Bore size questions

[Ironman]

First time posting on TC. I have two daughters who play the trombone, and the eldest has just begun her first year of college majoring in Jazz performance. She's currently playing on a Getzen trigger horn, and her instructor suggested that she might be better served with a plain, tenor horn.

Doing a lot of reading on TC for the first time, I'm picking-up that many of you feel that "jazz horns" are usually preferred with a small bore. While she's away from home, I watching ebay and other online sources for some new tenor horns for her to play. If they don't work out... I'll just resell them.

I've already missed out on a Reynolds and a King Tempo (too busy and I missed it) and I'm currently looking an an old Holton 65. I do like the older horns... though they often do look a bit less pretty.

I just wonder what is the benefit to the smaller bore? Does it allow easier slotting of notes, or does it improve range (at the expense of slotting, probably)? It surely compromises on volume so the extra incentive must be considerable given you would have to move even more air to maintain volume.

Thank you in advance.

[Doug Elliott]

Actually it's the opposite. a smaller bore horn feels like it takes less air, and slotting is better, but mostly the sound is more appropriate for a big band section and with the trumpets and saxes.

Majoring in jazz performance? Definitely get her a good .500 or .508 bore, or maybe a .525

My preference for an inexpensive .500 bore is a Yamaha 354 which is a "student model" but actually a really decent playing horn. I would skip the ones you mentioned. You should be able to find a 354 for around $200 (maybe less), and put a little more into some slide work to get it working well.

[braymond21]

Small bore horns are definitely more popular for jazz as mentioned above, and I second the option that a Yamaha 354 is a good place to start. I currently have one for sale if you're interested

[Klimchak]

I disagree on the 354 suggestion. Yes, they are very good horns for the money and an inexpensive “jazz” horn, but if she is already in college as a jazz studies major, I would recommend a used professional model horn that could last her well through college and beyond. There are a huge number of used horns around and for decent prices. If she can, it would be best to be able to try out some of the standard companies (Bach, Conn, King, Yamaha....listed alphabetically and nowhere near an exhaustive list) to see what she is most comfortable playing. They all play differently and players tend to gravitate towards one or another. Who are some of the players she listens to? That may be at least a place to start and expand from there.

[tbonesullivan]

I would also agree on an older used Yamaha 354, one of the Made in Japan versions. They really are solid horns, as with a lot of Yamaha horns, which were really made better than student horns should be.

As Doug Elliott was Solo Jazz Trombonist with the USAF Airmen of Note, I think his opinion holds CONSIDERABLE weight.

The only real problem is that as they are "student" horns, finding one that isn't trashed on the used market can be problematic.

[Doug Elliott]

I was playing a 354 when I got into the Note and for my first year there. It is a good choice as a first jazz horn, and to have something for outdoor gigs where you don't want to risk damage to an expensive horn - that's how I use one now.

It really depends on what you can afford, as much as anything. I have paid $100 for my Yamahas. For about $1000 you can find a used or vintage pro horn - King, Conn, and many others. If you can spend $2000, the new Fedchock XO horns are excellent. Lots of good choices if money is no object.

[Lastbone]

Hey there,
If she's majoring in performance of any kind, it may be best to wait through the first semester so she gets a good idea of what she needs, then take her to Dillon Music where she can try a bunch of horns. (My dad knew thought he knew everything and chose two or three horns for me -- badly. Be careful not to make that mistake.)

[cmcslide]

Another good option would be a King 3B - with or without the F. It's a very versatile horn and can fit in a lot of playing situations (lead, section, solo). See if her teacher has any preferences or recommendations, too - the teacher's word should have a place in any decision like this.

[tbonesullivan]

See if her teacher has any preferences or recommendations, too - the teacher's word should have a place in any decision like this.

Ahh yes, I missed this one. The prof would probably have some good recommendations.

Also, to the Threadstarter, where are you currently located? There are a few brass stores with considerable inventories of used horns. If possible might be best to get your daughter to a place with a lot of horns, so she can find one that works well for her. A lot of smaller bore horns tend to have quite narrow slides, which can get in the way, depending on how the horn is held.

[Vegasbound]

Talk to her teacher, take her to visit DJ and then leave her to choose

[greenbean]

She should probably talk to the trombone faculty for their thoughts and also play the horns that her fellow students are playing. She is going to have to play a bunch of horns to learn what she really likes - one way or the other.

But more importantly... CONGRATS on having not one but TWO trombone playing daughters!

