M&W Custom Small Bore Trombone Thoughts?

[thepianoman04]

Anyone played or own a M&W small bore trombone that they can talk about or compare to other custom small bore trombones out there and how it sounds/plays?

I’m on the market for a custom horn and stumbled upon this company and wanted to see if anyone has played their rather newly released small bore setup at a show.

Typically I play a 508 or could possibly do a dual bore 500/508. 500 is too small for me.

[ssking2b]

try the XO 1634 .508 bore

[thepianoman04]

try the XO 1634 .508 bore

Already owned both Fedchock horns actually. The 500 & 508 bore had some quirks to them that I didn’t like so I sold both of them.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

If the M&W small bore trombones are new in the last couple of months, I doubt that many people have been out there play testing them in this current environment. I can say that M&W makes great instruments with attention to detail. A couple of their big bore horns have come through my shop for cleaning, dent removal and alignment. The metal was high-quality and the instruments were very solid and well-constructed. I would expect that their small-bore trombones would have the same attention to detail.

[MagnumH]

If it’s the same one that Dillon currently has for sale, I played it a bit at ATW this year. It’s a truly fantastic horn. I don’t remember specific characteristics regarding slotting, etc., but the sound it made was streets ahead of almost every other horn there. Trombonemonkey (also on this forum) also played it, I believe, and found it fantastic. Big sound, SUPER solid, great slide...for me, it’s a great horn. If it wasn’t for the BAC Paseo they had there, I would have bought the M&W.

Also, DEFINITELY check out Lawler trombones if you haven’t already. Sounds like they could be right up your alley.

[thepianoman04]

If it’s the same one that Dillon currently has for sale, I played it a bit at ATW this year. It’s a truly fantastic horn. I don’t remember specific characteristics regarding slotting, etc., but the sound it made was streets ahead of almost every other horn there. Trombonemonkey (also on this forum) also played it, I believe, and found it fantastic. Big sound, SUPER solid, great slide...for me, it’s a great horn. If it wasn’t for the BAC Paseo they had there, I would have bought the M&W.

Also, DEFINITELY check out Lawler trombones if you haven’t already. Sounds like they could be right up your alley.

I believe there is a 500 bore M&W small bore at Dillon if it hasn’t sold according to Matthew at M&W.

Thanks for the feedback! Glad to know they make some great stuff.

Funny you mention Lawler, I live like an hour from their headquarters and have been meaning to visit and try some of their stuff.

[MagnumH]

Funny you mention Lawler, I live like an hour from their headquarters and have been meaning to visit and try some of their stuff.

Yes, do that! If I was within driving distance of Roy’s place, I’d never leave. And I’d own a Lawler.

[thepianoman04]

Funny you mention Lawler, I live like an hour from their headquarters and have been meaning to visit and try some of their stuff.

Yes, do that! If I was within driving distance of Roy’s place, I’d never leave. And I’d own a Lawler.

Left Roy a VM but was closed. Will try to go see him tomorrow if he is taking visits.

Thanks for the tip. Would love to support M&W as well since he’s a newer company and apparently makes great horns. Love the thought of owning one of his first and very few small bore horns.

[lmalewic]

The craftsmanship that comes out of the MW shop is top notch. I can honestly say that if you want to go with a small bore horn from them you will not be disappointed. Give Matthew a call and let him know what you are looking for. Best of luck on your search.

[harrisonreed]

I thought the M&W horns I tried at ATW all felt like the best made horns I've ever held. What build quality! They were absolutely beautiful.

Unfortunately, looks do not equate to how the horns played. They weren't for me. It was like the compression was off. I handed them back to the reps and said that the horns were really well built.

[Mikebmiller]

Try. Shires MD + before buying anything else.Really nice.

[thepianoman04]

Try. Shires MD + before buying anything else.Really nice.

Have also tried both the MD & MD+ and was the best sounding horn I’ve played to date but was harder to play than my Rath R2, R3 or Edwards T-302.

