How should one choose a new instrument?

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AEK
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How should one choose a new instrument?

Post by AEK »

Hello,
I know we are all different but in general how should we trombonists choose/pick a good instrument?
In my experience up to now, I suggest to start from choosing a lead pipe first.

What is your approach, suggestions and experience about choosing a good player instrument?
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Re: How should one choose a new instrument?

Post by Bonearzt »

First off, decide what your current set up is not doing for you.

IMHO, a leadpipe by itself will really prove nothing without the rest of the horn to interact with!


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BGuttman
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Re: How should one choose a new instrument?

Post by BGuttman »

This is a difficult thing to describe.

Firstly, the trombone is more than the sum of its parts. A leadpipe that works well in one instrument may not be optimal on another. Also, the player is a big component as well.

Traditionally we would just keep trying combinations until something "rings the bell". That is how the "fittings" at the various boutique shops work. Generally someone with a lot of knowledge of the effects of the various components facilitates the journey through the combinations.

Easily the worst way to buy is because [insert Trombone God here] plays one. If it works for you, great. But don't assume because the God plays it, you will sound like him.

If I have an instrument that is in need of change, I'd probably start at the mouthpiece. It's a lot less expensive. Next might bethe leadpipe if it is interchangeable. If not, look to a full horn change.

Of course there is the zero-level choice of what size to buy. A bass trombone makes little sense if you play high parts and an alto won't work well as the bottom voice.
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Re: How should one choose a new instrument?

Post by tbonesullivan »

Best way: face time. You really aren't going to know until you plug into it. I have two main tenor mouthpieces, a Hammond 11ML and a Laskey 59MD. I generally would try both of those. As others have stated, a leadpipe by itself really isn't going to help much. I don't think I would gain anything by just plugging a mouthpiece into a leadpipe and making noise with it.

If I'm looking for an "off the shelf" horn, I would go somewhere with a lot of them, and play them.

If I wanted a custom modular horn, I'd contact Edwards / Shires / Rath and start a conversation. Getting "fitted" for a trombone would really be the best way to get a good result.
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Re: How should one choose a new instrument?

Post by harrisonreed »

AEK wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:10 am Hello,
I know we are all different but in general how should we trombonists choose/pick a good instrument?
In my experience up to now, I suggest to start from choosing a lead pipe first.

What is your approach, suggestions and experience about choosing a good player instrument?
I think that the leadpipe is the last thing you tweak, if it's even an option. If you don't like a horn with the stock pipe, or "2" pipe in it, you probably won't like the horn with a leadpipe you picked out before hand. Might not even like it with the interchangeable pipes that the maker might have.
Last edited by harrisonreed on Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How should one choose a new instrument?

Post by timbone »

Sound. Sound..........sound........you get the sound you are looking for because of feel......feel.....feel translates to how secure it is going from 1-5-8-5-1. Those are the notes that will tell you how well a lead pipe is functioning, use the KISS method. If for some reason those notes are fuzzy or 'wooly", move on, your test is over. F in the staff is one of the hardest notes to get right. If it is good, chances are the rest of the notes are there too; after you go through 1-5-8-5-1, play your favorite notes and see where they are. Yea you can play all the notes the hot shots play.....f above high c, high eb in second, etc. I always say if the F in the staff does not center, it is like stumbling out the front door of the house - you have to basically go through that F (or go back by) that note to get to everything on the horn. You don't have time to "prepare" to play an F because the note doesn't work..... One last - please don't believe an interchangeable lead pipe will fix any problem. You may get lucky but chances are......BE open to mouthpiece change, whether the horn has an interchangeable pipe or not. The relationship of mouthpiece/instrument is a most important one- don't assume your mouthpiece is right and the horn is wrong- common mistake. Again, what sound are you after????
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Re: How should one choose a new instrument?

Post by Burgerbob »

Leadpipes match to a slide, which matches to a horn. I have some leadpipes I like that don't match any of my current horns. And I quite like those horns!

I don't think there's really a science to this. Too many variables to consider. Play everything, keep what you like.
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Matt K
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Re: How should one choose a new instrument?

