Why no love for the King 607F/608F?

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Burgerbob
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Why no love for the King 607F/608F?

Post by Burgerbob » Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:16 pm

I have a student with a nice 607F. As far as I can tell, it's a 3B+/F with a straight bell brace and simple ferrules. It's great!! Wider, more mellow sound than my 3B/F, more open low range (larger rotor, otherwise pretty much the same construction). Tuning slides were interchangeable.

From what I hear, all the King bells were made in the same line- some just got stamped with the 6XX series at the end, some got stamped with 3B at the end.

I didn't even really know these existed until I tried his out. If you're looking for a solid .525, especially one that's cheap, check 'em out. I'm low-key looking for one now!
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Re: Why no love for the King 607F/608F?

Post by Posaunus » Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:25 pm

I've played a King 606 "student model" (0.500" bore straight tenor; ~1985 Eastlake) that I thought was very good - perhaps "professional" quality. Would not have been ashamed to play it anywhere. Better than its near-twin, a Bach TB300 - probably sample-to-sample variation. :idk:
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Re: Why no love for the King 607F/608F?

Post by Bach5G » Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:37 pm

There’s a 608F (rose brass bell) available locally. $1600 CDN.
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Re: Why no love for the King 607F/608F?

Post by walldaja » Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:59 pm

Things get labeled with little reason. Good to point out a solid performer.
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Re: Why no love for the King 607F/608F?

Post by Matt K » Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:53 pm

The 605F is pretty good too. A little different than the pro lineup but one of the smallest horns I’m aware of produced with f attachment. Mine is in need of TLC and I prefer the 3BF I have but a good 605F should definitely be on peoples radars if they want a small horn with f.
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Re: Why no love for the King 607F/608F?

Post by afugate » Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:26 pm

I have both a 3B+F and a 607F. Enjoy playing both and would be hard pressed to pick one over the other.
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Re: Why no love for the King 607F/608F?

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 » Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:18 pm

I have great admiration for the King 607/608 models. I like the way they play. Even though I believe the left hand lever/brace set up is good for students with medium to small hands, the grip is a little small for my hands. If I were to ever buy one for myself, I would need to modify the left hand area.

The 607/608 models are my #1 suggestions for students in grades 6-8, when I want them to step up to a .525 bore horn. The 607/608 models play on the smaller side of the medium bore spectrum, but they are definitely a step up for kids who are ready to play on something larger than a .500 bore horn. Again…..I think the thumb-goes-around-the-brace design is good for the younger students learning to use the thumb lever and still control the horn.

I know I am an odd-ball on this topic……but the 607/608 horns are really the only King horns that I like. I played a King 4BF in high school and college and really hit a ceiling with it in college. When I switched over to a Bach 42, it was like a dark cloud lifted off of me. The 2B, 3B and King bass trombones all play too small and tight for me. I’m not saying that they are bad….they just do not work for me.

I realize that there are a lot of King fans out there and I’m glad the King pro models work for you. Call me strange, but my enthusiasm for King trombones is limited to only the 607/608 models.
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Re: Why no love for the King 607F/608F?

Post by Matt K » Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:02 am

I'd say that parallels my experience to a degree. As best I can tell, the 3B+ and the 607F are one of the only "big, small" horns out there. Most other medium bores are more of a large bore with something that makes it smaller, whereas the 3B+/607 are a "small bore" bell section (the 3B) with a larger slide. I've never been much a fan of the smaller kings myself, probably mostly due to just not liking smaller horns to begin with. And on the larger side, I find much the same thing with kings. I played a 6B for awhile, but I much prefer my Shires w/ Instrument Innovations rotors I have now.
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Re: Why no love for the King 607F/608F?

Post by hyperbolica » Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:06 am

I see a lot of these for sale, so students must be using them in fairly good numbers. I've long advocated 525 over 547 for students. I probably would have picked one up by now except that I've got 2 525 horns already that I really adore (79h and 88h w/525 slide).
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Re: Why no love for the King 607F/608F?

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 » Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:15 am

I agree hyperbolica! Many of the music stores in my area push kids in 6th and 7th grade to "upgrade" to .547 bore horn. It is part of their rental-plan strategy....."If you continue to pay rental on this students instrument for five more months, you will own the instrument....OR.....you can use that equity to purchase a brand new .547 bore instrument." The problem is that these young kids do not have the lung capacity to hold a note more than 3 seconds on the big bore instruments! I have seen kids thrown into this situation many times.
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Re: Why no love for the King 607F/608F?