[Ironman]

Thank you greenbean. Yes, we're very proud of them both. I"m familiar with several larger instrument shops already, but I've had pretty good luck with purchasing used instruments. I do believe the first "family horn" we bought is an old Yamaha 354. It's in pretty rough shape now... and currently is in use by my middle daughter's marching band season. They march with that Yamaha and then switch to a borrowed Getzen or Conn 88H for the Wind Ensemble. We actually purchased the Getzen F-trigger and that's what's being used in the college program now... and the reason I'm now shopping for a straight tenor horn. At the same time,... I'm not in a large hurry. I realize the program just started and she will have lots of new experiences and options available to her, that is completely off our radar at present.

I'm amazed to see Mr. Doug Elliott commenting on this string! Hello!! We actually caught a live performance of the Airmen of Note about 3 years ago, and that was one of the defining moments when my eldest actually fell in love with jazz! That was a really great show!

I also appreciate Lastbone's story of his dad poorly selecting a few horns for him. I think I'll take that advice to heart, and I'll go ahead and let her and her professors guide our selection process rather than to clumsily play the role of the ever all-knowing father.

Thank you everyone! This is a really nice forum.

[Tarkus697]

If you can find one, a Selmer Bolero is another fine choice. There's a rare F-attachment one on eBay right now. I'd jump on it, but I'm saving for a Rath.

[baileyman]

Get several. Find a .490-.500 for lead, small groups, and big band 2 and 3 when in such a band the sound is important (most people don't care, but it does make a difference). A .547 because for some critics who may be judging, nothing else will do. And if her personal preference is for another size, get that, too. An all Yamaha portfolio could be under $1000. Get truly great stuff later.

[Kingfan]

I have a 1957 3B and a 3B-F and a 2B from the 70s. The 3Bs are great all around horns, but the 2B slide is lighter and faster while sounding brighter. Where is she going to school? If local, I would be willing to loan her the 2B and if she falls in love with it I might consider selling.

[bimmerman]

My Dad is also a trombone player, and bought/borrowed a few horns over the years for me to try. Some worked out, some didn't. The Yamaha suggestion is excellent though-- I had a 356R (trigger variant (ish) of the 354) and miss it frequently as a small-do-it-all horn.

My two favorite horns are still ones he bought for me way back when-- a Bach 16M from a band buddy of his (which, my lesson teacher threatened to buy if dad didn't) and an Edwards cobbled together out of spare parts he had + some from ebay. In both cases though, he ran the horn by my lesson teacher to get her input before I even knew what he was planning, and both have served me very very well for very reasonable dollars spent.

My advice then would be to have her work with her professor to figure out a good horn. Chances are good that the prof and other students have horns she can try out to figure out what does or doesn't work for her needs. Once she has an idea what she would like (Kings play and sound different than Bachs than Conns than.....), check the forums here/ebay/wherever.

[Vegastokc]

Another option for test driving might be to see what she could check out from the school.
When I was in college I borrowed a beautiful silver King 3B from the school that I had a very, very hard time returning.

[bobroden]

Tarkus697 recommended a Selmer Bolero above; I have one listed in the classified section for $600 shipped, if you're interested.

[Ironman]

Hey guys... Wanted to post a quick update on the progress of my search. The college professor DID broach the subject of purchasing a dedicated jazz horn this week (instead of the F-attachment)... he recommended any YSL-354 from ebay... and pulled one up on the computer and said "I'd just buy this one and be done".

So, he seconded what many of you here had suggested. So, after a few days searching on ebay, Craigslist and Facebook marketplace (and some other places)... I found what appears to be a very nice horn made in Japan. I won the auction tonight and paid a total of $320 with shipping from Canada (turns out the ratio of the Canadian dollar to American is VERY low right now, so buy Canadian!).

I'm very, very pleased with our "addition" to the family. Thanks for all your kind comments!

[braymond21]

Glad you found something that'll work for you! Looks like a great horn!

[Matt K]

That looks like it has a nickel slide??? Would you mind indicating what model that is? (Or perhaps it's a silver plated slide and the bell was replated?) Can't get the nickel tubes anymore, or at least in the US according to the tech I've been using to get my parts from

[tbonesullivan]

Whoa! That looks really nice!! Looks like you scored a good one! I hope it works out well!

[Doug Elliott]

I'm pretty sure the nickel outer slide is the one they sell in the rest of the world, not sold in the US.. I think it's still designated as the same number YSL-354. Congratulations!