Post by Matt K »

I usually play it in the context that I'd use it in. E.g. for a commercial horn, I'll bring it to say a big band rehearsal and see if it works better for me than what I was using before. Or if the horns are different but I like one aspect of a horn and think that with a modification I can get something better than both as they are at that time, I'll do that.
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Re: How should one choose a new instrument?

Post by Mikebmiller »

I start with the rubber bumper, then work my way up to the spit valve.

Truth be told, I have bought many instruments sight unseen. Some worked out great and others got resold prett fast. For my current stable of a Lawler and a Rath, I was able to do some pretty extensive play tests and they have been the best horns I ever owned. I don’t see any reason not to play either of them until either they die or I do.
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Re: How should one choose a new instrument?

Post by harrisonreed »

That's another thing for me, I've never bought a modular horn or a horn with different leadpipes (well....my 88H can take different pipes, but why am I going to use the R pipe?). My 88H, 3BF-SS, 36H (I did cut down the tuning slide on this horn) and 396-A are all stock, fixed horns and they all play so well. That's because the designers of these horns knew what they were doing, and in all cases except for possibly the 3B had some major heavy hitter players involved in the design. All I know about 3Bs is that they are near perfect all rounders, especially with the F attachment, and JJ played the crap out of some 3Bs. I believe the used 3BF is the most recommended horn here on this forum. I tried some of the new ones at ATW last year, and they play just as well, but have way better slides. So there's one way to pick a horn -- buy a 3BF.

The 88H was championed by Remington, and I know he had a hand in its design. Add in the Lindberg valve, and you've got yourself a really fine large bore horn. As far as picking out an 88H, the only thing I'd be concerned with is finding one that is put together properly, like the Eastlake ones were. My two Conns still have the best slides of any horns I've played. Again, this is a design that the boutique companies have taken as a base and tried to improve upon. It's not easy to do! So, if you want to pick out a good horn, here is tip #2 -- test out a bunch of 88Hs, and find one that really rings. Or buy a refurbed Sawday 88 from brass ark. Be happy. The stock S pipe is the right pipe for an 88H. Where leadpipes come into play is when you get yourself an 88H based horn from a modular horn shop, and you start changing up bell materials or slide materials, etc -- you might need that leadpipe change to dial it back in. The whole thing is a system. And don't forget! The intonation wonkyness is by design on the 88H -- play long on the slide, even on a Bb!

The 36H was a tough one. I really wanted to change the leadpipe badly on that horn. Mouthpieces don't quite fit correctly in it, and it just seemed to have really wonky intonation. I asked the original designer about what was up with this horn. Basically, he said that he worked with Christian Lindberg on the final design, and that the leadpipe was correct. No matter how badly I thought a different pipes would improve the horn it'd be a mistake. What was interesting to me was that the design had deviated at some point from the original. The first decade or so of production had shorter horns overall and a longer Bb valve section. Why did they lengthen the horn and shorten the Bb valve? People don't like playing long on the slide! Duh! So, shortening the tuning slide and pulling the Bb attachment is what it takes to get an alto that now plays like it was supposed to and it's amazing. Where is the tip here? Tip #3 - you might think a horn is terrible and a bad design, but that might just mean you don't know how it is supposed to be played. Lots of small bores give you space for slide vibrato in 1st (like the 3B!). If you don't know this, you tune your Bb to the bumpers and are left wondering why the horn is out of tune with itself.

The 396-A! Another horn designed in conjunction with a monster player! And you don't get to change the leadpipe. Tip #4 - if you want a large bore tenor, buy this fixed horn from Edwards. Or, if you maybe prefer 88Hs, buy the Getzen Bousfield model. You can change out pillars to your heart's content, and slowly you will gravitate towards only one or no pillars, because again, the stock horn was designed right in the first place.

This is not to say I haven't played completely modular horns. I have played the whole gamut of Edwards and Shires setups. Here's the thing! They all play really well. With all that choice out there, these makers don't really change the basic ingredients. Edwards all play and feel like Edwards, and likewise with shires. Sure the feel changes from setup to setup. And as exciting as leadpipes are, the "1" and "3" pipes in all these setups seem to get relegated to permanent storage. That's just how it is. Maybe the special 1.5 and 2.5 pipes everyone has in their signatures here are super special, but I bet that they aren't all that much different from the "2".

