharmonic. And Ray Premru in the Philharmonia for that matter. And Frank Mathison in the LSO. And any recordings of Ed Kleinhammer in Chicago from before around 1970-something. The list goes on and on...

But Micha is playing a traditional wrap single Bach 50 currently. Listen to the 4th movement of their Mahler 6 recording in particular.

In fact:



If you're impatient, go to 16:21

I must stop visiting this site!!!
I am sitting in my man-cave/study with my 8 trombones arranged neatly on their stands, trying to work out how to fund another bass trombone and, more difficult, how to convince my better half that it is an essential part of my tool kit!
As you can see from the list below, I have a perfectly acceptable large independent bass trombone which I can use in an orchestral setting or a big band line up with just a change of mouthpiece. I also have a Besson "Academy 409" single trigger, small bass (not a large tenor!) which I use for earlier repertoire, when the line up is alto, tenor, bass. I sometimes use it in rehearsals just because it is lighter and I'm at an age where that is important.
But do I need a large bore single valve bass trombone?
No!
But would I like one?
Yes!
Another problem is that I would like to get my hands on an Olds "Super". Oh, and a bass trumpet and a Contra (perhaps I am too old for the Contra!)

I wonder how much I can get for a well used kidney?

Cheers

Stewbones

PS Love the link above from Gabe. Wow, awesome.

I`m really happy with my Yamaha 321.

In response to Finetales. I also conducted a similar experiment, however I used the same bell, tuning slide and handslide, so the only difference was the valve section. (There were also different valve types involved as well, but that is for another thread)

In a blind play off (the audience had their backs to me) they couldn't tell the difference. When they could see what I was playing, they then apparently "heard" a difference.

I have spent a fair amount of time on two basses. The first was a Bach 50B3 with dependent valves and the other was a Conn 72H. As others have suggested, they were very different beasts and I'd pick the 72H any day. With a good mouthpiece it is a very flexible and capable horn. If I found one I'd consider swapping a Rotax valve for the best of both worlds.

With that in mind, I also be thinking seriously about the YBL-321 that dukesboneman likes if I were to get a bass today. The YBL-321 is readily available, reasonably prices, and it is a Yamaha (some love and others hate this fact).

dukesboneman wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:24 am I`m really happy with my Yamaha 321.

Trav1s wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:55 am I have spent a fair amount of time on two basses. The first was a Bach 50B3 with dependent valves and the other was a Conn 72H. As others have suggested, they were very different beasts and I'd pick the 72H any day. With a good mouthpiece it is a very flexible and capable horn. If I found one I'd consider swapping a Rotax valve for the best of both worlds.

With that in mind, I also be thinking seriously about the YBL-321 that dukesboneman likes if I were to get a bass today. The YBL-321 is readily available, reasonably prices, and it is a Yamaha (some love and others hate this fact).

dukesboneman wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:24 am I`m really happy with my Yamaha 321.

Which mouthpiece do you use with the 72H? Always curious what others use. I'm using a Denis Wick Heritage Edition 0AL.

bigbandbone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:10 pm

Trav1s wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:55 am I have spent a fair amount of time on two basses. The first was a Bach 50B3 with dependent valves and the other was a Conn 72H. As others have suggested, they were very different beasts and I'd pick the 72H any day. With a good mouthpiece it is a very flexible and capable horn. If I found one I'd consider swapping a Rotax valve for the best of both worlds.

With that in mind, I also be thinking seriously about the YBL-321 that dukesboneman likes if I were to get a bass today. The YBL-321 is readily available, reasonably prices, and it is a Yamaha (some love and others hate this fact).

Which mouthpiece do you use with the 72H? Always curious what others use. I'm using a Denis Wick Heritage Edition 0AL.

I used a Bach 1.5G and a Schilke 51B with the 72H. I'd like to try a 2G or something in that range with a horn that size.

Way back when, at M&W, we would occasionally test single valved instruments against an identical instrument except with double valves. (same hand-slide) The single valve instrument's sound was always much bigger and richer than the double.

MDM

Inspector71 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:54 pm Way back when, at M&W, we would occasionally test single valved instruments against an identical instrument except with double valves. (same hand-slide) The single valve instrument's sound was always much bigger and richer than the double.

MDM

Just want to note a similar experience... I have on many occasions played the same instrument with different valve sections; single, dependent, and independent. A couple of different makes, mostly Edwards, several Bachs, and some other Franken horns.

On every single occasion I have preferred the single, followed by dependent, then the independent. How significant is the difference? I don't know, very small. Probably small enough that double blind I might not be able to tell the difference playing. Could probably on average pick it out, but not necessarily for individual passages. Listening? I am sure that blind I could not pick them out. Not at my skill level.

I have three single basses downstairs. Only one of them has a modular valve section. I really need to build drop in valves for two of them so that I can use them more often.

