“Small” bores: what’s the difference?

[Hobart]

This is gonna sound like an oddly specific thread written at 3 AM. It is, bear with me here.
So I notice people use all sorts of “small” horns for jazz, especially in the top two parts, ranging anywhere from from a 0.485 4H to a 0.508 3B.
I know the larger sizes are generally more mellow, but is it wrong to use a certain bore size on a certain part, or is it more up to the person playing the part? Is an 18H peashooter gonna get me dirty looks if I use it to play second or something? I know it’s a weird question, but I’m curious as I collect more and more horns in that size range.

[mickael57280]

Look at the top big band today, you will see pretty much all that's possible.

Jazz at Lincoln center orchestra, Chris Crenshaw play 3rd with a 2B.

I've seen lots of gig where eather Steve Davis and David Gibson playing 1st and they play on .547 bore.

[Burgerbob]

With the right sound concept, almost* anything can work on any part. The regular two-day 3rd trombonist in Disneyland Band uses a 2B and sounds huge. The full time 1st trombonist plays a .508 and sounds just right.

But I've also played next to people on 2Bs on 3rd trombone in big bands that sounded much too thin to hold down the lower part, and others on .547s that just didn't have the sound for lead.

I think your life will generally be a bit easier using something that fits the part, and you, best. For most people, something smaller as you play higher parts, larger as you play lower.

[Posaunus]

I think your life will generally be a bit easier using something that fits the part, and you, best. For most people, something smaller as you play higher parts, larger as you play lower.

[BGuttman]

The gist of this is that there is no hard and fast rule. You don't automatically play 1st on a very small bore nor do you automatically play 3rd on a large bore.

You certainly can't play bass trombone parts on a King 2B, but that's a different issue entirely.

A small bore trombone (and a small or shallow mouthpiece) makes playing higher for long sessions easier, but that's no excuse for not practicing.

[ArbanRubank]

The gist of this is that there is no hard and fast rule. You don't automatically play 1st on a very small bore nor do you automatically play 3rd on a large bore.

You certainly can't play bass trombone parts on a King 2B, but that's a different issue entirely.

A small bore trombone (and a small or shallow mouthpiece) makes playing higher for long sessions easier, but that's no excuse for not practicing.

Not necessarily. Some of us can play higher and for longer on a large-rimmed, deep mouthpiece in a large-bore horn. The only reason I play a small-bore horn with a smaller mouthpiece is the sound, not for the range or endurance.

[baileyman]

This is gonna sound like an oddly specific thread written at 3 AM. It is, bear with me here.
So I notice people use all sorts of “small” horns for jazz, especially in the top two parts, ranging anywhere from from a 0.485 4H to a 0.508 3B.
I know the larger sizes are generally more mellow, but is it wrong to use a certain bore size on a certain part, or is it more up to the person playing the part? Is an 18H peashooter gonna get me dirty looks if I use it to play second or something? I know it’s a weird question, but I’m curious as I collect more and more horns in that size range.

For some of us, this matters a lot. But as people have already pointed out, lots of pros don't care. And talking to audience members, I have yet to find someone who knows what a good section sounds like, or can hear the trombones in a big band. The last place in the world where you can find a section that pays attention seems to be in Burbank.

[ssking2b]

I prefer horns around .500 - .508 in my section (3 tenors and a bass bone). Larger bore horns are not the sound I want in my section in a big band or large jazz ensemble setting, except for the bass bone. I won't make an issue of it until or unless we go to the recording studio. And yes, there are other places besides Burbank that pay attention.

Just so you understand, I wouldn't want the .500 - .508 size horns in my section on am orchestral gig, unless we were playing music conceived for smaller horns, and probably with an alto bone on top.

We should be paying attention to what the section sounds like whether the listeners do or not, and we should be passing these concepts on to the younger and more inexperienced players. The right tool for the job!

[ssking2b]

"I've seen lots of gig where eather Steve Davis and David Gibson playing 1st and they play on .547 bore.
[/quote]

And neither of these 2 guys has the right sound for le3ad in a big band session, IMHO. I have done recording sessions with DG, and his sound just didn't fit with the section - he wasn't on lead, he was on 3rd. The engineers had to muck with the eq on his tracks to make his sound fit into the section on the recording. ( I was on bass bone on those sessions.)

