TromboneChat

Title sez it all.

What horns won't yo be caught dead with!


For me, anything Jupiter. I'd play a Bundy before a Jupiter.

Never say never.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:38 pm Never say never.

What he said. But I can say with most certainty I’d never buy some opulently expensive horns like a Thein contrabass or something funky like a Schagerl Ganschhorn. Mainly because I don’t need them.

But would I buy any variation of a horn I’d use that’s different than what I’m playing right now? Maybe. Probably.

There are some I’m definitely not interested in because of their fame for being bad. Like The Dude Getzen made in the 60’s or something. And others because, while I like them, I can’t make them work. Like a Conn 44H. I played a really perfect example a few years ago that was the silkiest, richest, darkest sounding small bore I’ve ever played. But it got buried by strong trumpets and saxes and didn’t blend with brassy trombones at all. Maybe in an intimate combo setting, but I don’t do that much.

Anything by Sierman.

I said I would never buy a cheap Chinese student horn, but ended up buying one. However, I paid only $20 for a horn that needed $150 in repairs and would be worth less then that when done. For my $20 I now have a usable soft case, another unbranded mouthpiece, a new supply of Superslick, and a floor lamp.

Cleveland, Bundy, Olds Ambassador, Pan American, any Czech trombone, any trombone made in India.

Any Olds. I've had a P24G and a trigger Recording. Both were in great condition; both were beautiful horns. Great slides. Both were unplayably flat, Flat, FLAT. Tuning slide all the way in. Still flat.

I tried different mouthpieces including Olds. Real Olds pieces were tiny compared others, and still flat. Tried shaving down shanks. Flat. Could never play anything with any ensemble. Splatty tone, bass and Recording.

Flimsy bendable levers on the bass, with painful cramp-inducing ergonomics. Thumb trigger was like pressing a spoon. The Recording had that slow, reach-around-the-brace trigger.

Case on both horns were sturdy wood steamer trunks that weighed about 3000 lbs each.

I like the horns I have now.
Hey, you asked.
John Thompson
YSL 646
Conn 60H

Having found equipment that works really well for me, I don't I'll be buying anything that isn't a 1for1 replacement or slide replacement in the future (except for the Shires alto...). But... What will I never buy... Let's say if nothing changes from the current state of affairs:

First and foremost, anything from BAC. Nope! Their newest "artist" model horn that they are working on? Whaa?? Will it make me sound like an autotuned can of tuna? Multitracked? No thanks...

Any of the square bow, crazy narrow Bach small bores. Good lord, how do people play those things?

A Bach alto.

I'll never pony up for a Thein. Good or not

Probably never buy a Shires tenor. I've played lots of them. Haven't found one that spoke to me. Sad, because the slides are so good. Their altos are a different story. Definitely will buy one some day. I'm holding out for them to release the bell tuning version that they just prototyped, so I can do a shootout and walk away with the best one.

Any soprano or piccolo or contrabass trombone.

A valve trombone or superbone.

Now, I did say if nothing changes. There may be some real breakthrough tech that is developed in the future that we all might be basically forced into getting. Like the F attachment was. Except lots of people still are holding out even on that one. So probably not. It's just a trombone, and they don't really change all that much...

The ones I can't afford.

Other than cheap horns already mentioned that goes without saying, mine would be the standard BO series of Bach.

Don’t get me wrong. I don’t like them not because of their sound nor playability, the ones I have test-played sound great in their own ways. The thing that I don’t like is the “far open” wrap of these horns. Harder to pull (I got used to using the main tuning slide as the anchor point for my hand to push out the F slide), and also easier to get dents because the F branch sticks too far back.

Nothing specific. BUT:

The whole category of horns that can be characterized as: Undesirable, Overpriced, and Probably-Stolen Horns for Sale on Craigslist.

You all know what I'm talking about... Abilene student horns, Mendinis bought by people undergoing a quarter-life crisis, Bundys that have led a long and unhappy life, ect. There's always that joker who wants 2K for their "vintage" Bach 36B that looks like it went through the spin cycle.

JUNK.

Easy. Bach 42. Tried a few, they just don't do it for me - I think it's that bass crook and wide slide.

Also, anything with a Thayer valve.

Ha ha! I play a Bach 42 with a Thayer valve, and I have never played a Rath that I liked.

Blessing, Lawler and BAC.