So ... How do you actually pick a horn? Don't stress about gear. What can you afford that you sound great on? What is fun to play? Whatever the most fun horn it's it's probably the one that will inspire you to practice. That's the best one.
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Re: How should one choose a new instrument?

Post by Bach5G »

I think Harrison has pretty much nailed it.
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Re: How should one choose a new instrument?

Post by hyperbolica »

:tongue: To me it really comes down to playing a lot of instruments and being familiar with the characteristics that you like. This takes a lot of time. Remember that you need data points from historical instruments as well as new ones.

Then I try to formulate the ideal horn from all the options, and compare those to horns that actually exist.

Your ideal horn is probably not on a shelf or in a catalog somewhere. It may not even exist. And you might have to factor in cost, as well.

Plus, there are different purposes for different horns. You might need more than one.
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Re: How should one choose a new instrument?

Post by Doubler »

timbone wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:31 pm Sound. Sound..........sound........you get the sound you are looking for because of feel......feel.....feel translates to how secure it is going from 1-5-8-5-1. Those are the notes that will tell you how well a lead pipe is functioning, use the KISS method. If for some reason those notes are fuzzy or 'wooly", move on, your test is over. F in the staff is one of the hardest notes to get right. If it is good, chances are the rest of the notes are there too; after you go through 1-5-8-5-1, play your favorite notes and see where they are. Yea you can play all the notes the hot shots play.....f above high c, high eb in second, etc. I always say if the F in the staff does not center, it is like stumbling out the front door of the house - you have to basically go through that F (or go back by) that note to get to everything on the horn. You don't have time to "prepare" to play an F because the note doesn't work..... One last - please don't believe an interchangeable lead pipe will fix any problem. You may get lucky but chances are......BE open to mouthpiece change, whether the horn has an interchangeable pipe or not. The relationship of mouthpiece/instrument is a most important one- don't assume your mouthpiece is right and the horn is wrong- common mistake. Again, what sound are you after????
Great advice! :good:
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Re: How should one choose a new instrument?

Post by 2bobone »

OMG ! How much easier it was when you simply purchased an instrument, took it home with great anticipation and practiced on it until YOU won the battle ! I fondly recall one of my teachers saying, "Robert ---- the instrument can NOT change ---- YOU must change"! Today, the opposite seems to be the truth ! With the proliferation of boutique instruments, leadpipes, custom mouthpieces and every "tweak" known to man, it comes down to that "cranial computer" that we all have, to put to use in the never ending battle of extracting the sound that we are
all aware of as our ideal. Unfortunately, it is never to be realized ------ . but keep searching ----- it's out there somewhere -------- and be sure to enjoy the journey ! Cheers !!
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Re: How should one choose a new instrument?

Post by Matt K »

2bobone wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:42 pm OMG ! How much easier it was when you simply purchased an instrument, took it home with great anticipation and practiced on it until YOU won the battle ! I fondly recall one of my teachers saying, "Robert ---- the instrument can NOT change ---- YOU must change"! Today, the opposite seems to be the truth ! With the proliferation of boutique instruments, leadpipes, custom mouthpieces and every "tweak" known to man, it comes down to that "cranial computer" that we all have, to put to use in the never ending battle of extracting the sound that we are
all aware of as our ideal. Unfortunately, it is never to be realized ------ . but keep searching ----- it's out there somewhere -------- and be sure to enjoy the journey ! Cheers !!
OK, boomer :wink:
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Re: How should one choose a new instrument?

Post by hyperbolica »

Matt K wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:01 am
OK, boomer :wink:
I get that you're trying to be funny by repeating what some stupid person in the news said, but it's really uncalled for. There are some people you should keep some respect for, even though we know that PAKs have abandoned that idea.

This guy has really done what a lot of us only dream(t) of doing, and he comes here to get mocked like that. It's no surprise that real pros get chased out of here by wannabes.