[mickael57280]

Ok so it make me ask myself AND you a question.

I play in 2 Big Band, one where I play 3rd or 2nd with guys playing .547 and on the other one playing 2nd with guys playing .500.

What to do?

[BGuttman]

Play what works. If you can clean the slide on your Selmer Largo it would probably be perfect for both. Don't get hung up on size. I have a Conn 40H that plays bigger than its 12.7 mm bore. I also have a Holton Stratodyne that seems to blend in nicely with all kinds of horns (it should; it did so for its previous owner as well).

[andym]

I once tried a Shires 0.508 with a rose brass bell that was incredible for Rochut and art songs. I loved playing it in the shop. They had a back room with a bunch of trombone music on a stand and I spent a good bit of time enjoying it. But I didn't think it was right for jazz ensemble which was why I was contemplating a small bore horn. Based on that experience, I later bought a used Shires 0.500-0.508 dual bore with a yellow brass bell, sight unseen. When I moved from my Bach 36 it made me feel like I had a much tighter blend with the rest of the section. I was playing 3rd. Not sure the rest of the band noticed, but it made a big difference to me. A few years later we had a sub on 1st and he was playing that 0.508 with the rose brass bell and he sounded great. So, it depends.

[Redthunder]

If DG had a problem fitting into a section I’m positive the bore size of his trombone had nothing to do with it. Also I’m sure he appreciates the second hand comments about his sound.

[Finetales]

I once tried a Shires 0.508 with a rose brass bell that was incredible for Rochut and art songs. I loved playing it in the shop. They had a back room with a bunch of trombone music on a stand and I spent a good bit of time enjoying it. But I didn't think it was right for jazz ensemble which was why I was contemplating a small bore horn.

There are a precious few small bore trombones out there that are just made to play classical music. I tried a Romeo Adaci .500"-bore trombone at DJ's once that would have been as out of place in a big band as a bass trombone on the lead book. Had the most gorgeous sound. I've never played another horn like it.

But most .500-.508 trombones will do fine on any big band tenor part with the right player and sound concept.

[biggiesmalls]

There are a precious few small bore trombones out there that are just made to play classical music. I tried a Romeo Adaci .500"-bore trombone at DJ's once that would have been as out of place in a big band as a bass trombone on the lead book. Had the most gorgeous sound. I've never played another horn like it.

Ah, DJ's Romeo Adaci. A true work of art.

[Finetales]

That's the one!

[deanmccarty]

Bore size added with mouthpiece selection and sound concept has everything to do with desired results. You could have Dick Shearer’s trombone and mouthpiece, but without the sound concept at play you will not get the same result. With that said, you can have the sound concept, but playing on a .547 instrument with a 4G sized mouthpiece will not produce the desired result. There isn’t a “perfect horn” or a “magic mouthpiece...”

In general, I would start with a .500 bore with an 11C sized mouthpiece. Then, listen to as many players playing the style that “speaks” to you. Listen endlessly until you get a sound in your head that is perfect. Then, attempt to reproduce that sound into reality. This is done with vowel shapes inside your mouth while playing. You will find that equipment may need to be changed. Start with the least expensive option first... the mouthpiece. If you feel you are physically doing everything correctly but your sound is too big... reduce the size of your mouthpiece... it could just mean a shallower cup, or a tighter backbore, or a smaller rim... or some combination of the three. You will find after trial and error that you get closer to your desired sound.

Once you decide that you’ve gone as far as you can with your mouthpiece journey, try different tapers in leadpipe choices... if you still haven’t found “that” sound... if you’re playing to big, go with a smaller bore trombone... if you’re playing too small, go with a larger bore. It IS a journey... and there is no right or wrong answer. What works for one person may or may not work for another... it’s all about that sound concept in your head. I didn’t even get into the different alloy combinations on instruments. It took me over 30 years to find THE instrument that gave me the sound in my head.