Andre1966tr wrote: ↑Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:38 am Blessing, Lawler and BAC.

Ok I have to respond to this one.

What's up with Lawler? Do you just not like the horns or do you have beef with the company?

I understand BAC but I've never heard anything but praise about Lawler.

Sad to hear that , Mike makes some terrific instruments I have a custom 6 that is phenomenal

Also have a lawler 3 that’s incredible , those are 2 great craftsmen to be firmly against one of their horns ..

- any Bb bass with a main slide bore greater than 565
- any tenor with a main slide bore less than 485
- any Thein (just due to price and pretentiousness)
- any Monette
- any modular (the temptation to meddle would just be too great for me to bear)
- anything very rare or strictly collectible (the likelihood of being disappointed is way too high)
- anything too beautiful to play (what's the point)

I don’t know if I would buy a fully BAC trombone. My experience with them has been either side work ( which was very good ), restoration ( again very good ), and modification ( which was a long process talking about how to achieve what I wanted and updates along the way that ended up being exactly what I wanted ). I haven’t had that eye opening moment with a full BAC horn like I have with one of mine they modified or restored. I won’t deny that people have butted heads with them, but I only speak for myself.

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:46 pm Title sez it all.

What horns won't yo be caught dead with!


For me, anything Jupiter. I'd play a Bundy before a Jupiter.

Have you ever played either of the Jupiter XO horns, their professional line of instruments? They're pretty darn good.

I visited the BAC at TMEA a few days ago, and as always, they're doing innovative things with their instruments, experimenting with various materials, even bi-metallic bells, using both traditional and artistic designs. Their custom stuff is pretty good, and the slides are great. I know they've had some customer service issues in the past that I've read on this forum, but I have much respect for Mike Corrigan - his vision, work ethic, and what he's trying to do for the music scene.

Taking a bit from hyperbolica:
- any Bb bass with a main slide bore greater than 565
- any tenor with a main slide bore less than 485
- any Thein/Latsch (just due to price)
- anything from Sierman, I'm disappointed in a company that steals from hard working individuals
- any instrument with a set back bell, throws me off too much
- TIS small bore tenors
- Any Eb 3 valve instruments, unless it's to add a 4th valve or do some sort of frankentuba thing
- most, if not all valve trombones, I might get ONE for the brookmeyer/tizol feel

My first trombone was a Blessing Scholastic, worst horn I can imagine...
BAC: I don´t like the design, especially the Mason horn
Lawler? I don´t like screw bells

Not a dispassionate evaluation.... I know

As a collector I have made a choice not to buy horns marketed as student horns unless they for some reason are well regarded buy enough professionals and therefore could be considered to be as good as horns marketed as professional horns On my student trombone exception list are Kanstul 760, Yamaha YSL-321, YSL-322, YSL-354, YSL-356G and YSL-356R. All other student horns by Conn, Bach and others are out of interest, but never say never From the exception list I own four out of six.

/Tom

imsevimse wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:17 am ...All other student horns by Conn, Bach and others are out of interest, but never say never ....

/Tom

I love all those Yamahas but I wouldn't overlook the venerable King 606.
Sure its a little heavy and maybe not as refined as a 354 , but compared to a Director or Bach 301, its at least a step or two above. I played one all through college in all settings and it never let me down (so yes, I am biased. )
I would not really consider it a collectable type horn though if that's your thing.
But not bad to mess around on for a while and then flip to a student for a reasonable price.
Also, don't forget about the Tempo 1305. Basically an "intermediate" 2B. It might be a keeper.
(Kinda like a Mustang 5.0 LX vs GT in the late 80's )

Late Boosey and Hawkes.

Either a Bach 42B or a Bach 36B.

johnjenkins wrote: ↑Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:47 pm I visited the BAC at TMEA a few days ago, and as always, they're doing innovative things with their instruments, experimenting with various materials, even bi-metallic bells, using both traditional and artistic designs. Their custom stuff is pretty good, and the slides are great. I know they've had some customer service issues in the past that I've read on this forum, but I have much respect for Mike Corrigan - his vision, work ethic, and what he's trying to do for the music scene.

Bi-metallic bells are nothing new. Neither are wooden bells. Frank Holton did experiments with all different types of bell materials. Also I find their "innovative" designs to simply look "unfinished", "industrial", or maybe even "steampunk".

