2B sound concept, but on bass

[DrBassTrombone]

Hey guys!

Primarily a bass trombone player, but am having an active affair with my late 40s 2B.
I love the sound I'm getting on the 2B but not so much on my Xeno bass. I feel like I'm missing so many colors. Any ideas on what horns to look at that will give a similar color pallet?

Denis Wick 9BS and Griego 1, both gold plated if you think the mouthpiece thing matters.

Looking to buy in the next year or 2 so I have time to look as well.

[BGuttman]

Get rid of the bathtub mouthpiece on bass. Get something smaller and/or shallower. That should help you get the colors you think you are missing,

[DrBassTrombone]

the thing about the griego 1 is that it isn't a bathtub. its smaller than my greg black 1 1/4 even. Not sure i'd be willing to go smaller than this but worth a shot

[Burgerbob]

It's not impossible to sound great on a big mouthpiece. Look at any of the big soloists right now, including Markey, Pollard, Bond, Bollinger, Vernon, Pagano, Hawes...

I will admit, the Griego sound is a little boring to my tastes. Maybe check out Greg Black, Laskey, the other big makers that are being used at the top level.

Try other horns too, of course. The 830s I've played have all been wildly different, maybe yours is a dull one.

[brtnats]

I’ve been thinking a lot about this lately. I recently switched my “warmup horn” to my .508 tenor instead of my bass, since I’m playing a lot more jazz gigs lately and I want to really hone in on the smaller aperature size. The net result is that I’m playing my bass (822G with a Yeo mp) with a lot more finesse, color, and responsiveness that I generally have. Even the slide technique carries over. Basically, when I approach my bass like a smaller tenor, good things happen.

I’m wondering if approaching your bass with that small-tenor mindset: Ease, fluidity, color, control, small aperature, and lighter air might be a worthwhile experiment, before running off to the equipment races?

[ngrinder]

This sort of mirrors my experience with Yamaha - easy, consistent, “good” sounding instruments, but with a lack of color and tonal range.

Check out a Holton TR180/185 (there’s a pretty cheap one on eBay now) or a King Duo Gravis or 62H if you can get your hands on them. I’ve always thought the advantage of vintage horns was an access to a wider color palette, usually at the loss of consistency and ease of playability.

[Burgerbob]

I’ve been thinking a lot about this lately. I recently switched my “warmup horn” to my .508 tenor instead of my bass, since I’m playing a lot more jazz gigs lately and I want to really hone in on the smaller aperature size. The net result is that I’m playing my bass (822G with a Yeo mp) with a lot more finesse, color, and responsiveness that I generally have. Even the slide technique carries over. Basically, when I approach my bass like a smaller tenor, good things happen.

I’m wondering if approaching your bass with that small-tenor mindset: Ease, fluidity, color, control, small aperature, and lighter air might be a worthwhile experiment, before running off to the equipment races?

I've also been playing a lot of tenor (large and 3B) and I love what it has done for my bass playing. It has actually made my bass feel smaller and easier to play.

[GabrielRice]

First, I would look at the mouthpiece. That line of Griego pieces has large throats for the proportions, and they do tend to be dark above all. I don't say that to be critical - that was what people were typically looking for at the time, and Christan's designs have changed to reflect changes in aesthetic. You might try a GP. You might also try a Laskey 85MD (if you can find one - hopefully they will be produced again soon), a Shires 1-1/4MD, or a plain old Bach 1-1/4G. Or a Doug Elliott in that size range.

Second, I have also found the Yamaha 830 to vary a lot. The one I've played most recently was owned by a student of mine, and it sounded dull and felt sort of loose to play. It had sustained some damage and major repairs though.

I like vintage bass trombones too and I own two of them, but I don't play one regularly. I do think you can approach that kind of color with other contemporary designs - but only if you are clear on your sonic concept and can try a range of options. I'm very happy with the range of sounds I can get with my Shires combinations, but I've also been very impressed with M&W and Greenhoe. I haven't yet played a Rath set-up with the kind of core I want in the sound, but that doesn't mean it can't be done.

[sirisobhakya]

A fellow YBL-830 user here. Although as Burgerbob said, the 830 is quite “inconsistent” for a Yamaha, so your mileage may vary.

The followings are my opinion only, and should be taken with great care.

First: apart from being different within the same model, the 830 is also sensitive to mouthpiece change. I normally use Yeo mouthpiece in general playing, but plug in a 60B (around the same rim diameter but shallower and with tighter throat), and the horn brightens up considerably.

Second: whether or not yours are a dull-sounding one, the 830 is designed to be orchestral-biased from the start: heavy, dark(ish) with a lot of core and projection. Different concept from the start. I would not use my 830 in a jazz gig, even mine could be considered “brighter” sounding one.

Third: it is quite possible that your embouchure is more suitable for the smaller mouthpiece/horn. Conversely, you might use different embouchure between both horns, and while you change, some embouchure element from that for the 2B might interfere with that for the bass, and makes it sound even duller for a short period of time after switching. I once had that problem when I started messing around with different mouthpieces.