Post by hyperbolica » Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:22 pm

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:15 am
I agree hyperbolica! Many of the music stores in my area push kids in 6th and 7th grade to "upgrade" to .547 bore horn. It is part of their rental-plan strategy....."If you continue to pay rental on this students instrument for five more months, you will own the instrument....OR.....you can use that equity to purchase a brand new .547 bore instrument." The problem is that these young kids do not have the lung capacity to hold a note more than 3 seconds on the big bore instruments! I have seen kids thrown into this situation many times.
Yes, I agree. I started in I think 6th grade on an 88h, which was (and still is) a lovely instrument, but too big in bore and weight for me as an 11 year old. Even at music school, there were students and faculty using 525 bore. 40 years later I discovered the 525 slide for the 88h, along with the 79h, which made a lot of things easier.

I've also seen 608 and 609 - same horns with increasingly red bells. I'm not a King fan in general, but I'm sure these are fine horns. You also see a lot of 52h out there, which I assume is a similar grade instrument. The Bach TB200B is a 36B equivalent. They all seem to be in the $2200-2400 range new.
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Re: Why no love for the King 607F/608F?

Post by spencercarran » Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:59 pm

I think they fall into the common "intermediate" trap of being priced high enough that you sort of may as well get the "professional" model.

I'm not wild about the ergonomics of the trigger levers on Kings, but it's not like my Benge is the most comfortable instrument to hold either. If I saw a 607 pop up cheap I certainly wouldn't be opposed to it, even if only for snagging some spare parts.

+1 to everyone else's comments on the virtues of 0.525 bore instruments.
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Re: Why no love for the King 607F/608F?

Post by Finetales » Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:16 pm

To further the point that these horns are just 3B+Fs with some small differences, they are currently sold as "Legend" just like the 3B. The older 607s (no "F" in the designation) were marked as Tempo IIs. The 609F/Tempo II 609 seems to be the rarest of the bunch, though I can't figure out what the difference is vs. the 608F.
spencercarran wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:59 pm
I think they fall into the common "intermediate" trap of being priced high enough that you sort of may as well get the "professional" model.
The 607/607F/608F/609F are in a unique place where the 3B+F is no longer made, and used ones don't show up for sale very often, so there is no easily attainable alternative if you want a bigger 3BF. Even the straight 3B+ isn't that common, so it's not like finding an orphaned 3B+ slide to attach to a 3BF bell section would be that easy either. And, a complete 607/7F/8F/9F would probably still be cheaper.

Plus, since they are "intermediate", used ones fly under the radar and don't go for that much. The 3BF grows on trees so you can find them for cheap, but the same isn't true of the relatively rare 3B+F, so if you want a bigger 3BF there's no reason to not grab a well-priced 607/7F/8F/9F. I'll certainly be getting one if I find one cheap enough.
Last edited by Finetales on Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Why no love for the King 607F/608F?

Post by spencercarran » Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:30 pm

Finetales wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:16 pm
Even the straight 3B+ isn't that common, so it's not like finding an orphaned 3B+ slide to attach to a 3BF bell section would be that easy either.
The tenons aren't compatible between those models anyways, right?
if you want a bigger 3BF there's no reason to not grab a well-priced 607/8/9F. I'll certainly be getting one if I find one cheap enough.
Agreed! I lucked into my Benge for cheap, which is similar enough to the Kings. If I saw a cheap enough 607/608 I'd be happy for the backup slide.
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Re: Why no love for the King 607F/608F?

Post by Finetales » Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:32 pm

spencercarran wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:30 pm
The tenons aren't compatible between those models anyways, right?
Correct, you'd have to get it modified with a 3B tenon.
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Re: Why no love for the King 607F/608F?

Post by hyperbolica » Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:54 pm

Finetales wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:16 pm
I can't figure out what the difference is vs. the 608F.
I think the 607 is yellow, 608 is gold and I think 609 is red. Or thereabouts.
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Re: Why no love for the King 607F/608F?

Post by Finetales » Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:43 pm

hyperbolica wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:54 pm
Finetales wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:16 pm
I can't figure out what the difference is vs. the 608F.
I think the 607 is yellow, 608 is gold and I think 609 is red. Or thereabouts.
The 608F has a rose brass bell. All I can find is that the 609F is also rose brass. Could just be an older model number. When they were still called Tempo II, they were just the 607 and 609 AFAIK, with the normal student horn being the 605, so it's possible they just stuck to only odd numbers at that point.
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Re: Why no love for the King 607F/608F?

Post by jorymil » Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:39 pm

I have a 607F that I purchased years ago from DJ Kennedy and had modified to be F/Gb/G. I use it as a backup/outdoor horn for my 3B+/F that I've had modded in the same way.

It's a really solid horn, and might actually be better than my 3B+/F for very loud playing.