I thought I was happy with what I had, because it was the closest thing I had ever played... then, one day at a show, I played around just to kill time at the Rath booth... I played every combination for every bore size (for small bores)... and my goodness... I came across a combination that made my head explode... I had the concept in my head... I had the mouthpiece that worked for me (Elliott 95B), and then those were combined with a .500 bore Rath R10 with a nickel 7.5” bell, gold brass tuning side, nickel hand slide, and and a 10A narrow leadpipe. This isn’t an ad for Rath... this is to show what I went through to get to that instrument/mouthpiece choice.

My very first small bore trombone was a Bach 36 (not really small, but I got it at a very good price). At the time, I was listening to Bill Watrous, Dick Shearer, James Pankow, and JJ Johnson a lot... four VERY different sounds. My next horn was a King 2B. Things got closer to the sound in my head that had been produced. I had added listening to Dave Steinmeyer, Julian Priester, and Rick Lillard. The sound in my head was changing... but always leaning to Dick Shearer. Long story short, I moved to a Blessing B5, then a Conn 6H, then a Shires .500 bore, then a BAC .500 bore, and now to my current Rath R10. The sound in my head is a combination of a LOT of different players with Dick Shearer being the forefront of that. The R10 paired with the Elliott 95B produces the sound that is in my head.

BUT... I can take that same setup, and change my sound concept to a more classical sound... and that horn opens up into a more mellow sound. Is it easier on a .547? Yes... but in a pinch, I can make the same horn sound completely different. Would I use a .547 horn for jazz... well yes.., I had a straight 4B for a while in my journey... it was great as a solo horn, but just didn’t work as a section horn... and... it NEVER gave me that sound that was in my head. Would I use a .547 bore instrument today? No... I would use my .500 bore. Maybe I would use my .525 bore if I were playing a 3rd part... it would depend on the literature, and the sound that the rest of the section was producing. I’m a firm believer of having the right tool for the job... so I have a .500, .525, .547, and a bass... it just depends on the situation as to which one I’m playing. I have played all four on recording sessions... it depends on what is asked of you.

[mickael57280]

Ok but what to do when you play in school big band with all playing .547 f att due to classical teaching?

[ngrinder]

Ok but what to do when you play in school big band with all playing .547 f att due to classical teaching?

Play the music as well as you can. Don’t worry about this stuff at the moment. If you can hit all the notes, are swinging, and playing in tune, you’re doing the right thing, at least until a teacher/clinician/musician you admire listens to you and says you need a new horn.

Just focus on the music and process.

[dukesboneman]

For about 20 years I played everything on a Conn 78H. Lead, Dixieland, shows R&B, Salsa. That was my horn.
Growing up when I did in Rochester, NY in the shadow of Eastman and Emory Remington (all my teachers but one where former Remington Students), you played a big or bigger horn with a large-ish mouthpiece.I later switched to a Bach 36 to get closer to the sound in my head. I 2000 I started playing and teaching in Buffalo, NY. 60 miles away and a world away. Playing in Buffalo Big Bands suddenly I couldn`t hear myself at all. My sound was big round and dark but completely disappeared in the big band. I bought a beautiful LT 16MG plays great but still tooooooooo dark. My current weapon of choice for years now is a Bach Lt12G with a W6 leadpipe. It blends great, cuts when asked to and a hell of a lot less work. Through out this entire journey I played on a Mount Vernon Bach 7C

[Jimkinkella]

Play the music as well as you can. Don’t worry about this stuff at the moment. If you can hit all the notes, are swinging, and playing in tune, you’re doing the right thing, at least until a teacher/clinician/musician you admire listens to you and says you need a new horn.

Just focus on the music and process.

This is probably the best advice on this thread.

[imsevimse]

I think your life will generally be a bit easier using something that fits the part, and you, best. For most people, something smaller as you play higher parts, larger as you play lower.

I think this is it. In Sweden the few professional big bands there are expect of you to bring something that fit the music and the section. The professional trombone players I see and meet often use Bach 16, King 2B, Bach 6, Yamaha 891Z, Yamaha YSL-697, Conn 6h, King 3B and such for 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Bass trombone can be anything from single valved Holton TR-183 to double valved Shires or Bachs I do not know the model of. This is for jazz and big band on this side of the pond. I have never heard a professional concert where anyone played a .547 for lead in a big band, not even a .525. I do understand tradition may have changed to bigger horns in other parts of the world. We still have the american big bands from the Swing era in the 60ies as our role models and at that time many guys played small horns. The Conn 6h and the King 2b were very popular models for jazz and it must be for a reson.

