Elkhart 80H

MrZipper · Post by **MrZipper** » Sat Sep 05, 2020 3:48 pm

Hi all, I’m looking for info on a horn I recently bought. It was sold to me as an 88H, but when I received it this week, I realized That it’s not. It looks identical in terms of color and wrap to my 88H, but it’s a small shank (not sure exactly what size bore) and a smaller bell. Elkhart is stamped on the bell. Serial number on the slide places it sometime in late 1949.

:edit: One thing I forgot to mention is that there is no slide locking mechanism. Not like it was broken off, but it doesn’t look like it ever had one.

Thanks,
Zip

Finetales · Post by **Finetales** » Sat Sep 05, 2020 3:51 pm

Is it stamped 80H? That description sounds like a 79H to me, and both 80Hs on the Conn Loyalist don't look like an 88H. But I don't know how far back the 79H was made and I would imagine it's not as far back as '49.

MrZipper · Post by **MrZipper** » Sat Sep 05, 2020 3:59 pm

Thanks for your reply.

It’s stamped 80H on the receiver. I’ll post some pics.

MrZipper · Post by **MrZipper** » Sat Sep 05, 2020 4:04 pm

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... X3VPuX7HuV

Finetales · Post by **Finetales** » Sat Sep 05, 2020 4:07 pm

Wow! That's cool. The only other mention of an 80H on the forum that I can find is one from 1979 that is a 78H with a red brass bell. Perhaps it's one of those with a special-ordered valve? I'm sure someone else more knowledgeable than me can chime in with a definitive answer.

MrZipper · Post by **MrZipper** » Sat Sep 05, 2020 4:10 pm

Hopefully! But thanks for taking the time to reply, all the same! I just gave it a bath, so I’ll just have to give it a whirl and see how it sounds.

HawaiiTromboneGuy · Post by **HawaiiTromboneGuy** » Sat Sep 05, 2020 4:24 pm

Interesting horn. The 80H of the ‘20s had a flat wrap design. What bore size does it have?

JLivi · Post by **JLivi** » Sat Sep 05, 2020 4:28 pm

What's the bell size?

I'm so intrigued by this horn. And if you hate it, I might be interested in the bell, if it fits a medium bore slide

Finetales · Post by **Finetales** » Sat Sep 05, 2020 4:31 pm

JLivi wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 4:28 pm What's the bell size?

I'm so intrigued by this horn. And if you hate it, I might be interested in the bell, if it fits a medium bore slide

Cut up what is presumably an extraordinarily rare horn in great shape like this? Please don't...

JLivi · Post by **JLivi** » Sat Sep 05, 2020 4:45 pm

Finetales wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 4:31 pm Cut up what is presumably an extraordinarily rare horn in great shape like this? Please don't...

I'm not trying to!

MrZipper · Post by **MrZipper** » Sat Sep 05, 2020 4:51 pm

I’m honestly not sure where to measure for bore size. I’d assume the stockings?

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Sat Sep 05, 2020 5:10 pm

That bell engraving is 50s, 60-61 latest. Is the slide wider than an 88h? Are the cork barrels different lengths? How about the oversleeves? The loyalist site says these were TIS.

paulyg · Post by **paulyg** » Sat Sep 05, 2020 5:15 pm

That bell has a soldered rim.

MrZipper · Post by **MrZipper** » Sat Sep 05, 2020 5:20 pm

The slide is the same width as my ‘68 88H, but it is roughly 1/2” longer than my 88H. Without the outer slide, from end of stocking to tenon, the 88H is slightly longer. The 80H also has springs where my 88H has corks. I added three new pics to my drive folder showing them side-by-side. The one with the black plastic grip is the 88.

paulyg · Post by **paulyg** » Sat Sep 05, 2020 5:48 pm

I think this is what Finetales said- the 80H was a special-order version of the 78H/79H with a red brass bell. That would explain the small shank receiver, the soldered bell, and the smaller bell diameter. I'm not sure why Conn would make the slide on this horn longer, but it could be to allow the horn to be put in "long" position tuning for a first position vibrato. With the tuning slide all the way in, Bb should be about an inch off the bumper.

MrZipper · Post by **MrZipper** » Sat Sep 05, 2020 6:15 pm

I should add that the S/N is a 388*** which places it at 1949.

I see a 79H on Brass Exchange. This looks identical, except the bell is rose brass instead of yellow. I am guessing it is a .522, but I’m not sure how to measure it. It just looks smaller diameter than my 88H, and bigger than my 3B.

Fairlane57 · Post by **Fairlane57** » Sat Sep 05, 2020 6:22 pm

I have a 78H with the F attachment. I play first position out and other positions look short to the bell. The horn was designed to cover a range of parts. With the longer slide it is easier to get a good low C below the staff.