FeelMyRath wrote: ↑Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:30 am Easy. Bach 42. Tried a few, they just don't do it for me - I think it's that bass crook and wide slide.

Also, anything with a Thayer valve.

I feel like Bach is one of those manufactures that either works brilliantly for the player or not at all, everyone I've personally talked to has been so divisive on them.

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:24 am

johnjenkins wrote: ↑Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:47 pm I visited the BAC at TMEA a few days ago, and as always, they're doing innovative things with their instruments, experimenting with various materials, even bi-metallic bells, using both traditional and artistic designs. Their custom stuff is pretty good, and the slides are great. I know they've had some customer service issues in the past that I've read on this forum, but I have much respect for Mike Corrigan - his vision, work ethic, and what he's trying to do for the music scene.

Bi-metallic bells are nothing new. Neither are wooden bells. Frank Holton did experiments with all different types of bell materials. Also I find their "innovative" designs to simply look "unfinished", "industrial", or maybe even "steampunk".

I understand that isn't anything new, but not many are doing it now. As to your stated preference/opinions, "different strokes for different folks."

Aesthetics matter, for certain, but I'd argue that function matters more.

LongNeckedAnimal wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:37 am

FeelMyRath wrote: ↑Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:30 am Easy. Bach 42. Tried a few, they just don't do it for me - I think it's that bass crook and wide slide.

Also, anything with a Thayer valve.

I feel like Bach is one of those manufactures that either works brilliantly for the player or not at all, everyone I've personally talked to has been so divisive on them.

See, that's odd to me, because Conn has so many more features that make them more of a challenge for a lot of players.

First and foremost, the narrow slide. Affects a number of things ergonomically, especially for larger players, reduces the choice in valves, etc. Then there's the unsoldered bead wire, which requires the player to be more consistent in how he attacks notes (I'm unclear as to whether or not recent Conns maintain this build choice), and of course the use of red brass which many people feel changes more than yellow or gold brass as the dynamic at which they're playing changes.

And, if you're discussing vintage instruments, there's always the question of the Remington-taper mouthpiece receiver.

All in all, I would have expected Bach to be the less divisive choice.

That said, I'm not likely to ever own one. I'm happy with my current large tenor, I went through all of high school and college on an 88H, and my trombone instructor (with whom I started studying AFTER having bought the 88H) spent several minutes griping each lesson about how he wished I had bought a 42B instead.

Intermediate horns.

There’s no point to the marketing, but if it’s JUST marketing and not the build quality also then id be happy to try it out. If it fits it ships... I’ve played a King Tempo that was really great and it seemed built just as nicely as my 2B. I have a bashed Cleveland Superior that seems the same, but I can’t tell because if its condition. Newer intermediate horns are just student horns that cost more. My Yamaha AD200 or whatever is pretty much a 354 labeled differently, but that’s a good thing. Those horns rip

FullPedalTrombonist wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:34 pm My Yamaha AD200 or whatever is pretty much a 354 labeled differently, but that’s a good thing. Those horns rip

A 200 is just a 354 that's made in China, right? Otherwise size specs are the same?
I've been trying to pickup a really cheap 354 just for the inner slide. I have one of those 80's era 354's with the slide plating chipped off. Unfortunately for me, 354's still go for way to much money used and 200's are not far behind.

Vegastokc wrote: ↑Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:23 am

FullPedalTrombonist wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:34 pm My Yamaha AD200 or whatever is pretty much a 354 labeled differently, but that’s a good thing. Those horns rip

A 200 is just a 354 that's made in China, right? Otherwise size specs are the same?
I've been trying to pickup a really cheap 354 just for the inner slide. I have one of those 80's era 354's with the slide plating chipped off. Unfortunately for me, 354's still go for way to much money used and 200's are not far behind.

I think so. I’ll have to look at what it says on the slide. The lacquer colour is different; more gold than yellow. But it plays exactly like the newer 354’s I know. I think they hold value because they’re like a Toyota or Honda daily driver. Exciting enough, too reliable, tons of them out there, though.

Yep, Hondas are always just out of my price range too.
Although I am perfectly satisfied with more affordable Mazda I bought instead.
So that begs the question - what is the Mazda of the trombone brands?

