Rath Large Bores

Post Reply
StevenHolloway
Posts: 364
Joined: Tue May 01, 2018 10:49 am

Rath Large Bores

Post by StevenHolloway »

Hi, I’d like to get some feedback about what everyone thinks about the Rath large bore horns (R4F). How do they compare to some of the American horns like Bach, Shires, and Edwards? What are your observations and what do you like/dislike about them?
Vegasbound
Posts: 1058
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:11 am

Re: Rath Large Bores

Post by Vegasbound »

Why are you asking?

What do you play now? What isn't your current horn doing that makes you think boutique is the way to go?

If buying a Rath are you going to Rath to be custom fitted? And if so go with a totally open mind and your current horn
User avatar
Mv2541
Posts: 557
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:07 am
Location: New Jersey

Re: Rath Large Bores

Post by Mv2541 »

Most R4s have a narrow slide like a Conn, but you can get a wide slide which changes the horn more than any other part IMHO.

The lack of bracing means they sound louder in front of the bell than the effort you're putting in; the expense is that they offer very little feedback to you behind the bell which can be really tough to deal with. My setup was quite red (red bell, yellow TS, bronze slide) and the sound got very angry as you stepped on the gas. The Shires I switched to was much more even across the dynamic spectrum, which I came over time to dislike and why I ended up with a super thin red bell.

My Rath was fantastic for me, but didn't fit well at all in a section of American style horns (Edwards/Shires/Bach/Courtois/Yamaha). I miss her, but I think the Shires with an axial was right for me at that stage of development. If your ideal setup is something like mine you can save alot of money and just get an 88H. Not as pretty and not as easy to play, but also not as sterile, nowhere near as expensive, and the new Conn valves are actually really great.
Software Developer/Educator
JP Rath 236 - XT L101 C+/AS
Bach LT16M - XT L101 C+/D3
Bach 36BO - XT L101 E/E4
Edwards T396 - XT L101 F+/G8
Courtois 502 - LB L114 L/L8
CalgaryTbone
Posts: 1049
Joined: Thu May 10, 2018 1:39 pm

Re: Rath Large Bores

Post by CalgaryTbone »

I tried some Raths at Dillon Music in NJ several years ago. I really loved one that they told me was Michael Powell's basic model - red bell, bronze slide, rotax valve. It was very much like a great 88H. Both Powell and Rojak are playing Rath's in the American Brass Quintet (or at least were playing them last i heard).

Jim Scott
JoeAumann
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:51 am

Re: Rath Large Bores

Post by JoeAumann »

Rath makes excellent instruments. They have as many options as boutique US makers. You can get one setup to be "like" a variety of makes of horns, not just the 88h like people are indicating above. That is to say they have yellow brass bells too, and even nickel silver. So for example, if you wanted one to be like a Bach, I'm sure they could get you towards that end of the spectrum, but I don't believe they make one-piece bells- the chief feature of Bach instruments.
User avatar
Mv2541
Posts: 557
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:07 am
Location: New Jersey

Re: Rath Large Bores

Post by Mv2541 »

JoeAumann wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 1:25 am Rath makes excellent instruments. They have as many options as boutique US makers. You can get one setup to be "like" a variety of makes of horns, not just the 88h like people are indicating above. That is to say they have yellow brass bells too, and even nickel silver. So for example, if you wanted one to be like a Bach, I'm sure they could get you towards that end of the spectrum, but I don't believe they make one-piece bells- the chief feature of Bach instruments.
Even with a yellow bell and wide slide, the Raths don't really feel or sound at all like a Bach. Also the breadth of their offerings is really not as wide as Shires, which can get you pretty deep in any direction.
Software Developer/Educator
JP Rath 236 - XT L101 C+/AS
Bach LT16M - XT L101 C+/D3
Bach 36BO - XT L101 E/E4
Edwards T396 - XT L101 F+/G8
Courtois 502 - LB L114 L/L8
bbocaner
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:14 pm
Location: Fairfax Station, VA

Re: Rath Large Bores

Post by bbocaner »

I ignored Rath for years because every one I tried didn't really feel like me. Finally I visited their workshop in Huddersfield (mainly for the tour!) and was fitted to an instrument I really liked. The more I played that instrument the more I appreciated it! More than I have experienced with Edwards or Shires, the change out of one seemingly insignificant component like the tuning slide or leadpipe can really transform a Rath. And now a couple of years later I have switched out most of my stable for Raths! I have always played wide slides before but so far I have not found a combination including the Rath wide slide that I like. Their standard bells are a little bit on the heavy side, the 650 and 550 bells really come alive for me. Mv2541 is right that Rath does not offer as many options as most of the other modular makers, but they are worth a look. They are really beautifully made instruments.
bbocaner
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:14 pm
Location: Fairfax Station, VA