Thanks, Bob

Thrawn22 · Post by **Thrawn22** » Sat Sep 05, 2020 7:08 pm

My 78H slide is a tad longer than my 8H slides and it was made in 53' a special order horn could be the answer.

Trav1s · Post by **Trav1s** » Sat Sep 05, 2020 7:20 pm

My 80h is from 1972 and looks to be a transitional horn. It came from Texas. 8” red brass bell and the slide is almost identical to my ‘67 78h.

I also have a ‘69 79h that looks similar to the horn in the pics.

JLivi · Post by **JLivi** » Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:49 pm

Is it an 8” bell?

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:50 pm

The slide on 78/79h has longer cork barrel on the bottom than on the top. Also, the left hand brace for the 79h is about 1/2" further down the slide than the 78h because of the trigger position. The trigger also makes the main bell brace move further back on the 79. Not sure how they dealt with the braces on the 78h specials with trigger.

Your 80h slide doesn't look like a 78/9h because it doesn't seem wide enough and the cork barrels and oversleeves don't seem to match. I think the default 80h of that era was supposed to be TIS, so it's hard to say what it really is exactly. There may have been some factory or post-factory modifications in there somewhere.

Kdanielsen · Post by **Kdanielsen** » Sun Sep 06, 2020 7:00 am

Neat!

I’ve got a bell section identical to this one:

https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/Conn80H1933image.html

Looks nothing like yours. Mine really needs restoration and is missing its slide. I tried it with an old 78h slide and it was magical. I’m trying to decide if I should find an old slide like that that fits or get the slide receiver modified to fit my edwards 525 slide.

LeoInFL · Post by **LeoInFL** » Sun Sep 06, 2020 7:40 am

Here's a pic of the 1923 80H that I used to own. Silver-plated, 8" bell, thumb strap pull on the valve, 0.522", TIS, Eb extension for the attachment. Played okay but not as well as a modern horn so I sold it.

Trav1s · Post by **Trav1s** » Sun Sep 06, 2020 12:46 pm

JLivi wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:49 pm Is it an 8” bell?

8” red brass bell but heavier than the bell on the 79h and the 78h.

MrZipper · Post by **MrZipper** » Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:00 pm

What do you suppose the horn is worth? There are some scratches on both stockings. The slide isn’t terrible, but it’s a little scratchy and starts to hang up in 6th-7th position. I’m going to clean it a few more times. I‘m still removing tarnish every time I clean it. I may try some wright’s on it this week if it’s still scratchy. I’ve only used slide-o-mix on it so far. I’m going to try trombotine this week and see what that’s like, I think it works better than slide-o on my older 3B.

The valve works, I’m sure it could use being taken apart and cleaned. I’m hesitant to shell out to have that done, when I’m not sure I’m going to keep it. The action feels much like an 88H. Short throw.

I do like the sound of it, but being realistic I’m not sure if I would really use it once the “newness” fades. I’m no pro so I have limited time to practice, and I already have an Elkhart 88H and a 3B that I love.

Also, someone asked about the bell size. It’s 8”.

Posaunus · Post by **Posaunus** » Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:26 pm

I'd guess the slide needs alignment; probably the valve should also be serviced by a good tech. Cleaning and lubing can only take you so far. Expect to drop ~$100-$200.

You could do this, and still not prefer the horn to your 88H, or allow a buyer to factor the needed tech work into purchase price.

Trav1s · Post by **Trav1s** » Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:05 pm

I'd be interested if it goes up for sale. I have a .522" Conn problem...

Finetales · Post by **Finetales** » Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:30 pm

Oh NO, don't put it up for sale. I might not be able to resist.

Posaunus · Post by **Posaunus** » Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:23 pm

Trav1s wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:05 pm I'd be interested if it goes up for sale. I have a .522" Conn problem...

That's not a "problem" - it's an addiction!

Elow · Post by **Elow** » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:29 pm

Brass ark posted on their story about an 80H. Can probably find it on their website

Hobart · Post by **Hobart** » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:41 pm

Elow wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:29 pm Brass ark posted on their story about an 80H. Can probably find it on their website

No offense, but I don't think that's quite the one, Conn re-used model numbers a lot and that wrap is different from the 88H.

Post by **BGuttman** » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:00 pm

Hobart wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:41 pm
Elow wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:29 pm Brass ark posted on their story about an 80H. Can probably find it on their website
No offense, but I don't think that's quite the one, Conn re-used model numbers a lot and that wrap is different from the 88H.

Not an 88H. An 80H. This is in the family of 78H, 79H, and 80H.