/Tom

[Doug Elliott]

My 6 years of hell was playing 2nd in a well known big band with a Bach 36 on lead. Me on a .490, then .500, 3rd player on .500, and a Yamaha bass. Totally top heavy, impossible to match.

[heinzgries]

There are a precious few small bore trombones out there that are just made to play classical music. I tried a Romeo Adaci .500"-bore trombone at DJ's once that would have been as out of place in a big band as a bass trombone on the lead book. Had the most gorgeous sound. I've never played another horn like it.

But most .500-.508 trombones will do fine on any big band tenor part with the right player and sound concept.

Romeo Adaci was a great brass instrument maker in germany.unfortunately, he died of a heart attack a few years ago.
He had made me some nice modifications on my Bach LT 6. Gold plating the whole instrument. Removable lead pipe.
Sound plate on the tuning slide

[ngrinder]

Play the music as well as you can. Don’t worry about this stuff at the moment. If you can hit all the notes, are swinging, and playing in tune, you’re doing the right thing, at least until a teacher/clinician/musician you admire listens to you and says you need a new horn.

Just focus on the music and process.

This is probably the best advice on this thread.

I should say....I agree with the majority on this thread, but for a high school student there are more important things at play. I used a .547 as my main axe for years in school, but when I moved to NYC I went down to .500 after about two weeks. I couldn’t make the big horn work for lead and *really* couldn’t for commercial work. Sitting in iso brass rooms in pits trying to match two lead tpt players with a big horn....I just couldn’t do it. Won’t say it can’t be done because there are folks I greatly admire who can, so I really only speak for myself on this. I have always found that it’s easier to make a small horn play big than a big horn small. Just my 2 cents!

[BGuttman]

This is probably the best advice on this thread.

I should say....I agree with the majority on this thread, but for a high school student there are more important things at play. I used a .547 as my main axe for years in school, but when I moved to NYC I went down to .500 after about two weeks. I couldn’t make the big horn work for lead and *really* couldn’t for commercial work. Sitting in iso brass rooms in pits trying to match two lead tpt players with a big horn....I just couldn’t do it. Won’t say it can’t be done because there are folks I greatly admire who can, so I really only speak for myself on this. I have always found that it’s easier to make a small horn play big than a big horn small. Just my 2 cents!

There is an important point to be made here. I see a lot of young players who think that "this size horn for this and that size horn for that" and think they need to have a stable of horns and switch off for different applications. Problem is, each size horn represents a different instrument. If you try to play too many different instruments while you are still in your formative years you are dooming yourself to failure. Learn one instrument first, then branch out.

[Jimkinkella]

I should say....I agree with the majority on this thread, but for a high school student there are more important things at play. I used a .547 as my main axe for years in school, but when I moved to NYC I went down to .500 after about two weeks. I couldn’t make the big horn work for lead and *really* couldn’t for commercial work. Sitting in iso brass rooms in pits trying to match two lead tpt players with a big horn....I just couldn’t do it. Won’t say it can’t be done because there are folks I greatly admire who can, so I really only speak for myself on this. I have always found that it’s easier to make a small horn play big than a big horn small. Just my 2 cents!

There is an important point to be made here. I see a lot of young players who think that "this size horn for this and that size horn for that" and think they need to have a stable of horns and switch off for different applications. Problem is, each size horn represents a different instrument. If you try to play too many different instruments while you are still in your formative years you are dooming yourself to failure. Learn one instrument first, then branch out.

There is definitely something to be said about playing equipment appropriate to the gig.

I started school with just a .508
Then for decades I only had 2 horns, a .547 and a .500 (and a backup or 2)
Then I moved driving distance to Noah Gladstone's shop....

Again, mostly agreeing with Nick, it's easier to sit 3rd with a .500 than lead on a .547
They both have their places, and it can be tough to shoehorn a thing into an inappropriate place.
Or, in Doug's example, an appropriate thing into an inappropriate situation.

