I wish I liked axials...

[Amconk]

I really do. I’ve thought they were neat ever since I first saw one years ago. Awesome concept, cool design, and looked oh so fancy. Yet I’ve never met one yet that I could get along with. My biggest issue is the long throw. It disrupts my playing, especially in anything quick. After hours of trying, I just never adapted to it. Put me on a good quick rotor, and I’m gold.

I’m currently playing a shires setup with a standard rotor, and I’m curious whether I’d like a tru-bore. Is it a short throw? Similar in feel to a rotor or more open? I’m always desirous of fancy designs...

[Matt K]

You'd probably hate a tru-bore. There is a lot more resistance (meaning the mechanism to actuate it, not as far as airflow is concerned) than on a Thayer, or at least there was on the ones that I had/tried. I played on one for the better part of... I want to say about 3 years. It is a pretty short throw though. As far as how it feels to play, it kind of splits the difference between a Thayer and a Rotor in my experience, where rotors are a little easier to articulate and thayers have a little bit of a broader sound. I tend to prefer rotors myself.

The Lindberg's that I've tried, granting that its' been awhile since I last played one and I've never owned one, have an exceedingly short throw and not much resistance but getting one might be not so easy. I believe Hagmanns are also pretty short throw and not too much effort to actuate.

[Burgerbob]

If you like the standard rotor, stick with it.

[tbonesullivan]

If you like the standard rotor, stick with it.

+1 If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Nothing wrong with liking standard rotors. Shires makes quite nice ones.

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

I’m in the same boat. Was never a big fan of axial valves. I had an Edwards bass with dual Thayer’s and it felt like I was fighting the horn to make it work for me.

[harrisonreed]

The more I think about the title of this thread, the more confusing it is. "I wish I like Axials, but in the end I don't"

Lol, Ok, next slide!

Oh, I almost missed it at the end!

"Maybe I would like Tru-Bores more"

You might. I've tried one. It was just OK. You should definitely try one too!

[Amconk]

That being said, I had a hagmann early on in college. I loved it. Unfortunately someone stole the horn from me and it was never recovered. Since I started playing shires, I have stuck with standard rotor since they didn’t offer a Hagmann.

[Kevbach33]

I've tried one axial flow valve instrument, a Getzen 3062AF bass. It wasn't for me, and it didn't have as much to do with playability as comfort. The valves dug into my neck, and i don't have that big of a neck (17-17 1/2, and i may have been a 16 at the time), so that was kind of a shock for me.

This sounds odd, but i actually preferred a Bach 50K3 (yep, the K valves) over the Getzen. It wasn't uncomfortable by bass bone standards, didn't dig into my neck, and was a decent player. However, it definitely leaned orchestral, as Bach basses tend to do, and I'm a commercial bass guy, so there weren't ~$3800 worth of reasons to switch from my Besson. Now if it were a gold/rose brass bell... Maybe.

Perhaps i could play an axial tenor if the sound jives with what's in my head (not like I'm playing classical music at this time), and assuming it doesn't dig into my neck. Not so a bass due to that reason alone.

If the opportunity presents itself I'd like to try some other valves besides rotors. But I won't complain if i find a traditional rotary valve (or 2) superior for my playing.

[BurckhardtS]

I actually prefer axials, but my first big botique horn was a Edwards Alessi with a rotor. I really liked it, and the quick throw was convenient. The adjustment to the axial on my Shires took some getting used to, but I was able to adapt to it after some time, and the sound I gained in the low register (and that stuff in the staff) was well worth the trade off. I want to get my lever adjusted at some point, because it's not in the most comfortable position for my hand. I know more than a few people who have had that done who said that made the biggest difference, no matter the valve.

[hyperbolica]

I've played axials and understand the allure, but I just can't warm up to them. When I flirted with Shires, I selected the Dual Bore, which is a small rotor. I think the weight more than anything was what drove that.

Hagmans are nice playing valves, but when it comes down to living with it, I always revert to rotors. Even my Kanstul bass has the larger CR rotors.
For the first 15 years of my playing life I played an 88h, which I'm sure helped solidify my choice. Plus the fact that Thayers didn't hit the scene until I was pretty well entrenched.

Lots of great playing has been and continues to be done on rotors. Nothing wrong with the design. French horns and tubas rely on them more than we do with few complaints. It's odd that the other valve types haven't converted tubists, only trombonist.

[tbonesullivan]

I would say that owning two Kanstul CR equipped horns, and my Yamaha bass, pretty much convinced me that rotors were for me. I love my Bach 42T, but I think when the valve goes, it may get a standard rotor put on, or maybe something like a meinlschmidt radial flow.

[FeelMyRath]

I hate axials, fine with standard rotors, love my Hagmann.

[marccromme]

Its as much the horn and layout of the wraps as the valve. I have a not so good playing sovereign tenor with a splendid hagmann, and a superb playing Conn 112 h with sublime hagmanns.. and a fine Yamaha with standard rotors, another one with a lovely Bousfield rotor. A king 7 b with rotors,but a pretty open wrap, a tremendous good kruspe with standard rotors, also open wrap.

To conclude, its more the combination of things than this or that valve which makes a trombone sing, even in the valve register.

[mrdeacon]

The TruBores are weird. You either love them or they're mehh.