Re: Rath Large Bores

Post by bbocaner »

You might also look into the new R6 model which has a newly designed valve made especially for Rath, a more conventional tuning slide with a brace, and apparently a different design slide crook. My understanding is it was made to appeal more to symphony players. I haven't tried one yet.
User avatar
deanmccarty
Posts: 178
Joined: Tue May 01, 2018 10:20 am
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: Rath Large Bores

Post by deanmccarty »

My R4F was my first Rath instrument. I had searched for years for the large bore tenor that really worked for me. I had Bach, Conn, Getzen, Courtois, Edwards, Shires, XO Brass... none of them really gave me What I was looking for... until Mick convinced me to try his horn. It’s fantastic... I’ve had no problems blending with others. And it has a phenomenal timbre. Mine has a nickel bell, red brass slide and tuning slide, and a heavyweight Hagmann valve. I’ve paired it with an Elliott 100G mouthpiece. This was my first Rath... now I own 5. They are the best instruments I’ve ever played on.
Dean McCarty
“Have a good time... all the time.” - Viv Savage, Spinal Tap :cool:

Rath R9D-Ferguson-L
Jürgen Voigt 189-FX, Elliott 100G8
Rath R10-Elliott 95B
Jürgen Voigt J-711 Alto-Elliott 95B
Jürgen Voigt J-470 Contra-Ferguson 2A
Fidbone
Posts: 259
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:14 am
Location: UK

Re: Rath Large Bores

Post by Fidbone »

:biggrin:
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Crazy4Tbone86
Posts: 1353
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:52 am

Re: Rath Large Bores

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 »

Hmmm?!? Not seeing much on the Internet about the new R6F model. I will definitely be interested to see and play them in the next couple of years.

I agree with mv2541 on a couple things concerning Raths:

1. I did prefer the wider slide crook option, but I have always preferred the Bach-style slide. It makes sense that Rath sells more of the standard "narrow" slide. Every time I have been in England, I see a lot more Conn players that Bach players. The narrow slide seems to fit the British market. Any musicians from Great Britain....please correct me if I am mistaken.

2. I did not like the sound I was hearing myself produce with a Rath R4F in an open room. When I stood about 10 feet away from the corner of a room and played directly toward the corner, I realized that the sound is much better out there on the audience side. Rath .547 bore trombones are definitely contenders in the symphonic market.
Brian D. Hinkley - Player, Teacher, Technician and Trombone Enthusiast
Fidbone
Posts: 259
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:14 am
Location: UK

Re: Rath Large Bores

Post by Fidbone »

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:34 pm Hmmm?!? Not seeing much on the Internet about the new R6F model. I will definitely be interested to see and play them in the next couple of years.

That's because there isn't much on the internet about the new R6F model.

Still early days, I've tested it and can say it will be a big seller........ Loved it :biggrin:
User avatar
SwissTbone
Posts: 993
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:40 pm
Contact:

Re: Rath Large Bores

Post by SwissTbone »

Fidbone wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:52 pm
Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:34 pm Hmmm?!? Not seeing much on the Internet about the new R6F model. I will definitely be interested to see and play them in the next couple of years.

That's because there isn't much on the internet about the new R6F model.

Still early days, I've tested it and can say it will be a big seller........ Loved it :biggrin:
So tell us more. How are they different from the R4F's?
ƒƒ---------------------------------------------------ƒƒ
Like trombones? Head over to https://swisstbone.com/ to see some great vintage and custom horns!
Fidbone
Posts: 259
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:14 am
Location: UK

Re: Rath Large Bores

Post by Fidbone »