The Raths were both so easy to play but didn’t give me the sound I wanted & the Edwards falls somewhere in the middle as far as sound I want and playability and is my go to horn for now.

[thepianoman04]

I thought the M&W horns I tried at ATW all felt like the best made horns I've ever held. What build quality! They were absolutely beautiful.

Unfortunately, looks do not equate to how the horns played. They weren't for me. It was like the compression was off. I handed them back to the reps and said that the horns were really well built.

Interesting. Yea I’ve heard nothing but raving reviews on their build quality & craftsmanship but am anxious to actually get one in my hand and play for some time. The compression you speak of sounds like the MD+ Shires I played for a while. Loved the sound it gave me but had some quirks to it that I refused to work around for sound and sold it.

Hoping the M&W small bore doesn’t have those same quirks like the Shires.

Was it a large bore you tried at ATW or small bore specifically?

[thepianoman04]

The craftsmanship that comes out of the MW shop is top notch. I can honestly say that if you want to go with a small bore horn from them you will not be disappointed. Give Matthew a call and let him know what you are looking for. Best of luck on your search.

Much appreciated. I’ve already had a great conversation with Matthew and have begun the process of putting together a horn for me to try specifically a red brass bell and either 508 or 500/508 dual bore slide. Said he doesn’t have any red brass bells made but can have one made in about a month or so. We’ll see what he sends me and if I like it compared to my Edwards I may buy it and make the Edwards the back up.

[harrisonreed]

I thought the M&W horns I tried at ATW all felt like the best made horns I've ever held. What build quality! They were absolutely beautiful.

Unfortunately, looks do not equate to how the horns played. They weren't for me. It was like the compression was off. I handed them back to the reps and said that the horns were really well built.

Interesting. Yea I’ve heard nothing but raving reviews on their build quality & craftsmanship but am anxious to actually get one in my hand and play for some time. The compression you speak of sounds like the MD+ Shires I played for a while. Loved the sound it gave me but had some quirks to it that I refused to work around for sound and sold it.

Hoping the M&W small bore doesn’t have those same quirks like the Shires.

Was it a large bore you tried at ATW or small bore specifically?

I tried two large bores and their alto. I don't think they had a small bore at that time. The large bores played OK, but it felt like I was getting "less" out for what I was putting in. Coming right off the Edwards Oft model and moving to those, the difference was very apparent to me. The alto, I played it right after I tried the Shires yellow bell alto. Again, the shires had great resistance and you got out a lot for what you put in. The M&W just "didn't".

I felt really bad saying I didn't like them. Those guys at M&W REALLY care about their product. I have no doubt that they are a great style of horn for the right person.

[thepianoman04]

Interesting. Yea I’ve heard nothing but raving reviews on their build quality & craftsmanship but am anxious to actually get one in my hand and play for some time. The compression you speak of sounds like the MD+ Shires I played for a while. Loved the sound it gave me but had some quirks to it that I refused to work around for sound and sold it.

Hoping the M&W small bore doesn’t have those same quirks like the Shires.

Was it a large bore you tried at ATW or small bore specifically?

I tried two large bores and their alto. I don't think they had a small bore at that time. The large bores played OK, but it felt like I was getting "less" out for what I was putting in. Coming right off the Edwards Oft model and moving to those, the difference was very apparent to me. The alto, I played it right after I tried the Shires yellow bell alto. Again, the shires had great resistance and you got out a lot for what you put in. The M&W just "didn't".

I felt really bad saying I didn't like them. Those guys at M&W REALLY care about their product. I have no doubt that they are a great style of horn for the right person.

Appreciate the honesty & I hear ya.

I understand some horns/brands are not for everyone and that is to be expected. Matthew himself even said that the setups they have at shows may not be the right fitment for everyone and what works for someone may not work for another. Hence why some first impressions aren’t great if the setup is off for that player and others it fits right in their wheelhouse and they rave about the horn.

Everyone has their way of approaching the horn and may have just not been the right setup for you or just how they make horns may not work for your playing style or preference.

