Small bore with red brass bells

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mcphatty00
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Small bore with red brass bells

Post by mcphatty00 »

I've seen only one of these. I play in a band and one guy has a small bore Getzen with a red brass bell. Is there any particular reason there are so few of these?
hyperbolica
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Re: Small bore with red brass bells

Post by hyperbolica »

There were some Holton configured like that and all of the Conn Coprion (10h, 12h, 18h), Getzen 3508-r, the Martin Urbie(?), the new Greenhoe GC2-R, most modular horns have a reddish option. Some Olds models have colorful bells. There are others, but you're right, they are not as popular as yellow bells.

Red bells are generally associated with a darker sound, but small bores are usually chosen for a brighter sound.
andym
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Re: Small bore with red brass bells

Post by andym »

I tried a Shires .500-.508 with a red brass bell and for me it was fantastic for art songs. Rochut …. But it didn’t feel right for me for jazz. I wound up with that same bore but a yellow brass bell. Later I sat next to a guy playing lead on the red brass bell and he sounded great playing lead on it. So just wasn’t for me.
The user formerly known as amichael on TTF.
Chatname
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Re: Small bore with red brass bells

Post by Chatname »

andym wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:55 am I tried a Shires .500-.508 with a red brass bell and for me it was fantastic for art songs. Rochut …. But it didn’t feel right for me for jazz. I wound up with that same bore but a yellow brass bell. Later I sat next to a guy playing lead on the red brass bell and he sounded great playing lead on it. So just wasn’t for me.
Yellow regular weight slide? Or nickel silver?
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Matt K
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Re: Small bore with red brass bells

Post by Matt K »

I find that the redder the material, the more color it affords, which isn't inherently a good thing. At softer dynamics, it's "darker" for me and at louder dynamics it's brighter. So for my classical horn I use a 2RVET7 which is, at the volume I typically play at, quite neutral and lets me get brighter without turning up the volume too much. Works very well for me because I typically want something that is darker at lower dynamics when playing classical. And if I want something that can play a little louder without redlining, I can switch out my leadpipe for something that takes a little more volume.

On commercial music, I often want softs to be on the brighter side as well. Yellow typically gives me more "consistency" between how much "edge" I'm getting across the dynamic spectrum.

Are my perceptions founded in science? No. And if you were to hand me the perfect commercial horn that happened to have a red bell I might honestly not be able to identify that it was the perfect horn because of my preconception. But I like to think that I wouldn't.
OneTon
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Re: Small bore with red brass bells

Post by OneTon »

Herd Mentality. I think that it is the same reason my perception sees more brass trumpets and possibly cornets in commercial or jazz settings. The King 2B is a quintessential and immensely popular horn for big band lead and more versatile than it gets credit for. Lacquered brass is cheaper than silver plating or sterling silver, and probably red bells. Dealers can acquire yellow brass horns cheaper than red bell horns and may expect the stock to turn over faster.

On the other hand, I have played Olds Supers on lead and other parts and they do just fine. I played an Olds Recording that I think would do well. There are some things that red bells do that I like better than yellow.
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ithinknot
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Re: Small bore with red brass bells

Post by ithinknot »

hyperbolica wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:22 am the Martin Urbie(?)
yellow
hyperbolica wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:22 am the new Greenhoe GC2-R
doesn't seem to exist, at least not yet

Pretty much all the significant and widely-employed designs that defined the expected sounds of C20th non-classical idioms were yellow. And that's covering a pretty wide tonal spectrum - Bach/Williams/Martin/Conn/King.

It's a reliable component of a particular musical goal... articulation quality, volume/brightness curve shape, 'projection'.

(Sure, honorable mention to King SSs, and someone's been successfully playing other stuff at every stage - Olds, of course, Bach Gs, King and Martin specials, etc. But they're all minor players, statistically.)

Obviously, when modularity came along, it was commercially desirable (and much less risky re stock) to offer more options. Also, as .547s became the pedagogical standard, some more recent small bore designs have been tailored to be more forgiving to that kind of approach. Mellowing things out (at least at lower volumes) with a bit of extra copper here and there can definitely work in that direction. Better/worse? Just different.

And then there are the material combinations that end up at a similar musical/functional destination, just with a somewhat different overtone signature. Small Raths with nickel bells, for example. The sort of stable, focused, slightly-bright-tending character that you get from yellow, just a different sheen to the finish. It's not my preference, but it's perfectly convincing in the classic musical settings.
hyperbolica
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Re: Small bore with red brass bells

Post by hyperbolica »

ithinknot wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:38 am
hyperbolica wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:22 am the Martin Urbie(?)
yellow


The Wessex "copy" has a rose bell.
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harrisonreed
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Re: Small bore with red brass bells

Post by harrisonreed »

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MrHCinDE
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Re: Small bore with red brass bells

Post by MrHCinDE »

I’ve owned a couple:

Holton 67 Stratodyne with some flavour of red/rose/gold and nickel silver slide, as far as I could tell anyway. Played huge for the dimensions it was and would have been an awesome horn for small combo playing, such a rich sound. Sadly, I don’t do much of that, not even much big band these days so sold it on to fund other purchases.