2bobone is right. At the end of the day when it's you and whatever horn is in your hands, it's still only practice that is gonna get you anywhere. No cheat code, no shortcut.

Some people grew up in a time when even pros didn't have a roomful of instruments, and they paved the way for you to have fun at their expense. Have a little respect.
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Re: How should one choose a new instrument?

Post by Matt K »

It's no less respectful, but just as lighthearted, as this comment:
I fondly recall one of my teachers saying, "Robert ---- the instrument can NOT change ---- YOU must change"! Today, the opposite seems to be the truth !
"But Matt, that was obviously a tongue-in-cheek statement!" Mine was as well, and an attempt at pointing out that "OK Boomer" is an appropriate and similar response to any suggestion that the grass was greener 40 years ago. I mean, really, the opposite is true today? That people are totally resistant to changing themselves? It's a disparaging strawman for which I see no evidence. I've never met a single individual who believes that equipment can substitute for practice.
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Re: How should one choose a new instrument?

Post by harrisonreed »

That's why I suggest stock horns, especially used ones that have already held up and are known to play well. If you can't sound good on them, you gotta look to yourself.
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Re: How should one choose a new instrument?

Post by 2bobone »

I had intended to post a response to the "OK, Boomer" comment personally, but when it passed in conversation with my wife, a gentle woman with a great love for music, she suggested that I allow her to post her feelings as a response. After reading her short, heartfelt response, I didn't think I could improve on it and so it is found below :

" Nonetheless, "OK, Boomer" does not suggest the respect due to people who have spent their lives perfecting their art. The musician to whom you refer would never disparage you or your efforts. With any luck and lots of hard work you may someday perhaps approach his level, both as a musician and as a gentleman. Good luck finding the right horn to speed you on your way. In the meantime "OK boomer" has just become a household joke and the source of much merriment here, so thank you for that!"

I never meant to suggest that "In my day I had to walk a mile to school and back in all kinds of weather, hauling my euphonium and all of my books as well. " [which I did] ---- but that I wished that the resources that are available today would have been available to me when I was an aspiring brass player. I worked hard and found music to be a savior to my soul every day. I hope you will find the same comfort. Goodbye.
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Re: How should one choose a new instrument?

Post by Posaunus »

2bobone wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2019 6:33 pm I worked hard and found music to be a savior to my soul every day. I hope you will find the same comfort. Goodbye.
Bob,

Thanks for your comments, and your wife's.

Though I'm not a "Boomer" myself (barely disqualified, as I believe you are also), I was mildly irritated (though not personally offended) by the "OK, Boomer" comment. It's too easy – in fact rather flippant – to drop these trendy phrases and memes as if they mean something. They are, unfortunately, readily adopted and thrown around indiscriminately by those younger than we are. I think we older folks need to be tolerant of these practices – since I'm sure that our generation also had annoying habits.

Above all, I hope that your "Goodbye" does not mean that you will stop following – and posting on – TromboneChat. I find almost all your comments to be thoughtful, wise, knowledgeable, and helpful. I wish that we had more input from our elders on this forum. Please stay with us!
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Re: How should one choose a new instrument?

Post by hyperbolica »

Matt K wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:41 pm It's no less respectful,... blah, blah blah
You really can't defend taking such a cheap shot at a guy like that. Grow up.

It's not a generational issue, it's a maturity issue.

Personal attacks as I remember are frowned on.
Last edited by hyperbolica on Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: How should one choose a new instrument?

Post by Mikebmiller »

Who the heck is Boomer? I think she was the Korean Cylon on Battlestar Galactica.
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Re: How should one choose a new instrument?

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Bach5G
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Re: How should one choose a new instrument?

Post by Bach5G »

This thread having crashed into the ditch, I went back over recent posts.

I thought the “Boomer” response was a perfectly appropriate response to what seemed to be a “Back when I was young” post. I’m in the Cranky Old Man demographic myself.

Lighten up dudes. Please and thank you.
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Re: How should one choose a new instrument?

Post by harrisonreed »

Bach5G wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:14 am Lighten up dudes. Please and thank you.
Yes!
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