Michael Rath has been developing the new R6 large bore (.547”) Bb/F trombone over the last two years. He set out with the concept of designing an instrument that meets the needs of the modern player and one that enhances the successful range of Rath trombones.
The R6 is the first model to feature the new Rath designed valve and is made by a local engineering company here in Yorkshire (UK). Due to the unique way that the valve is machined the bore of the tubing is perfect throughout ensuring uninterrupted air flow and secure partials through all registers.
The instrument has been developed with single radius bows on the hand slide, F tuning and main tuning slide bows. Single radius bows allow for a more consistent transition through the dynamic range giving more control to the player and provides a more open feel and sound.
The main tuning slide features a newly designed large taper and breaks with Rath tradition with a single fixed brace between the tuning slide legs instead of the classic ‘R’. The brace gives the instrument a more traditional look but also increases response and the new taper gives a very rich and full sound.
Michael has always worked closely with his team of technicians to ensure the quality, consistency and to develop new techniques in the manufacturing process. Recently he has developed new tooling to create a more rounded rim profile on the bells. This new shape has increased the feedback to the player without compromising projection and will be used on all new Rath Trombones including the new R6.
Michael Rath is very proud to launch the R6 which is very much a product of his decades of experience working with the world’s top players and his passion for crafting instruments of the highest quality.
ericcheng2005

Re: Rath Large Bores

Post by ericcheng2005 »

Fidbone wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:08 pm Michael Rath has been developing the new R6 large bore (.547”) Bb/F trombone over the last two years. He set out with the concept of designing an instrument that meets the needs of the modern player and one that enhances the successful range of Rath trombones.
The R6 is the first model to feature the new Rath designed valve and is made by a local engineering company here in Yorkshire (UK). Due to the unique way that the valve is machined the bore of the tubing is perfect throughout ensuring uninterrupted air flow and secure partials through all registers.
The instrument has been developed with single radius bows on the hand slide, F tuning and main tuning slide bows. Single radius bows allow for a more consistent transition through the dynamic range giving more control to the player and provides a more open feel and sound.
The main tuning slide features a newly designed large taper and breaks with Rath tradition with a single fixed brace between the tuning slide legs instead of the classic ‘R’. The brace gives the instrument a more traditional look but also increases response and the new taper gives a very rich and full sound.
Michael has always worked closely with his team of technicians to ensure the quality, consistency and to develop new techniques in the manufacturing process. Recently he has developed new tooling to create a more rounded rim profile on the bells. This new shape has increased the feedback to the player without compromising projection and will be used on all new Rath Trombones including the new R6.
Michael Rath is very proud to launch the R6 which is very much a product of his decades of experience working with the world’s top players and his passion for crafting instruments of the highest quality.
Single radius bows with a tuning slide brace.....was he aiming to target the American symphonic market by any chance?
FOSSIL
Posts: 685
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:41 am

Re: Rath Large Bores

Post by FOSSIL »

ericcheng2005 wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:21 pm
Fidbone wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:08 pm Michael Rath has been developing the new R6 large bore (.547”) Bb/F trombone over the last two years. He set out with the concept of designing an instrument that meets the needs of the modern player and one that enhances the successful range of Rath trombones.
The R6 is the first model to feature the new Rath designed valve and is made by a local engineering company here in Yorkshire (UK). Due to the unique way that the valve is machined the bore of the tubing is perfect throughout ensuring uninterrupted air flow and secure partials through all registers.
The instrument has been developed with single radius bows on the hand slide, F tuning and main tuning slide bows. Single radius bows allow for a more consistent transition through the dynamic range giving more control to the player and provides a more open feel and sound.
The main tuning slide features a newly designed large taper and breaks with Rath tradition with a single fixed brace between the tuning slide legs instead of the classic ‘R’. The brace gives the instrument a more traditional look but also increases response and the new taper gives a very rich and full sound.
Michael has always worked closely with his team of technicians to ensure the quality, consistency and to develop new techniques in the manufacturing process. Recently he has developed new tooling to create a more rounded rim profile on the bells. This new shape has increased the feedback to the player without compromising projection and will be used on all new Rath Trombones including the new R6.
Michael Rath is very proud to launch the R6 which is very much a product of his decades of experience working with the world’s top players and his passion for crafting instruments of the highest quality.
Single radius bows with a tuning slide brace.....was he aiming to target the American symphonic market by any chance?
Nah....he'll sell it to anyone....

Chris
Fidbone
Posts: 259
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:14 am
Location: UK

Re: Rath Large Bores

Post by Fidbone »

FOSSIL wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:37 pm
ericcheng2005 wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:21 pm

Single radius bows with a tuning slide brace.....was he aiming to target the American symphonic market by any chance?
Nah....he'll sell it to anyone....