Minick 0.500” with what looks to be a rose brass bell and lightweight yellow brass slide (no oversleeves, yellow brass is my best guess) which is by far the lightest trombone I’ve ever played. It’s sort of like a scaled down, lightweight 8H if that makes sense. It’s my favourite horn for noodling around at home and works well in small groups, e.g. in a 7-piece polka band, also big band on the occasions I still play in big band. It probably gets a bit less use than my 3B/F overall. Still, every time I get it out at home I enjoy playing it.
hornbuilder
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Re: Small bore with red brass bells

Post by hornbuilder »

Materials do the same thing to sound, regardless of the size of the horn. A red brass bell will offer a more mellow, warmer sound, with a slower response compared to the equivalent yellow bell. Generally speaking, those qualities aren't really sought by jazz/commercial players, and this, red bells aren't common.
Matthew Walker
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Re: Small bore with red brass bells

Post by hornbuilder »

Having said that, there are those who like red belled, small tenors. Here is a picture of one I finished for a client a little while ago...
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Matthew Walker
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ithinknot
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Re: Small bore with red brass bells

Post by ithinknot »

hornbuilder wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:27 pm Here is a picture
Very pretty! Curiosity question: if the bell cut ends up that close to your standard 2pc joint location, why not just spin the flare separately?
hornbuilder
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Re: Small bore with red brass bells

Post by hornbuilder »

I have tried that. I didn't like the results. Having the seam on the flare ensures that the bell still has the 2-piece playing characteristics.

Along similar lines...

Cutting a one piece bell doesn't make it play like a 2 piece bell.
Matthew Walker
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ithinknot
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Re: Small bore with red brass bells

Post by ithinknot »

hornbuilder wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:12 pm I have tried that. I didn't like the results.
A good reason :good: Thanks for the answer!
andym
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Re: Small bore with red brass bells

Post by andym »

Chatname wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:00 am
andym wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:55 am I tried a Shires .500-.508 with a red brass bell and for me it was fantastic for art songs. Rochut …. But it didn’t feel right for me for jazz. I wound up with that same bore but a yellow brass bell. Later I sat next to a guy playing lead on the red brass bell and he sounded great playing lead on it. So just wasn’t for me.
Yellow regular weight slide? Or nickel silver?
Mine is a nickel lightweight with a yellow crook. Bought it used and so didn’t experiment with different combinations.

I don’t remember the details of the slide the horn in the shop had. Pretty sure it was a 0.500-0.508. Of someone somehow told me it was a 0.508, I’d say not was possible.
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tbonesullivan
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Re: Small bore with red brass bells

Post by tbonesullivan »

As others have said Olds comes to mind when I think about Rose and Red bras being use on small bores. It's a real shame what happened with the company, as they had a lot of good designs that aren't like anything on the market today. They even used bell Krantz / tone rings on some horns. They also used a lot of nickel silver on some models, for things like the tuning slide and gooseneck.

That said my "jazz horn" is a King 3b with a yellow brass bell. Never played one with a rose / gold brass bell, but it's an option they offer on both the 2B an 3B models, so I would guess there are people ordering them.
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Livingston Symphony Orchestra NJ - Trombone
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Finetales
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Re: Small bore with red brass bells

Post by Finetales »

harrisonreed wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:58 am memes
I have 2 beat up yellow 3Bs. Does that mean I occupy both ends of the meme?
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harrisonreed
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Re: Small bore with red brass bells

Post by harrisonreed »

Finetales wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:09 am
harrisonreed wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:58 am memes
I have 2 beat up yellow 3Bs. Does that mean I occupy both ends of the meme?
It's temporal. Yes.
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Matt K
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Re: Small bore with red brass bells

Post by Matt K »

That may be one of the most aesthetic small bores I've seen. Lots of different materials but it works really well with the combination of finish chosen. Bet it plays like a dream too. One of these days...
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Burgerbob
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Re: Small bore with red brass bells

Post by Burgerbob »

Finetales wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:09 am
harrisonreed wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:58 am memes
I have 2 beat up yellow 3Bs. Does that mean I occupy both ends of the meme?
Mine are more beat up than yours, I win!
pjanda1
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Re: Small bore with red brass bells

Post by pjanda1 »

Hyperbolica briefly mentioned Olds, but it is worth noting that most all (or all?) Recordings and Supers were red bells. Very different horns than Kings and Conns in most ways, with the light nickel slides and the super heavy bells. I once owned a Recording and a Super and enjoyed them a great deal except for the balance. They aren't for everybody.

I wish there were more direct comparisons available for vintage horns. I'd love to try an Elkhart 8H with a yellow bell made the same way as the original. I bet I'd love it.

And similarly, I think it'd be really interesting to have a 6H (or my beloved 32H) with a rose bell made the same way the yellow bells were. A friend had a 10H a long time ago, but given that the "Coprion" bell is made so differently, it is not at all a straight up comparison of the materials. MrHCinDE's Minnick is probably about as close as one gets to this!

I suppose this is why the modular horns exist. And now, the range of options you can get from Mr. Walker!

Paul
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