Elow · Post by **Elow** » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:33 pm

Hobart wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:41 pm
Elow wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:29 pm Brass ark posted on their story about an 80H. Can probably find it on their website
No offense, but I don't think that's quite the one, Conn re-used model numbers a lot and that wrap is different from the 88H.

None taken. This is a thread for an 80H so i thought i would put it here

Hobart · Post by **Hobart** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:39 am

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:00 pm
Hobart wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:41 pm

No offense, but I don't think that's quite the one, Conn re-used model numbers a lot and that wrap is different from the 88H.
Not an 88H. An 80H. This is in the family of 78H, 79H, and 80H.

I mean, yeah, but the original poster did say that "the wrap is identical to an 88H" on his particular 80H, I figured I'd mention that the brassark one was likely a different model than the example being discussed.

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:58 am

I think this is another one similar to what Elow is talking about. It's under the sold items list.
Sounds like a prime player for a 100 year old horn. Sold for a pretty penny too, comparatively to any 78 or 79h I've seen.

And then in his museum, he has an 82h, which is if anything even more drool worthy. mmmm.....

MrZipper · Post by **MrZipper** » Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:12 am

Correct, its wrap is different to the 80H that Elow posted. It’s identical to an 88H wrap, and the valve action on the string is super short like my 88H. I’m guessing that the 80H BrassArk has was a predecessor to this, which in turn was the predecessor to the 88H. That’s my guess due to the date the serial numbers put these horns at. I’ve been enjoying the hell out of it, but I’m probably going to sell it eventually because I promised my wife I wouldn’t start hoarding trombones. I’m just going to wait until she makes it an issue.

slipmo · Post by **slipmo** » Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:45 pm

Hey all, I have two Conn 80Hs in my collection... the one posted above on my IG story is a 1939/1940 80H SPEC with bell tuning that was build custom for Simone Mantia of the Sousa Band and Met Opera. A flat wrap from Conn built this late, and a bell tuning version of a TIS model as well is very unusual. I also have a 1920s 80H in my collection with TIS, same specs but with tuning in the slide.

slipmo · Post by **slipmo** » Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:13 pm

Here are some better photos of the Conn 80H Spec for Simone Mantia. Enjoy!

HawaiiTromboneGuy · Post by **HawaiiTromboneGuy** » Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:57 pm

Reviving this thread as I just received my 80H that was for sale at Dillon’s. Serial number dates it to 1922. This one is a bit unusual as it has a 7.5” red brass bell and a euro/medium shank receiver. The description from Dillon’s didn’t mention it being a medium shank, however I do plan on purchasing one so that I’ll be able to play the horn properly. Enjoy these quick snaps.

HawaiiTromboneGuy · Post by **HawaiiTromboneGuy** » Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:59 pm

More photos.

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Wed Aug 18, 2021 6:40 am

Yeah, that's a nice horn. Is it playable or just a collector piece?

HawaiiTromboneGuy · Post by **HawaiiTromboneGuy** » Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:00 am

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 6:40 am Yeah, that's a nice horn. Is it playable or just a collector piece?

It’s definitely playable. Just wish I had a proper mouthpiece to go with it.

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:16 am

HawaiiTromboneGuy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:00 am
hyperbolica wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 6:40 am Yeah, that's a nice horn. Is it playable or just a collector piece?
It’s definitely playable. Just wish I had a proper mouthpiece to go with it.

My 79h requires a slightly smaller shank, so I got a correct one from Doug E. It does play a little more solid with the correct shank. A regular small shank works, but is slightly too large. and it sticks out noticeably further than it should.

A 79h with TIS has always been in the back of my mind, and that looks to be it. Very nice. As usual, you've made me jealous again.

HawaiiTromboneGuy · Post by **HawaiiTromboneGuy** » Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:58 am

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:16 am
HawaiiTromboneGuy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:00 am

It’s definitely playable. Just wish I had a proper mouthpiece to go with it.
My 79h requires a slightly smaller shank, so I got a correct one from Doug E. It does play a little more solid with the correct shank. A regular small shank works, but is slightly too large. and it sticks out noticeably further than it should.

A 79h with TIS has always been in the back of my mind, and that looks to be it. Very nice. As usual, you've made me jealous again.

I was definitely surprised when I opened the horn up and realized that the receiver looked larger than a small shank receiver, but not quite as big as a large shank receiver. I do plan on contacting Doug to see if he has something similar to the specs of a Laskey 48C as that’s my go to small shank piece. Hopefully he has something close that he can put together for me with a medium shank.

I was looking for an 80H awhile ago, but didn’t get any leads on my WTB post here. The specs seemed like something I would like as I don’t really play large tenor too often. Figured it’d be nice to have something similar in size to the Williams 9.