Looking for King Cleveland Superior Model info

[Cymrych79]

Hi all, this is my first post here on these forums.

I'm a returning player, having stepped away from regular playing after my first semester of college. Sad to say, that was 20 years ago. I never meant to stay away so long, but life, it seems, kind of got in the way.

My stepson, a junior high school French horn player, has really taken to music and band in a big way, and has inspired me to get my trombone out and get back in the groove. We've played a few simple duets together, which has been great fun while I regain my chops, and there are one or two local brass ensembles I could probably sit in on when I'm not out of town for work.

I'm currently playing on a 1950-55 King Cleveland, which I played through most of my high school career in every band possible; marching, concert, jazz, brass, etc. A student-grade horn, of course, but don't knock it too hard! Back then, I could regularly hit high D (with good intonation) and the high F on a good day but less confidently ... and that was while I still wore braces!

Anyhow, I'm planned on sending out my slide for service soon (purely for sentimental reasons. I know full well my Cleveland is only worth *maybe* the cost of the slide service itself, lol). To avoid any interruptions in my practicing, I've been looking around for a decent condition 2nd horn to hold me over. At a local used/vintage instrument shop in Oklahoma City, after musing over a couple of King 2Bs (I've always wanted a WWII-era 2B. Could never afford one back in the day, but now that I can, I just can't bring myself to pull that trigger after only a few months back on the horn), I saw they had a really nice King Cleveland "Superior Model".

Does anyone know anything about this "Superior Model" Cleveland? I hadn't even known of this Superior version of my King Cleveland until I saw this horn, and unfortunately my web search skills have not filled in many blanks, except that perhaps this model began production ca 1960. A serial number search also left me scratching my head, as the serial started with a "C", then 6 numbers (I think. Sadly, I didn't think to jot the serial down.) The serial number lists at HN White didn't seem to indicate any such serial numbers starting with a letter, so I'm not even sure how old this horn might be. And what, pray tell, makes it Superior to the standard King Celevand? How do they differ?

Anyhow, it's still just a student horn with about an 8/10 or so slide (but still much cleaner and less scuffed and worn than my 1955 King Celevand with its 5-6/10 slide), but as a backup for practice it'll fit my needs nicely, I think. I just wish I could find out more about it!

[dxhall]

I’m not sure I agree with your reasoning. The purchase of a horn like a WWII King 2B isn’t an expense — it’s money put into a non producing capital asset. If the horn you buy is a desirable one, and you pay market price for it, you should be able to sell it for what you paid for it. What you need to do is to balance the enjoyment you would get from owning the horn against the non-recoverable transaction costs (shipping costs, in this situation) you would incur in buying and selling it.

I’m sure I could sell my mint ‘45 King 2B for the $800 I paid for it. In the meantime, I get to work on my Tommy Dorsey imitation. To me, the enjoyment of playing the horn far exceeds the cost of buying and selling it. And no, it isn’t for sale and no, I still can’t play “I’m Getting Sentimental Over You” like Dorsey.

[Cymrych79]

Oh, don't get me wrong. If I find a 2B I decent condition for $800, I'll be all over it. Have one lined up that I might be about to get for about that, actually. I don't think She Who Shall Not Be Angered would like me to spend $1500-$2000 on a 2B, which seems to be where most of the really good condition horns lie. The Cleveland Superior might be a decent low-cost alternative if some of my plays for a 2B don't pan out. Nothings in stone and I'm not married to any decision yet, except to send my old Cleveland slide out for servicing.

[Vegastokc]

You're probably going to get quite a few responses to this thread.
(Maybe members Kingfan or BGuttman will weigh in - they have deeper knowledge on Kings)
I am also a big fan of Kings and am in possession of a WWII era 2B (not for sale of course) that is in need of restoration but is still playable.
Best I can tell, Superior was just part of the name to make the Cleveland model seem cooler.

Your story is very similar to mine. In fact, I am sure many on this forum have the same story.
I totally relate to wanting to restore your horn just for sentimental reasons even though you could easily find another affordable older Cleveland or King 606 to purchase on this forum, ebay, craigslist , etc.

Might I suggest picking up an F attachment as your next horn?
If you're stuck on King, then a King 607/608 or if budget allows a King 3B/F.
I never owned a trigger horn "back in the day" but when I returned to playing last year I picked one up on ebay for cheap and found the versatility a welcome addition.
You can always buy your "dream horn" later on down the road as you keep playing more.
If you're in OK City, then I assume your dealing with Horn Trader who usually has plenty of choices in stock.
Either way, happy hunting.

[Kingfan]

I remember that the King Cleveland I got in 6th grade back in the 60s had the "Superior" name on it. I think it is just a fancy name tacked onto the student horn. My King brochure from the early 70s had the Cleveland with the same bore and bell size as the 2B.

I play in a community band where we have a lot of players coming back after 20 or 30 years. Welcome back, brother! Great hobby that you can do almost forever - a buddy of mine played until he was in his mid 90s.

[Cymrych79]

Thanks fellas, good to know the Superior model is basically just a marketing thing for the King joint venture with Cleveland to produce student band horns. The one I tinkered with in OKC (yes indeed, at Horn Traders) looked exactly the same as my 55 Cleveland, just with Superior in the engraving. Of course, I couldn't compare the bore sizes, and figured if there was any difference it might be there. But it sounds like not.

Since Vegastokc here, and another forum user via email, called me out on being near Oklahoma City, I maybe should have mentioned in my first post that I actually live in northern Kentucky across the Ohio River from Cincinnati and am down this way for a few months of work. I'm an archaeologist and am on the road on field projects roughly 8-10 months out of the year. As you can imagine, my work is not exactly conducive to joining an ensemble if they have anything like regular practices; I'd barely ever be able to make it. But, such is life.