Chris
Chris is right :biggrin: :wink:
The R6F is just another great instrument added to the current list of options, just a bit different....... It's aimed at the whole world LOL :biggrin: :clever: ........... Peace :hi:
bbocaner
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:14 pm
Location: Fairfax Station, VA

Re: Rath Large Bores

Post by bbocaner »

I notice from Rath's various social media postings the R6 doesn't get the 'F' suffix on it like the R3F and R4F do. I suspect the R6, like the R9, is just assumed to have the valve; so it doesn't get F'd. Tim @ Rath told me the R6 parts are compatible with the R4/R3 parts so that opens up a lot of exciting cross-pollination opportunities as well.
User avatar
hyperbolica
Posts: 2792
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:31 am

Re: Rath Large Bores

Post by hyperbolica »

Mv2541 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:54 pm ...I think the Shires with an axial was right for me at that stage of development. If your ideal setup is something like mine you can save alot of money and just get an 88H. Not as pretty and not as easy to play, but also not as sterile, nowhere near as expensive, and the new Conn valves are actually really great.
Your choice of words is very interesting. It sounds to me like you were calling the Shires sterile. Maybe I got that wrong. But that was also my impression and the reason I never bought a Shires (aside from the MD+). To me they felt so geared toward symphonic playing that they seemed a little robotic, and lacked a personal flavor. ...not that there's anything wrong with that, of course...

I did come across a Rath that I really liked at the ATW one year, with specs identical to what someone else mentioned. R3 with nickel silver bell, red or reddish elsewhere (TS and main slide outers). I think the barrier there was price. If I come across one of those used, I think that's really my horn. That combination appeals to a combination of traits that I liked from vintage Conns. The bell of the 48h, overall size of the 79h, and from a tradition that revered the 88h.
User avatar
Trav1s
Posts: 390
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:06 am
Location: Central Ohio

Re: Rath Large Bores

Post by Trav1s »

The Rath stuff I have tried was great but the combo that just spoke to me was an R3F with the nickel bell, yellow slide, red turning slide, and the Rotax. Everything I love about my 79H and some additional zip and presence. Dillon's wrote down the specs for me somewhere...

If I had spent time to create the R4F version I am sure it would have been great too. I'd love a Rath but the cost of admission is far beyond my budget nor can I justify such a nice horn to sit around.
Travis B.
Trombone player since 1986 and Conn-vert since 2006
1961 24H - LT101/C+/D2
1969 79H - LT102/D/D4
1972 80H - Unicorn
Benge 165F LT102/F+/G8
User avatar
Mv2541
Posts: 557
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:07 am
Location: New Jersey

Re: Rath Large Bores

Post by Mv2541 »

hyperbolica wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:32 am
Mv2541 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:54 pm ...I think the Shires with an axial was right for me at that stage of development. If your ideal setup is something like mine you can save alot of money and just get an 88H. Not as pretty and not as easy to play, but also not as sterile, nowhere near as expensive, and the new Conn valves are actually really great.
Your choice of words is very interesting. It sounds to me like you were calling the Shires sterile. Maybe I got that wrong. But that was also my impression and the reason I never bought a Shires (aside from the MD+). To me they felt so geared toward symphonic playing that they seemed a little robotic, and lacked a personal flavor. ...not that there's anything wrong with that, of course...

I did come across a Rath that I really liked at the ATW one year, with specs identical to what someone else mentioned. R3 with nickel silver bell, red or reddish elsewhere (TS and main slide outers). I think the barrier there was price. If I come across one of those used, I think that's really my horn. That combination appeals to a combination of traits that I liked from vintage Conns. The bell of the 48h, overall size of the 79h, and from a tradition that revered the 88h.
I actually just meant that if your preferred Rath setup is like mine was, you can save money and get an 88h instead. The Rath plays like a great Elkhart 88 in alot of ways, but you trade having a really consistent in tune horn for the rich interesting sound of a great 88. The Shires are a little sterile too I guess, but again the benefit is that they play so well in tune and even.
Software Developer/Educator
JP Rath 236 - XT L101 C+/AS
Bach LT16M - XT L101 C+/D3
Bach 36BO - XT L101 E/E4
Edwards T396 - XT L101 F+/G8
Courtois 502 - LB L114 L/L8
bbocaner
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:14 pm
Location: Fairfax Station, VA

Re: Rath Large Bores

Post by bbocaner »

hyperbolica wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:32 am I did come across a Rath that I really liked at the ATW one year, with specs identical to what someone else mentioned. R3 with nickel silver bell, red or reddish elsewhere (TS and main slide outers). I think the barrier there was price. If I come across one of those used, I think that's really my horn. That combination appeals to a combination of traits that I liked from vintage Conns. The bell of the 48h, overall size of the 79h, and from a tradition that revered the 88h.
Rath doesn't make a red brass handslide, but they do make a bronze handslide which looks a lot like red brass. I checked with them because often manufacturers will erroneously call red brass 'bronze,' but rath's bronze is actually bronze with tin in it.

