Leningrad Phil section circa 1960

[biggiesmalls]

Years ago on TTF I posted these grainy images of the principal and bass trombonists of the Leningrad Philharmonic, taken from the full orchestra image in the LP liner notes of the Deutche Grammophon recordings, made at their London studios in 1960 while Mravinsky and the orchestra were on tour. I had an image of the second, which I can't find right now, but as I recall, the horn was obscured in such a way that it was unidentifiable.

At any rate, if anyone feels like speculating about the possible makers of these horns based on the limited clues to be found in these images, I'd love to hear your take. I remember the consensus from TTF thread, but here I thought it would be fun to start fresh with no preconceptions.

I've always admired the unique sound of this section, on full display at the 1:37.38 and 2:06.18 marks in this recording:



As NPR reviewer Ted Libbey said, "...distinctive are the wind and brass timbres; those who heard the Leningrad Philharmonic in performance under Mravinsky say that no other ensemble sounded remotely like it in pianissimo or fortissimo."

[BGuttman]

From the shape of the braces on the bass trombone I suspect it's a Reynolds.

Principal looks like he's holding a German instrument. Could be from the Soviet-controlled area of Markneukirchen.

[tombone21]

Very cool! Really enjoying the strings and horns especially in these recordings. If I may take a stab at it: maybe the first picture is a Glassl? Would this be before Glassl's time? The bass could be a Conn, or maybe an Olds with F attachment? Maybe it's just the lighting but it looks like the main tuning slide is reversed and the tuning slide brace may have a bit of a taper to it. Also wouldn't be surprised if they played instruments from a more local maker that we haven't heard much about.

[hornbuilder]

these photos pre-date Herr Glassl's production

[DougHulme]

Having worked in Russia for 10 years soon after the borders came down, I very much doubt they were anything other than Russian or at least Soviet made. It was nigh impossible to get anything into the country that wasnt made there. I suspect it would have been very difficult to smuggle a western horn in even if you had just done a tour of the UK or USA. After 50 or 60 years of even your best friend or parents informing the party of anything you did that might remotely be unpatriotic or not in the parties best interest - no one took a chance on anything. Besides the entire nation at that time believed that everything Soviet was vastly superior to anything Western - no questions asked... Doug

[LeTromboniste]

First looks Germanic design, but most certainly built in Eastern Europe. Lots of Czech-made instruments at that time. The Soviet military trombones I've seen are all German style but often with much thicker brass (so they sound quite different), and cruder craftsmanship.

[FOSSIL]

Having worked in Russia for 10 years soon after the borders came down, I very much doubt they were anything other than Russian or at least Soviet made. It was nigh impossible to get anything into the country that wasnt made there. I suspect it would have been very difficult to smuggle a western horn in even if you had just done a tour of the UK or USA. After 50 or 60 years of even your best friend or parents informing the party of anything you did that might remotely be unpatriotic or not in the parties best interest - no one took a chance on anything. Besides the entire nation at that time believed that everything Soviet was vastly superior to anything Western - no questions asked... Doug

Actually Doug,
Having been friends with the present section for more than 20 years, I know that things were quite different regarding instruments. After WW2 the government of the USSR purchased instruments for their major orchestras. When I first saw the orchestra the bass trombonist was playing a Bach 50 B from the Mount Vernon era. My friend who took over that position had a NY Bach 50B the shop card for which states.. purchased by the government of the USSR in 1945. The players did not own the instruments, they came with the job. The present day players were using Edwards the last time I saw them....a set donated to the orchestra.
I remember back in the late 1970s the USSR symphony tenor players were using medium bore Holton Bb/F tenors with 11c mouthpieces....and very good they sounded !
Chris

[biggiesmalls]

Thanks for the insights Chris, I recall your contributions to the old thread on TTF and appreciate you taking time to reiterate and expand on them here. Wow, medium bore Holtons and 11C's! How times (and sound concepts) have changed.

[BGuttman]

Thanks for the insights Chris, I recall your contributions to the old thread on TTF and appreciate you taking time to reiterate and expand on them here. Wow, medium bore Holtons and 11C's! How times (and sound concepts) have changed.

Jacob Raichman, who was Principal of the Boston Symphony Orchestra in the 1930s and 1940s played a Bach 36. Times change indeed.

[DougHulme]

Hi Chris
I bow to superior knowledge. I never took into account the government actually buying them should have thought of that. What was totally amazing about the orchestras when we were there was the standard. You could go into any town in Russia and just as you were starting to think you were living in a thrid world country you would go into a concert hall and there you could listen to an orchestra you didnt even knew existed and it would have given any top English orchestra a run for its money - amazing. same with sport you would amble into what looked like an old run down sports hall and inside was the most sophisticated basket ball court or whatever. A land of contrasts - I feel like we never found a toilet that was fully functional in all our times there and yet they had men in space! I did wander into a few music shops while I was tehre and their trombones were dreadful, very thick guage brass almost always bare brass no lacquer and the slides were really hard. but - cheap as chips to a man on a salary from teh West.

I do know times have changed!

Doug

[FOSSIL]

Thanks for the insights Chris, I recall your contributions to the old thread on TTF and appreciate you taking time to reiterate and expand on them here. Wow, medium bore Holtons and 11C's! How times (and sound concepts) have changed.

Jacob Raichman, who was Principal of the Boston Symphony Orchestra in the 1930s and 1940s played a Bach 36. Times change indeed.

When Lance green was principal trombone of the RSNO just a few years ago, he often played a Bach 36.

Chris

[elmsandr]

...
Actually Doug,
Having been friends with the present section for more than 20 years, I know that things were quite different regarding instruments. After WW2 the government of the USSR purchased instruments for their major orchestras. When I first saw the orchestra the bass trombonist was playing a Bach 50 B from the Mount Vernon era. My friend who took over that position had a NY Bach 50B the shop card for which states.. purchased by the government of the USSR in 1945. The players did not own the instruments, they came with the job. The present day players were using Edwards the last time I saw them....a set donated to the orchestra.
I remember back in the late 1970s the USSR symphony tenor players were using medium bore Holton Bb/F tenors with 11c mouthpieces....and very good they sounded !
Chris

Just a note, but probably heresay as I cannot find the source material at this time, I remember that when somebody did some digging through the shop cards roughly half of the first batch or two of Bach 50s were sent to Russia. Something like up to a dozen basses, but again I cannot find the source documentation or remember who did the digging through the shop cards. I do remember that this was why I had bookmarked some Russian auction sites for a while hoping to get lucky.

Cheers,
Andy

[DougHulme]

Hi Chris
I bow to superior knowledge. I never took into account the government actually buying them should have thought of that. What was totally amazing about the orchestras when we were there was the standard. You could go into any town in Russia and just as you were starting to think you were living in a thrid world country you would go into a concert hall and there you could listen to an orchestra you didnt even knew existed and it would have given any top English orchestra a run for its money - amazing. Same with sport you would amble into what looked like an old run down sports hall and inside was the most sophisticated basket ball court or whatever. A land of contrasts - I feel like we never found a toilet that was fully functional in all our times there and yet they had men in space! I did wander into a few music shops while I was there and their trombones were dreadful, very thick guage brass almost always bare brass no lacquer and the slides were really hard; but - cheap as chips to a man on a salary from the West.

I do know times have changed though!

Doug

[DougHulme]

I just meant to edit the typos on that last post not re post it! Sorry about that, much haste less speed or something like that.

Doug