There can be exceptions, but they're just that: exceptions

[imsevimse]

I should say....I agree with the majority on this thread, but for a high school student there are more important things at play. I used a .547 as my main axe for years in school, but when I moved to NYC I went down to .500 after about two weeks. I couldn’t make the big horn work for lead and *really* couldn’t for commercial work. Sitting in iso brass rooms in pits trying to match two lead tpt players with a big horn....I just couldn’t do it. Won’t say it can’t be done because there are folks I greatly admire who can, so I really only speak for myself on this. I have always found that it’s easier to make a small horn play big than a big horn small. Just my 2 cents!

There is an important point to be made here. I see a lot of young players who think that "this size horn for this and that size horn for that" and think they need to have a stable of horns and switch off for different applications. Problem is, each size horn represents a different instrument. If you try to play too many different instruments while you are still in your formative years you are dooming yourself to failure. Learn one instrument first, then branch out.

Yes, naturally this is true.

I think young trombone players should learn on small bore trombones in the .500 size. If we think of it most advice should be adopted to the context.

1. Are you a beginner?
You only need ONE horn because you need to learn elementary things. Question is how long a beginner is a beginner. To me it has nothing to do with for how long you have played. It has all to do with maturity in techniqe and music. Some persons will never leave the beginner level. Next level is the intermediate level. This is when you might consider another horn. I think you need to have reached the level of advanced before you should consider multiple horns.

2 Have no money?
Don't worry you only need one horn. If you are an advanced player and find yourself ever in a situation where your horn does not fit you take the desicion what to do. Usually you do not start on lead in a big band if you are introduced to the pro world anyway. You will be there on a recommendation and they will give you the chair they think fits you and your playing. This is when you start question yourself: What horn do I think fit the context?

3. Are you a professional?
You do not have to listen to anything in this thread and probably have dealt with the problem already. You have thoughts of the horns other people play and what that do to the section and you know what you like and you know what is needed of you to stay in business.

If someone asks the question what trombone to use on lead we could consider all above and give the advice with that in mind or we just read the covers on vinyl records, make references to pictures of professional bands and their trombone players and what they use. What did the best bands sound like and what were they playing? What did the greatest trombonesections in the word play? Chech out Urbee Green, David Steinmeier, Sei Zentner, Bobby Burgess, J Cleavland, Don Lusher, Charlie Loopeer, J. Howard and many many more. Chech out the best bands of today. What does Andy Martin play?

We do not need to emphasize the exceptions and we do not need to reference our local community band..

/Tom

[harrisonreed]

LOL Tom! Great post! All these comments about what horn is the true horn for a given style lol.

Yes, obviously JJ was on the wrong horn -- if only he had used some very small Bach 16!!

It's more important for us to sound like "us", and find any sound at all.

[Posaunus]

My 6 years of hell was playing 2nd in a well known big band with a Bach 36 on lead. Me on a .490, then .500, 3rd player on .500, and a Yamaha bass. Totally top heavy, impossible to match.

I understand, Doug. I also find it hard to play within an "unbalanced" trombone section. For big band, I prefer a size gradation from top to bottom: 0.491"-0.508" bore on 1st -3rd (possibly 0.515"-0.520" on 3rd), and full bass trombone (or possibly 0.547" bore for some repertoire) on 4th. Comfortable for the section, and it's what (I think) listeners expect.

[BurckhardtS]

Every situation is contextual, and I feel like treating every situation individually is the best, but here are some things I've noticed about section playing and balancing:

Commonly, people mistake pitch/rhythm issues for balance issues, and vice versa. If it's not rhythmically together or mostly in tune, there's no reason to be talking about balance/color matching. This goes with note lengths too. Sometimes the bass trombone will play a fraction longer than everyone else and it gives the impression that they are playing louder when they're really just hanging over past everyone else.

It's at least clear to me there the smallest should be on the top part, and the largest on the bottom part, and not mess up that flow. How large/small really depends.

I played in an excellent big band with a .500 (later dual bore .500- on lead, .500 on 2nd and I switched between my Yamaha 354 .500 and my Edwards .547 tenor occasionally (single bore .562 on bass). I would play the .547 on more modern charts, where I would either be in unison or low 5ths with the bass trombone. I basically listened to the voicings on the first readthrough and would pick after the first rehearsal or two.