Trying to take in everyone’s feedback to make a well informed decision. Just excited to get to play one and will share my thoughts in a couple months. lol

[ssking2b]

Could you please tell me what quirks you found in the XO trombones you had? I'd like to report that to the company. we're always trying to improve the product!

[thepianoman04]

Could you please tell me what quirks you found in the XO trombones you had? I'd like to report that to the company. we're always trying to improve the product!

Hard to put it in writing but I’ll do my best.

It was just something about the way the 2nd and 3rd position partials slotted above E & Ebs above the staff.

I just got some push back in blow in some areas in those positions that I didn’t want to have to work around or “get used to” so I sold them.

The upper register would eventually slot once I got used to how it felt but was different than any other small bores I’ve played. Unusual. Also, I know the quality in build consistency/manufacturing is another small flaw.

Hope that helps.

Thanks,

[ssking2b]

Thanks! I haven't experienced any of that on the ones I have played, but I am going to let KHS know. Sometimes something just slips thru - and they should be aware of flaws like this!

[dembones]

Try. Shires MD + before buying anything else.Really nice.

Have also tried both the MD & MD+ and was the best sounding horn I’ve played to date but was harder to play than my Rath R2, R3 or Edwards T-302.

The Raths were both so easy to play but didn’t give me the sound I wanted & the Edwards falls somewhere in the middle as far as sound I want and playability and is my go to horn for now.

I had a similar experience with the MD+; beautiful sound but more effort to play and heavy compared to a Rath. Wondering how the M&W and Rath compare.

Anybody played the M&W 336 .525? I'd like to hear any impressions. And has anyone played an M&W with a nickel silver bell?

[hyperbolica]

Anybody played the M&W 336 .525? I'd like to hear any impressions. And has anyone played an M&W with a nickel silver bell?

I played the 525. That horn would have cost me a divorce, I think. Really wonderful quintet horn, maybe light orchestral. I'd play it all day long in a big resonant church. I really liked the R3 nickel bell too, but I think that M&w had something extra special.

[timbone]

Do you know anything about the Courtois AC402TRR? If you are looking for red brass, .508

[thepianoman04]

Do you know anything about the Courtois AC402TRR? If you are looking for red brass, .508

You know I haven’t looked much into Courtois trombones.

I will do so now.

I only know of a couple of the guys from the Maniacal 4 trombone quartet that have/had endorsements with them but haven’t heard if they are any good or not.

Have you played one? What are your thoughts?

[timbone]

Actually I designed the 508 horn. The M 4 guys liked the 500 horn that Jim Mcfalls designed. Mine came after. I wanted red brass, and we have that in yellow also. If you look up Delfeayo Marsalis and Luke Brimhall, that is what they are playing on.

[timbone]

Just a thought! The 508 world had been dormant for some time. I basically spent a career playing a SS 3b and a 16M.

[thepianoman04]

Actually I designed the 508 horn. The M 4 guys liked the 500 horn that Jim Mcfalls designed. Mine came after. I wanted red brass, and we have that in yellow also. If you look up Delfeayo Marsalis and Luke Brimhall, that is what they are playing on.

Too cool! Well now I have to try it out.

I’m thinking red brass is just best for my playing style and the nickel slide complements it so well for me. Debating whether to go straight 508 like I currently default to or if a 500/508 dual bore is more efficient for my tend to playing more lead stuff.

We’ll see. Going to Lawler’s shop Saturday to play all his stuff & see if something speaks to me.

Open to trying anything at this point. Just on the market for the perfect horn for me.

Was close to buying a custom Edwards horn I got fitted for but just wasn’t happy with services/communication so backed out.

Now I’ve got $3k burning a hole in my pocket and I’m not just gonna buy the first horn that I try or comes my way. I’m willing to be patient to find the right horn fit for me.

Could be M&W, could be Lawler, hell, could swallow my pride and go back to Edwards if I can’t find anything but that is very doubtful. I know there are plenty of options out there for great horns I haven’t tried yet that might float my boat more than Edwards.

Time will tell.