The two things I didn't like about them are they are very heavy and the ergos on the bass ones are trash. At least for my small hands. I had to have a tech make a new F lever for me to even play the thing. I really feel like they cut some corners designing the triggers and wraps on the bass model... weird squared-off tubing and stuff like that. I'm just being picky here because their Axial and rotor wraps are so great.

They blow incredibly open and just depending on how you are as a player you may or may not like this.

I know I'm being a little down on them but they really are great valves. In particular they seem to work really well on certain tenor setups. The throw is fairly short but again... I felt like the ergos on the F lever were trash so it sort of negates that.

[TheBoneRanger]

As a lifelong axial player, I’ve found myself moving away from them in the last few years.

Mind you, unlike the OP, the throw never bothered me. It’s just a matter of coordination and timing.

Andrew

[brassmedic]

I have adjusted my Thayers to have a shorter throw. But still I think they are less forgiving than standard rotors; your timing has to be right on. I guess it depends how you view the valve. If you desire to use the valve as a means for all sorts of pyrotechnics on the horn, you probably won't like Thayers - they definitely aren't nimble. If you use the valve primarily as a means to extend the low range and avoid the most awkward slide shifts at the bottom of the staff, then you're more likely to prefer them.

[WGWTR180]

I liked them for about 14 years. Then I didn't.

[Adampreav]

Cl valves or Hagmanns are way better they got a short throw and zero resistance

[harrisonreed]

"I changed as soon as XYZ switched from Axials to rotaxes. Suddenly the trombone is SO different."

-anonymous trombonist (lots of them)

[ericcheng2005]

"I changed as soon as XYZ switched from Axials to rotaxes. Suddenly the trombone is SO different."

-anonymous trombonist (lots of them)

Didn't Alessi say in the T396 video that he switched from Thayers to rotaxes and that he likes the resistance?

[harrisonreed]

"I changed as soon as XYZ switched from Axials to rotaxes. Suddenly the trombone is SO different."

-anonymous trombonist (lots of them)

Didn't Alessi say in the T396 video that he switched from Thayers to rotaxes and that he likes the resistance?

I'm not saying that he is the XYZ that I'm talking about... But it is a coincidence that when he played Axials, every young "legit" player wanted Axials. Now it's very in vogue to play rotors, and maybe oversized rotors. Coincidentally this happened around the time xyz stopped using axials.

I think what a lot of players forget is that a horn is not just its valve, or what the bell is made out of. It's a system.

I played the old Alessi setup, with an axial, when I lived in Korea. It was a GREAT horn. I played and still play the CL2000 version of an 88H "thin bell". It's a GREAT horn. I was blown away by the Toby Oft 350-HB, with an axial. So AWESOME. I play my 3BF with a tiny rotor on it, every day. It's a GREAT horn. I play my T-396A, with a rotax, every day. It's the most BALANCED, easy to play trombone I've ever tried. I play my 36H alto, with a french horn rotor (I think?) Nearly every day. Granted, I did shorten the bell section on this horn to fix the partials, but it is perfectly balanced with the valve and plays beautifully. A GREAT horn.

Do you see where I'm going with this? Stock horns or horns designed/set-up by a leading pro are usually really good designs, and maybe you might need to learn to play them, but once you do, they're the best.

I've tried many horns set-up by my colleagues with trubores and axials, and I've only been really impressed once!

Perhaps the axials or trubores make a larger margin for error. Maybe they help cover up sub par fundamentals, because they're so easy to push on to get results. I've noticed this too, and it's not a bad thing. They're just a tiny piece of the puzzle, however. The valve doesn't make the horn.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

The OP said the dislike for thayers was all based on “the throw.” The first responder advised that “the resistance of the spring lever” of a tru-bore was very strong.

Folks, these are all things that can be adjusted by a technician. If you are not playing a particular valve because of “the distance of the throw” or “the resistance of the spring lever,” you are denying yourself the opportunity to really give some equipment a fair chance.

First of all, the strength of a spring lever can be adjusted many ways: strength of the spring, stretching the spring, putting the anchor part of the spring in a different hole to adjust tension. If your lever does not have multiple holes to adjust the tension, additional holes can be drilled in the lever to give you flexibility. Simply put, the tension of a lever spring is VERY adjustable.

The distance of the the throw can also be adjusted......it’s all about adjusting the lengths on either side of the saddle that houses the hinge. There are essentially two ways this can be done: 1. Shorten the distance of the rod that extends forward (side that the thumb touches), or 2. Increase the length of the back rod (the side that is near the valve’s stop arm). I have made both of these adjustments on many horns that have come into my shop (usually just one or the other, rarely both adjustments on the same horn). Shortening the front rod works great for people with small hands. Making the back rod longer is great for the person who likes the position of the lever but wants a shorter throw.

One time, just for the fun of it, I increased the back rod on a standard Bach 42 traditional rotor by about 5 inches (I had to add a very long rod to the stop arm as well) and connected the two with a ball and nylon socket set up. Yes, it looked ridiculous and it would never fit in a normal case or gig bag. However, the throw of the valve was reduced to less than 1/16 of an inch!

Folks, you should never avoid playing an instrument because “the throw” is too long or the “spring is too strong.” Just find a decent technician who can make the mechanics of the instrument work to your liking.

[BillO]

I picked up a horn with a Thayer about 2 years ago. I hated the valve at first because of the throw but kept playing the instrument for it's overall playability and response (especially down low - it can move things). Now I don't even think about the valve. I still have 3 horns with rotor valves and they do feel different, but it's not a big deal. You get used to it (at least i did).