Cheers,
Andy

FWIW my Bach 50 which is convertible from independent double to a single valve section also seems to play bigger to me. But I'm wondering how much if it has to do with more Feedback to the player vs sound for the audience.

I suspect the lesser weight gives much more feedback.

I know this a dead chat, but how y’all feel about the 70h series for orchestral use?

In the right setting with the right section, sure. I wouldn't use one every day, personally.

BassBoneWaluigi wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 10:35 am I know this a dead chat, but how y’all feel about the 70h series for orchestral use?

Why not?
Perfectly suitable for most orchestral repertoire, and great sound with the right mouthpiece (and a good trombonist).

I'd be happy to play my Conn 71H with an orchestra (but I'm currently playing tenor).

BassBoneWaluigi wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 10:35 am I know this a dead chat, but how y’all feel about the 70h series for orchestral use?

It's a favourite of mine as well as the Holton 169, Conn 72h & 71H. There are a lot good old singles.

/Tom

I had one for a few years. I used it every time I needed a bass but not a double. Nice horns if you get one in good shape.

BassBoneWaluigi wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 10:35 am I know this a dead chat, but how y’all feel about the 70h series for orchestral use?

As I wrote above, I own a great 70H. I would not use it in a large orchestra. Why? My colleagues play modern tenors and big tubas, and the dynamic profile is just too different.

I do use it in sections with alto trombone, especially when playing with a chorus. Tomorrow I'm doing my third Mozart Requiem this spring, and I will almost certainly use it.

I usually play it on Beethoven 9. I don't usually play it on Beethoven 5, because that's more of a bass line part; in some orchestras with the other trombones playing smaller instruments, I might though.

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 4:16 pm

BassBoneWaluigi wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 10:35 am I know this a dead chat, but how y’all feel about the 70h series for orchestral use?

As I wrote above, I own a great 70H. I would not use it in a large orchestra. Why? My colleagues play modern tenors and big tubas, and the dynamic profile is just too different.

Good point Gabe. Everything is "bigger" these days. I'm an old-timer. My current two orchestras are relatively small, and perform in rather compact halls, so I would be O.K. playing my 71H with my colleagues - we all use relatively modest-size trombones.

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 4:16 pm

BassBoneWaluigi wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 10:35 am I know this a dead chat, but how y’all feel about the 70h series for orchestral use?

As I wrote above, I own a great 70H. I would not use it in a large orchestra. Why? My colleagues play modern tenors and big tubas, and the dynamic profile is just too different.

The style is different in the UK. Keith McNicholl uses 7x horns with the Royal Opera and it sounds pretty good to me.

Big fan of single triggers here. I've been lucky enough to pick up a pre-war 70H that I know was used in the Royal Philharmonic for repertoire like Brahms. There's something about this horn that I keep coming back to.

One horn I'd really like to try is the King 2B SS Bass, which is a dual-bore with a 9" bell. I'm still kicking myself for missing not one but two that sold in the UK recently.

Oh, and the other single trigger bass is the Besson "Betty" G Bass. A bit of a pig to play but a unique sound.

I like the sound I get from my Bach 50B, and the reduced weight compared to a double is a big plus, especially for marching work. However, I could probably play a percussion part on the rotor, that thing is LOUD.

I too play a Conn 71h and love the reduced weight. It is so free blowing and is perfect for the scenarios I get to play in (church gigs, community orchestra). Definitely will be hanging on to it for a long time.

I just got a 72H bell section for the sole purpose of bringing it to gigs where i don't need a second valve.

I guess that we amateurs and semi-pros have different needs and priorities than full-time orchestral pros like Gabe Rice!

Posaunus wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2023 7:25 pm I guess that we amateurs and semi-pros have different needs and priorities than full-time orchestral pros like Gabe Rice!

In short, yes. I think this would hold true of any non-professional situation, musical or otherwise.

If you're playing in a professional orchestral section where the 1st tenor player models their sound after, say, a late 90's Joe Alessi, then this will dictate a certain breadth of sound and dynamic curve from the bass trombone chair, of which some equipment is less suited.

Tuba player is a dedicated 6/4 player? Similar.

But if that tuba player is a little more compact, playing more modest size equipment? Then maybe your large, wide sound actually gets in the way and competes with the tuba's 'airspace'.

If you win an orchestral job, you can take the time to craft your sound, tweak some equipment choices, and find the best balance to make you and your colleagues sound optimal in the space you perform in.

And the above examples are why freelance players usually play equipment that is described as 'middle of the road'. Goldilocks. Works everywhere with everyone.

But if you're an amateur? Pick an instrument that brings you joy, that makes you want to pick it up after a long day at work. An instrument that is easy to play, has a sound that thrills you, even one you can brag about to your mates at the break.

Andrew

TheBoneRanger wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 4:49 pm But if you're an amateur? Pick an instrument that brings you joy, that makes you want to pick it up after a long day at work. An instrument that is easy to play, has a sound that thrills you, even one you can brag about to your mates at the break.

This