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:24 am

johnjenkins wrote: ↑Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:47 pm I visited the BAC at TMEA a few days ago, and as always, they're doing innovative things with their instruments, experimenting with various materials, even bi-metallic bells, using both traditional and artistic designs. Their custom stuff is pretty good, and the slides are great. I know they've had some customer service issues in the past that I've read on this forum, but I have much respect for Mike Corrigan - his vision, work ethic, and what he's trying to do for the music scene.

Bi-metallic bells are nothing new. Neither are wooden bells. Frank Holton did experiments with all different types of bell materials. Also I find their "innovative" designs to simply look "unfinished", "industrial", or maybe even "steampunk".

I take it back. I'd play a Yamaha before I'd play a BAC (Big and Crappy) chopshop horn. Nothing they do is innovative or original. Their designs seem to cater to young hipster players with no taste or sense.

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:52 pm I take it back. I'd play a Yamaha before I'd play a BAC (Big and Crappy) chopshop horn. Nothing they do is innovative or original. Their designs seem to cater to young hipster players with no taste or sense.

I played a BAC Custom smallbore probably 15 years ago at Dillon Music that was on sale, used, for the then-ridiculous price of about $3000.

Even at that price point, I could have been tempted to pull the trigger if I had the disposable income at that point. Open blowing, extremely ergonomically comfortable, even across the range, good sound (as far as I could tell in a room with a bunch of brass instruments hanging on hooks on the wall), fantastic slide.

Mike Corrigan knows how to make great trombones, and is about the nicest guy you could ever hope to meet.

As to the aesthetic elements of a lot of his current lineup? They're not to my taste, to put it mildly. But I wouldn't write off the whole range based on (admittedly, the majority of the things that bear his brand) a couple of instruments designed for pros who are looking for a trademark look to a new horn and some samey Chinese copies of other trombones. I would be very tempted to try out any subdued-aesthetic horn I came across with his name on the bell.

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:52 pm

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:24 am Bi-metallic bells are nothing new. Neither are wooden bells. Frank Holton did experiments with all different types of bell materials. Also I find their "innovative" designs to simply look "unfinished", "industrial", or maybe even "steampunk".

I take it back. I'd play a Yamaha before I'd play a BAC (Big and Crappy) chopshop horn. Nothing they do is innovative or original. Their designs seem to cater to young hipster players with no taste or sense.

If you take the approach I did with having BAC modify a horn it’s a much more pleasurable item to look at IMHO. Their outlandish designs are about as polarizing as trombone design gets and not exactly my taste either.

I play in big bands a lot. I’m in a section behind a row of saxes on a dark stage behind dancers or a beautiful vocalist. No one is looking at my horn anyway. I play it because it plays well for me and with a band. Admittedly what was done to my horn was all my design and only carried out by people who could do the work, but would probably blend into a line up at NAMM or a FB gallery.

Their normal looking horns play well enough to put them in the running with Lawler, Shires, Rath, and any other well regarded makers if I were to be in the market again.

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:46 pm Title sez it all.

What horns won't yo be caught dead with!


For me, anything Jupiter. I'd play a Bundy before a Jupiter.

You may consider trying them again. They've grown leaps and bounds in the last decade. I tried an F att. Jupiter that was retailing for $1600. it was BETTER than the Bach 42, which retailed for a $1000 more (I tried them both in the store). This was back in 2015.

imsevimse wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:17 am As a collector I have made a choice not to buy horns marketed as student horns unless they for some reason are well regarded buy enough professionals and therefore could be considered to be as good as horns marketed as professional horns On my student trombone exception list are Kanstul 760, Yamaha YSL-321, YSL-322, YSL-354, YSL-356G and YSL-356R. All other student horns by Conn, Bach and others are out of interest, but never say never From the exception list I own four out of six.

/Tom

I just passed on a YSL-321 because it needed more work than I could do myself (slide end smooshed, cracked, leaking) and they still wanted $99 despite that unplayable flaw.

Also passed on the vintage Besson and the Cleveland 605. Both were not worth the effort even if they'd been free.

I bought two Olds Ambassadors they had, the 1962 in near-perfect condition, just needs a good cleaning and the water key fixed. Came with the original Olds 3 mouthpiece. I took the 1948 Olds as a project horn - needs new waterkey, and the counterweight is missing, with a nasty JB weld-style patch job where it used to be attached. Included the original case and Olds 3 mouthpiece as well. The lacquer is rough as well. Again, I think I'll use it to test my abilities to make something usable. These two horns will provide plenty of entertainment for me for the $90 I paid for the pair. I may have overpaid, but time will tell. I usually have people who need to borrow a horn and aren't too picky.

brasslizard wrote: ↑Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:20 pm Also passed on the vintage Besson and the Cleveland 605. Both were not worth the effort even if they'd been free.