Vegastokc - You mentioned looking into F attachment horns... It's interesting, back when I was being taught, no one had a trigger horn. If I remember correctly, in my senior year one of the younger guys in my section bought a bass trombone that had a trigger, but that was it. Even the local universities seemed to have mostly straight trombones in their concert bands. But at my step son's recent concert at Morehead State University (an auditioned Tri-State clinic and concert for 7th/8th graders) I think that EVERY trombone I saw was a trigger horn. And that was roughly 35 trombonists, spread over the 5 bands they assembled for the day. Not a single straight trombone.

I'm assuming F attachment trombones were already well established in professional circles, but probably not many manufacturers made them for the student or intermediate horns back in the 80s-90s? I wonder what changed? Cost of the rotor and extra tubing coming down? Competition from Asian horn manufacturers? Or was the push from the other direction, from school band directors wanting to get their kids onto intermediate or professional level horns earlier?

I must admit my ignorance here. I know the trigger allows for some alternate positions and a bit of an extension to the lower range. But does it make a that much of a difference in one's playing? I mean, sure, its gotta reduce some arm fatigue, and less slide movement means a faster transition between tones. I don't know, maybe I'm just being a luddite, but one of the things about the trombone that really appealed to me, from even before day 1 in 4th grade, was the simplicity of the design. The F attachment spoils that a bit, I think. But I'll freely admit, I'm just talking out of my rear here; I imagine once I get a chance to test drive a trigger horn, I'm sure I'll like it just fine and quickly adapt to the new possibilities.

Anyhow, sorry for my musings. And thanks again for the info and words of wisdom!

[Kingfan]

I got my first F attachment horn in 1972 or 1973 while in high school, a King 4B large bore symphonic style tenor. The F trigger sure helps when doing fast runs that include 6th position. That, and I could reach the Eb, D, Db, C, and with a pulled F tuning slide low B natural below the staff just like a bass. I have straight small bores in my arsenal plus a small bore with an F attachment, but these days I use the pro level straight horns only when playing lead tbone in a big band and my trusty King Cleveland on those few occasions that call for marching. Plus, on a cramped stage, not having to go out to 6th/7th position helps prevent damage to the slide and/or my mouth from hitting the sax players in front of me. They have hard heads . All that said, there is no right answer for everybody. I play a Bach 5 or its equivalent playing lead on my 2B and 3B in big bands whe most players are on smaller mouthpieces; it ain't for most, but it works for me. The right horn for you is what you feel is right for you. A Yamaha YSL-354 is a very good straight student horn you can get relatively cheap (I see some nice samples for $300, more or less) that punches well above its weight. If you can nab one of those, you can have a lot of fun and then get an F attachment horn later if you want. Or not!

[Cymrych79]

Interesting. I'll have to bug my old band teacher (who's now well past retirement age but still going strong) when I get to PA for Christmas, see if he'll let me in to demo a school-owned F attachment horn.

But, that's something for another day .... one of my leads on a 2B worked out. Should arrive end of next week, hopefully. Pictures looked solid with no major flaws except around one dent repair on the tuning slide, clean inner tubes with all the chrome intact, matching serial numbers throughout putting it as a 39/40 horn. Which is great, I like the big, elaborate engraving the pre-war 2Bs had versus the post-war, more minimalist engraving. Seller had other instruments listed, but I doubt he's a trombonist, so I'm taking a bit of a gamble on his statement that the slide "works very well". But he clearly did his homework and displayed all the pics very much as HNWhite.com does; close-ups of both sides of the bell, close-ups of both sides and end view of the tuning slide area, and close ups of both sides of inner and outer slides, etc.. Based on those photos, I see nothing obvious suggesting a sick slide, but of course, how much can you really tell from a picture? Besides, non-trombonists tend to evaluate slides as better than they really are, or at least that's always been my perception, so I'll take "works very well" with a grain of salt. I'll just have to wait and see. Fortunately, I had already budgeted for sending a slide out for service; if the 2B's slide is not up to snuff, I can always send that out before I send in my King Cleveland slide. But, fingers crossed, it won't be an issue.

[Kingfan]

Sounds you got what you wanted. Good for you! I agree about the engraving - my 60s era 2B has much more elaborate engraving than my 70s horn.

[dxhall]

Good for you. My ‘45 2B is a joy to play. When it gets up past the first D above the staff, the notes have a sort of singing quality that my other vintage horns don’t produce. When I hear it I always think of those film clips of Dorsey casually walking up to the bandstand after the band has begun playing, picking up his 2B from the horn stand, and playing “Sentimental” as though it was the easiest thing in the world. Enjoy.

[Kingfan]

Good for you. My ‘45 2B is a joy to play. When it gets up past the first D above the staff, the notes have a sort of singing quality that my other vintage horns don’t produce. When I hear it I always think of those film clips of Dorsey casually walking up to the bandstand after the band has begun playing, picking up his 2B from the horn stand, and playing “Sentimental” as though it was the easiest thing in the world. Enjoy.

I looked for a transcription of the original solo. It's in three sharps, and goes up to a high C# an octave and half a step above middle C. Yikes!

[BGuttman]

Actually it's in two sharps. The original "stock" came with double sided parts; one side in concert Bb and one side in concert D.

The D version sounds a bit happier and the Bb version more elegiac. I wonder if TD opened with the D version and closed with the Bb.