My main R4F is similar: nickel-silver bell (I got the screw-bell option, too), bronze handslide, red brass tuning slide, and a hagmann. It's a really beautiful setup with four different alloys, but the combination really works as far as playing, too! Perhaps a tad on the bright side, but not much, and so consistent at various dynamic levels.

When I bought an R3F, the same configuration didn't click for me. It was good, but it didn't pop. I found that the yellow brass R3 bell with a rotax and a yellow brass handslide worked unbelievably well for me. It also needed the gold brass tuning slide. The red brass or yellow brass tuning slides ruined it! I compared it to a bunch of very good Bach 36s and it blew all of them away.
Fidbone
Posts: 259
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:14 am
Location: UK

Re: Rath Large Bores

Post by Fidbone »

The beauty of choice and the chance to change parts means that "most" folk will find a combination they will love, but one needs time and patience.
Something like a standard 88H is a combination of parts that "generally" work well and that's why they've been popular for many years.
Choosing a combination of parts can be more tricky and you really have to know what you are after.
My R4F was a replacement for my 88H and as my .547 is not my main horn I chose something that was more or less identical to my 88H which ended up playing better than my 88H and is mechanically better with no quirks.
My combination is Red brass 550 bell - Bronze slide - yellow tuning slide - Rotax valve.
User avatar
Mv2541
Posts: 557
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:07 am
Location: New Jersey

Re: Rath Large Bores

Post by Mv2541 »

bbocaner wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 12:10 pm My main R4F is similar: nickel-silver bell (I got the screw-bell option, too), bronze handslide, red brass tuning slide, and a hagmann. It's a really beautiful setup with four different alloys, but the combination really works as far as playing, too! Perhaps a tad on the bright side, but not much, and so consistent at various dynamic levels.
This combo is really ridiculous! If I had infinite money I would take an R3 like this with a Rotax and a 31AL leadpipe.
Software Developer/Educator
JP Rath 236 - XT L101 C+/AS
Bach LT16M - XT L101 C+/D3
Bach 36BO - XT L101 E/E4
Edwards T396 - XT L101 F+/G8
Courtois 502 - LB L114 L/L8
User avatar
deanmccarty
Posts: 178
Joined: Tue May 01, 2018 10:20 am
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: Rath Large Bores

Post by deanmccarty »

Mv2541 wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:03 am
bbocaner wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 12:10 pm My main R4F is similar: nickel-silver bell (I got the screw-bell option, too), bronze handslide, red brass tuning slide, and a hagmann. It's a really beautiful setup with four different alloys, but the combination really works as far as playing, too! Perhaps a tad on the bright side, but not much, and so consistent at various dynamic levels.
This combo is really ridiculous! If I had infinite money I would take an R3 like this with a Rotax and a 31AL leadpipe.
I have the exact same setup on my R4F. It is unbelievable. My R3F has a nickel bell, a yellow tuning slide, a yellow slide, and a Rotax valve. It is a great solo instrument, chamber horn, and a great salsa trombone. It still has some of the warm characteristics of my R4F, but can brighten up a bit for a Latin dance gig.
Dean McCarty
“Have a good time... all the time.” - Viv Savage, Spinal Tap :cool:

Rath R9D-Ferguson-L
Jürgen Voigt 189-FX, Elliott 100G8
Rath R10-Elliott 95B
Jürgen Voigt J-711 Alto-Elliott 95B
Jürgen Voigt J-470 Contra-Ferguson 2A
Model34
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:30 pm

Re: Rath Large Bores

Post by Model34 »

I had a straight R3 with NS bell, bronze slide, YB crook, red tuning. That setup has a super clear and clean tone. It was very responsive, and had an incredible dynamIc range.
bassbone1993
Posts: 79
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2023 12:01 am

Re: Rath Large Bores

Post by bassbone1993 »

For those of you mentioning your R4's did you decide to go with their standard slide or their wide slide?
Post Reply

Return to “Instruments”