The bigger horn on 3rd fills out the section a little more and gives it a little more power, but it takes more work to match on unisons and voicings that are tight or higher.

There are recordings of the section with me playing both, on YouTube if you look hard enough.

[ssking2b]

If DG had a problem fitting into a section I’m positive the bore size of his trombone had nothing to do with it. Also I’m sure he appreciates the second hand comments about his sound.

I din't say he was a bad player OR had bad sound - I said his sound didn't fit with the section. That's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. The Producer on the session was of the same opinion.

[Cmillar]

Worst big band lead trombone I’ve heard?

When Joe Alessi played lead in the NY Phil big band section (with some freelance pros brought in) when they played a concert including Leonard Bernstein’s piece for big band and orchestra (Prelude, Fugue, and Riffs).

He totally obliterated and wiped out the big band, plus the orchestra playing his regular symphony horn. Not very memorable if you like music.

Best Mahler 3rd I’ve heard? Joe Alessi playing his big horn in it’s proper place.

[Redthunder]

I don't know anybody that's suggesting to play lead on an orchestral large bore trombone. It's also important to note that not all large bore horns are the same. So if somebody shows up to play a section part on one that doesn't mean you're automatically inserting a Joe Alessi type sound into that section.

There's also more than one "right" sound for big band playing, section or lead. People can have an opinion about what they like and what think works best, but that doesn't mean that other players who do something different are doing it wrong.

Context matters a lot.

[Reedman1]

I have kind of the same question as the OP. Background: I'm currently playing a 2B, and have played a .500 XO 1632. I have a decent low register from practicing flexibilities and pedals, and I use a 5C mouthpiece, which works for me. I've got a nice high register, too.

A teacher (retired) that I know has suggested a .508 horn, and says it would be more versatile. Now, I'm an amateur in my mid 60s. A good player, not a super-duper great player. No horn or mouthpiece is going to get me gigs, even if there were no pandemic and there still were any gigs. But I can't help but wonder - what might a .508 horn get me that a .500 or my 2B doesn't? PS Please don't say "Get a teacher". It's not relevant to the discussion.

[imsevimse]

I have kind of the same question as the OP. Background: I'm currently playing a 2B, and have played a .500 XO 1632. I have a decent low register from practicing flexibilities and pedals, and I use a 5C mouthpiece, which works for me. I've got a nice high register, too.

A teacher (retired) that I know has suggested a .508 horn, and says it would be more versatile. Now, I'm an amateur in my mid 60s. A good player, not a super-duper great player. No horn or mouthpiece is going to get me gigs, even if there were no pandemic and there still were any gigs. But I can't help but wonder - what might a .508 horn get me that a .500 or my 2B doesn't? PS Please don't say "Get a teacher". It's not relevant to the discussion.

A little fuller sound is what you could perhaps notice if you compare a .500 to a .508 and your low register could gain from that change too, but all depends on you. I have never played a 5C so don't know what to expect. The mouthpiece is also of great importance if you want a change.

The difference between a .500 and .508 is not that big to me. Both horns could be good for both jazz and classical but a .508 might be more versatile and fit both better. Personally I choose nothing smaller than a..508 for classical but I could due with a .500 if I have to. I think the difference is a lot bigger if you compare the next size which would be a .525 to a .500. That is to me a significant difference in size and the .525 leans more towards classical (if I decide)

/Tom

[Reedman1]

I have kind of the same question as the OP. Background: I'm currently playing a 2B, and have played a .500 XO 1632. I have a decent low register from practicing flexibilities and pedals, and I use a 5C mouthpiece, which works for me. I've got a nice high register, too.

A teacher (retired) that I know has suggested a .508 horn, and says it would be more versatile. Now, I'm an amateur in my mid 60s. A good player, not a super-duper great player. No horn or mouthpiece is going to get me gigs, even if there were no pandemic and there still were any gigs. But I can't help but wonder - what might a .508 horn get me that a .500 or my 2B doesn't? PS Please don't say "Get a teacher". It's not relevant to the discussion.