I don't know what vintage Besson student horns might be good for, but I'm sure that they could be good for something. Heavy gauge metal and a tighter than average slide bore (Somewhere around .480 straight bore) are specs that you don't run across terribly frequently these days. Perhaps good for accompanying heavily amplified music in a place where they don't want to run a PA?

JBone wrote: ↑Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:21 pm

brasslizard wrote: ↑Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:20 pm Also passed on the vintage Besson and the Cleveland 605. Both were not worth the effort even if they'd been free.

I don't know what vintage Besson student horns might be good for, but I'm sure that they could be good for something. Heavy gauge metal and a tighter than average slide bore (Somewhere around .480 straight bore) are specs that you don't run across terribly frequently these days. Perhaps good for accompanying heavily amplified music in a place where they don't want to run a PA?

One of the reasons I love the Olds Super I landed on after trying many. Not only can I slice through a band without a mic I can keep the same clarity at mp. If a Besson came up for free and it worked in the same fashion I’d clean it and stash it as a backup backup backup

FullPedalTrombonist wrote: ↑Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:47 pm

JBone wrote: ↑Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:21 pm


I don't know what vintage Besson student horns might be good for, but I'm sure that they could be good for something. Heavy gauge metal and a tighter than average slide bore (Somewhere around .480 straight bore) are specs that you don't run across terribly frequently these days. Perhaps good for accompanying heavily amplified music in a place where they don't want to run a PA?

One of the reasons I love the Olds Super I landed on after trying many. Not only can I slice through a band without a mic I can keep the same clarity at mp. If a Besson came up for free and it worked in the same fashion I’d clean it and stash it as a backup backup backup

Since they weren't free, they didn't come home with me. The Besson was in incredibly rough shape, with cracks, red rot, massive denting... I was able to align the slide, but I'm not up to Extreme Patching - there's a reality show I'd watch... Today, on Extreme... Tom tackles a student Besson trombone. Can it be salvaged? Will it be relegated to repair apprentices to abuse? Find out... on Extreme Brass Repair...

I just passed on a YSL-321 because it needed more work than I could do myself (slide end smooshed, cracked, leaking) and they still wanted $99 despite that unplayable flaw.

Assuming that's all that is wrong with it, that's a steal. Yamaha sells end crooks for a very reasonable price. Even if you went ahead and did a full slide alignment and cleaning you're at less than $400 for a decent single plug bass.

Any Edwards.

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:19 amAny Edwards.

Any particular reason? I'm interested to hear your feedback.

I traded a pbone for the horn I’d never buy, a Conn Director. I will Buy a 605 Cleveland before I buy the Director.

Fruitysloth wrote: ↑Fri Mar 13, 2020 9:25 pm

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:19 amAny Edwards.

Any particular reason? I'm interested to hear your feedback.

Sure! Well for one I cannot achieve the sound I hear in my head. Many will say you eventually can but that's not been my experience. I'm also not into Thayer valves. The Rotax valve sections I'm sure play nicely but I cannot stand the design on the inline sections. I tried a Jim Markey horn @ Dillon Music last year and , for me, was a poor fit.
So while good for most of the free trombone world not a good match for me. For reference my instruments are as follows: 2 Holton TR 180 bass trombones and a lovely Corp Bach 50.

I repaired, modified, and built musical instruments for 40 years. I would never buy a Holton brasswind. IMHO, poor design and poor execution. Having said that, Holton/LeBlanc have some pretty damn good woodwinds!

bigbandbone wrote: ↑Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:05 pm I repaired, modified, and built musical instruments for 40 years. I would never buy a Holton brasswind. IMHO, poor design and poor execution. Having said that, Holton/LeBlanc have some pretty damn good woodwinds!

Do you mean a Holton Bass trombone(brass wind)?? Yes there were some quirks and some inconsistencies during construction but there are some great instruments out there. I have 2 of them. I know another bass trombonist in New York who has several. You have to search.

Some are ridiculously good. If I could have convinced a friend to sell his 9.5” bell TR180 I’d jump at it.