Finally, and this is strictly my opinion and might be very wrong: a bass will not, and should not, sound like a tenor. Yes they are both trombones, and a bass trombone should not sound tubby or hollow, rather should have core, brilliance, and bite as a trombone, but it will not have the same degree of brilliance or zip as a tenor, let alone small bore jazz horn. You can try making a bass sound lighter: small shallow mouthpiece, light gauge bell, weight reduction, etc., but the result will be a somewhat smaller bass sound with some added brilliance, still fatter and darker than a tenor sound. They are different instrument.

[bigbandbone]

Such a great thread! I've been striving for the same sound!

I started playing the 4th book in a big band on a straight small bore horn. Just covering the book for rehearsals. 30's swing doesn't require a trigger. The guys in the band loved that aggressive penetrating sound on the low stuff. I was hired to play that book! But I wanted to be able to play the trigger notes in the more modern tunes so I got a .525 bore horn. Barely passable on the trigger range, and lost just a little edge. But I compensated. Now I'm on a true .562 bore bass and the low octave is great, but I've lost a lot of edge from tuning Bb and higher.

I'll be following this thread closely! I hope there are some good insights!

[Bach5G]

I found a Hammond 20BL works well on my Yam 620G. It adds some weight to the sound but still gives me lots of flexibility and, I think, nice colour.

[Burgerbob]

Bass gives you a lot of help with the sound through the valves, depending on the valve of course. This free focus is largely gone on the open 2nd and 3rd partials (not to mention pedals). This is where many nascent and not-nascent bass trombonists, including myself, have run into trouble.

The equipment changes things, definitely. But you have to have the concept and chop ability to make that sound happen before it will come out of the horn.

I have found, relatively recently, and remembering previous posts by Gabe himself and videos by James Markey, that playing the entire horn like it is smaller- not relying on the natural focus of certain partials or notes, but making it myself with a smaller aperture, has only helped every single aspect of my playing.


Sorry for the multiple posts here... But it's something that I have really revolutionized my playing and concept with lately.

[brtnats]

It seems like so much we do on bass is physicality, where on small tenor it’s finesse. While the size of the instrument definitely makes a difference, I really think approach is more of the key. How did George Roberts play, relatively, the same size instrument as Edward Kleinhammer, and got completely different results? The approach was clearly based in finesse, vs the physicality of an orchestral approach. Bill Reichenbach is playing orchestral sized equipment now, and making that big horn drive like a small bore.

If we approach the bass like a truck, it handles like a truck. What if we approach it like a Ferrari?

[DrBassTrombone]

very happy with all these responses! maybe ill go back to trying my GB 1 1/4, even though its larger. curious as to what a denis wick 1 would feel like but now i’m just dreaming. (if anyone in the LA area has one that I can try for a couple of weeks, id be more than grateful)

[Burgerbob]

very happy with all these responses! maybe ill go back to trying my GB 1 1/4, even though its larger. curious as to what a denis wick 1 would feel like but now i’m just dreaming. (if anyone in the LA area has one that I can try for a couple of weeks, id be more than grateful)

If you're in LA, I have a bunch of stuff you can try.

[hyperbolica]

If we approach the bass like a truck, it handles like a truck. What if we approach it like a Ferrari?

The only way to do that is either massive amounts of directed practice time to build physical strength or scale down the equipment somewhat. I just don't have that kind of time to devote to bass. It's really hard to play a bass even like a big tenor in the low range. It's a great sentiment, but really hard to achieve.

[Savio]

We don't have the same anatomy, so both method and equipment should fit the player. Not an easy task to figure out alone. So a good teacher always help. There is some of them around on the site.
You already have a good sound concept. For me it's still big inspiration to listen everything I get hands on. I got Spotify, there is a lot there!
Leif

[brtnats]

The only way to do that is either massive amounts of directed practice time to build physical strength or scale down the equipment somewhat. I just don't have that kind of time to devote to bass. It's really hard to play a bass even like a big tenor in the low range. It's a great sentiment, but really hard to achieve.

I can only speak to my own experience and not yours, but since bass has been my primary instrument for several years, the strength was already there. If you’re doubling bass as your secondary, your mileage will doubtlessly vary. I haven’t changed bass mouthpieces in about 15 years, so I feel pretty comfortable on my setup.

What has changed for me is the idea that a bass always requires big huge blocks of sound. The more I got back into small tenor playing over the last 5 years, the more it’s taught me about tonal color. Those insights never really occurred to me when I played large tenor as my primary, and I often felt stuck because of it.

But small tenor? The kinds of sounds you can get out of one are nearly endless, and it’s just easier (for me) to do that. So when I take those principles back to MY bass, the same kinds of things happen. If I focus on playing with a smaller aperture, a less aggressive articulation palate, and allow myself to vary the air speed and temperature, the bass starts responding like the big tenor that it’s sometimes called to be. For the work I do, it works really well. I don’t know that strength isn’t part of the equation, because I can’t control for that variable. I CAN control my approach to the instrument.

[hyperbolica]

I've heard a couple of people play a bass bone with finesse, but really only a couple. It tends to be guys who play a lot of chamber music - small groups. The best example i know of would be Max Siegel. He's got a lot of time in the saddle, and can play with real power or however he wants, iI'm sure, but I've mostly heard him on the subtle and controlled side. I strive to play with that kind of facility and real expressiveness, although I struggle with the bass-ics, ha. But seriously it gives me something to work toward and keeps me out of blatt-land.