A little fuller sound is what you could perhaps notice if you compare a .500 to a .508 and your low register could gain from that change too, but all depends on you. I have never played a 5C so don't know what to expect. The mouthpiece is also of great importance if you want a change.

The difference between a .500 and .508 is not that big to me. Both horns could be good for both jazz and classical but a .508 might be more versatile and fit both better. Personally I choose nothing smaller than a..508 for classical but I could due with a .500 if I have to. I think the difference is a lot bigger if you compare the next size which would be a .525 to a .500. That is to me a significant difference in size and the .525 leans more towards classical (if I decide)

/Tom

Thanks! I don’t play classical, so I don’t think I’ll be going with a .525.

So a .508 might give a slightly fuller sound, perhaps a fuller low register. Any gain in volume? Richer timbre overall? Are .508s noticeably heavier than .500s?

[hyperbolica]

There are two big influences that smaller bore has on my playing. The first to notice is the articulations. I get faster, harder articulations on the smaller bore. That means I can use less tongue, or I just get harder articulations. It might be more nuanced than to just say "articulation", but that's how it feels, and how I notice it.

The second big difference is air, and air effects everything. I'm typically a 525/547 bore guy, so when I pick up a 562, I have to change how I breathe, how I phrase, etc. When I pick up a sub-500 bore horn, I get really backed up and wind up exhaling at the ends of phrases, so I have to remember to take in less air than for a 525.

500 and 508 are really close, but that will depend on your point of reference. If you've played a 2B all your life, a 508 is definitely gonna feel bigger, but I don't think it will improve anything unless you have a thin sound. Remember the volume of air is directly related to the bore cross sectional area, and the area is 3.14xRadius^2, so if the diameter changes by 8, the volume changes by about 50. If the diameter changes by 25, the volume changes by ~450, so that's a big change.

In terms of "bore etiquette", I think some people are far too sensitive. If you are a pro in competition for positions and jobs, then this matters, but you're probably not going to ask a bunch of people on the internet. If you're an amateur, then just play what you have. Most of the people I play with only have one or two horns, and only differentiated to the extent that one is tenor and one is bass, or one is straight and one has a valve.

I know one guy who plays a straight 547 Yamaha for everything. Everything. Big band lead, trombone quartet, church solos, Broadway musicals. And he's one of the top players in the area. Two other people I play with play Bach 36b for everything. Another one has a Conn 78h and a Conn 70h. Nobody I know has a full catalog of horns they can dial in for every nuanced situation. I've had to fill in lead when all I had was a bass. Is it academically ideal? No. But it works, and often the audience, hell, even the trumpet section probably won't even notice.

So the answer is play what you have. If you have to select a horn, figure out what the range of playing you might do will be, and aim for the middle. If you get to select a second horn, fill the biggest gap you have. But don't worry about bore etiquette too much. We make far too much about it anyway.

[Reedman1]

Thanks, hyperbolica, that's a really nice and very helpful answer. One thing: "If you've played a 2B all your life, a 508 is definitely gonna feel bigger, but I don't think it will improve anything unless you have a thin sound." I actually played woodwinds for most of my playing life, then cornet and then trumpet. Woodwinds, particularly bari sax, tend to take more wind than high brass - about the same as trombone, I guess. As a trombone player, I play trad jazz and bop, and if the pandemic goes away, I might see if I can get into a big band. So it sounds like 2B or not 2B all depends on the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.

[BGuttman]

The design of the small bore can also have a big effect. I have a Conn 40H (0.500" bore, TIS) that plays much bigger than any of my other small bores. I wouldn't get too het up on small differences. You can easily cover the top 3 voices in Big Band with anything from a Conn 4H (0.485" bore) to a Bach 16M (0.509" bore). In a Community Band you will be welcomed on any part provided you have an instrument that works and you can "sorta" play it.

[Reedman1]

The design of the small bore can also have a big effect. I have a Conn 40H (0.500" bore, TIS) that plays much bigger than any of my other small bores. I wouldn't get too het up on small differences. You can easily cover the top 3 voices in Big Band with anything from a Conn 4H (0.485" bore) to a Bach 16M (0.509" bore). In a Community Band you will be welcomed on any part provided you have an instrument that works and you can "sorta" play it.

Thank you. You are very kind.