[timbone]

Well you are doing the right thing, play as much as you can and take your time. Have someone (you trust) listen or record yourself. Years ago I bought a custom horn (which I still have and you would probably love), and my immediate thought was even though I knew exactly what I wanted- all the options at a custom shop (factory) was a distraction and can be confusing- but I did it and had a great experience. If you want to know more- just pm me. I can't give away too many secrets lol

[hornbuilder]

I think it should be noted that Timbone works for Courtois, mentioned to provide full disclosure.

And yes, I am the owner/technician of M&W.

[johntarr]

Yes, do that! If I was within driving distance of Roy’s place, I’d never leave. And I’d own a Lawler.

Left Roy a VM but was closed. Will try to go see him tomorrow if he is taking visits.

Thanks for the tip. Would love to support M&W as well since he’s a newer company and apparently makes great horns. Love the thought of owning one of his first and very few small bore horns.

I would take the op to visit Roy Lawler given that you live so close. I bought a Lawler last December and am very satisfied with it. Unfortunately i couldn’t visit his shop. One of the things that is so interesting is how much you can change just by replacing the bell flare.

By no means am I trying to promote one maker over another but being able to try Roy’s horns would at the very least, give you the peace of mind that you tried them, even if they aren’t what you end up purchasing.

[thepianoman04]

I think it should be noted that Timbone works for Courtois, mentioned to provide full disclosure.

And yes, I am the owner/technician of M&W.

Figured as much.

Question for you. Do you make nickel outer slides?

I noticed your website says your slide materials are only yellow & gold brass but wasn’t sure if you made nickel slides &/or dual bore nickel slides at that.

Possible for you to make say a 500/508 nickel slide?

[ZacharyThornton]

OP, Would you mind sending me a pm listing what Edwards did that wasn’t up to standards? I work for them and I want to help us do everything to make a customers experience great.
Thanks!

[hornbuilder]

Pianoman04

Yes, nickel slides in all the relevant bores are offered. Will make that correction to the website. Thanks for the heads-up.

[thepianoman04]

Pianoman04

Yes, nickel slides in all the relevant bores are offered. Will make that correction to the website. Thanks for the heads-up.

Well, I’m trying Lawler trombones out tomorrow for fun with a friend but your M&W small bore is what I’m really looking forward to trying ASAP!

I’ll give you a hint...red brass 7-3/4” or 8” bell, 500/508 or straight 508 dual radius nickel slide, nickel neck pipe & single radius yellow brass tuning slide.

[TromboneMonkey]

Interesting reading everyones' thoughts here. I agree with almost all of them.

Like MagnumH, I found the BAC Paseo, M&W, and my Lawler to be the best horns at ATW this year.

Like thepianoman04, I find the Shires to have a great sound (although I must admit I prefer the sound of some of my horns like the Lawler or my Williams), and I find Raths to be abundantly nimble but provide inadequate feedback to me while I'm playing, which is not an uncommon complaint, I gather.

I adore the Courtois .500 but the .508 feels very tight to me; I don't know why, but I am suspicious that they modeled the leadpipe from a tight 3b leadpipe. A lot of 3b leadpipes are very small for a .508.

I really want to try the XO horns and eventually the Greenhoe small bores (when they are released). The new Greenhoe large bore horns that Baltimore Brass has are hands-down THE most nimble trombones I've ever played (even more than Rath!!!). The notes just fly out of them. If they can make a small bore like that the world might implode.

BUT! This is a thread about the M&W small bore. Like I said, it, my Lawler, and the Paseo that MagnumH bought were the three best showings at ATW in my opinion. Compared to my Lawler and the Paseo I thought the M&W had more middle and low overtones in the sound and was less "slotty". It favored smooth articulations. Think classic Urbie Green. I thought it was in tune from top to bottom and reminded me of my Williams in that it felt "solid" to hold, as harrisonreed's comment alluded to. I personally like a bit more point on the edge of my sound so prefer my Lawler. I'm not sure what options are available for the M&W though, one might be able to put one together however (s)he wants.