The bell of the 3B/F and 607F is the same part these days:

https://parts.conn-selmer.com/products/ ... 77/tm09016

and although the part numbers for the valve sections are slightly different:

https://parts.conn-selmer.com/products/ ... 7/tm09570a
https://parts.conn-selmer.com/products/ ... 2/tm09460a

the rotor itself is the same:

https://parts.conn-selmer.com/products/ ... /tm0505002

The "intermediate" branding can't have helped the horn's reputation, and since they routinely sell used for less than $500, you can replace it easily enough if lost or stolen (though that would still really suck!).
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Re: Why no love for the King 607F/608F?

Post by jorymil » Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:42 pm

spencercarran wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:30 pm
Agreed! I lucked into my Benge for cheap, which is similar enough to the Kings. If I saw a cheap enough 607/608 I'd be happy for the backup slide.
I got lucky and snagged a brand-new 608 slide from Dawkes in the UK for something ridiculous like $250. Not sure if it was a glitch on their website or if they had old stock they were trying to liquidate, but it's a really good slide and not just "for the money."
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Re: Why no love for the King 607F/608F?

Post by jorymil » Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:50 pm

Finetales wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:32 pm
spencercarran wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:30 pm
The tenons aren't compatible between those models anyways, right?
Correct, you'd have to get it modified with a 3B tenon.
This is on my near-future to-do list. The threading is actually the same on the slide receivers, which means you can jerry-rig a 3B slide to fit a 3B+ or 607/608 bell for temporary use. The 3B+/607/608 tenon and receiver is larger, however, so you can't go in the other direction. I have a straight 3B bell that I really like, and I'd like to have the option of playing a .525 slide on it. I'll either swap out the bell brace on the 3B bell (3B+ braces are still available) or try to figure out some sort of removable tenon setup (tenon, cork barrel, and nut are all separate, thankfully).
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Re: Why no love for the King 607F/608F?

Post by quiethorn » Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:15 am

Anyone know or can measure the slide width on a 607F? If the slide is as wide as other .525s (like the Yamahas), I might put on my list of .525 horns to keep an eye out for.
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Re: Why no love for the King 607F/608F?

Post by Burgerbob » Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:03 am

quiethorn wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:15 am
Anyone know or can measure the slide width on a 607F? If the slide is as wide as other .525s (like the Yamahas), I might put on my list of .525 horns to keep an eye out for.
As far as I can tell, same width as a 3B.
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Re: Why no love for the King 607F/608F?

Post by ithinknot » Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:30 pm

If you want a new one, now's the time. Some of these are just code changes for existing models, but it looks like the intermediate Kings are dunzo. Source: https://parts.conn-selmer.com/news/

You have to wonder if Burgerbob's endorsement was the final straw :pant:

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Re: Why no love for the King 607F/608F?

Post by Posaunus » Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:41 pm

ithinknot wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:30 pm
If you want a new one, now's the time. Some of these are just code changes for existing models, but it looks like the intermediate Kings are dunzo. Source: https://parts.conn-selmer.com/news/
So Conn-Selmer is (finally) streamlining the product line. Somehow, I thought this was inevitable. And (probably) a good thing - for C-S, their retailers, and (perhaps) their customers. :idk:
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Re: Why no love for the King 607F/608F?

Post by calcbone » Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:58 pm

That’s interesting… if the BTB411 replaces the 607/608F, I thought that horn was .525 already…so what makes the BTB411ML qualify as “medium-large?”
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Re: Why no love for the King 607F/608F?

Post by MrHCinDE » Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:14 pm

calcbone wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:58 pm
That’s interesting… if the BTB411 replaces the 607/608F, I thought that horn was .525 already…so what makes the BTB411ML qualify as “medium-large?”
Maybe the BTB411ML is dual-bore 0.525“/0.547“ like a 52h?

Though why they would group together the large bore 52hl with the King 0.525“ horns to be replaced by one model is beyond me and seems unclear whether the BTB411 would be 0.525“ or 0.547“.
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Re: Why no love for the King 607F/608F?

Post by JohnL » Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:37 pm

BTB411: https://www.conn-selmer.com/en-us/instr ... nes/btb411
.547" bore, 8.5" bell

I don't see anything on the C-S site about the BTB411ML, but Hickey's (among others) says it's .525"/.547"
https://www.hickeys.com/music/brass/tro ... outfit.php

I would not consider either to be a true successor to the King 607F/608F family, but it does make sense from a business standpoint to prune to number of different offerings.
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Re: Why no love for the King 607F/608F?

Post by DougHulme » Tue Jan 18, 2022 1:10 am

:horror: For those contemplating the purchase of a 607 here is one for sale on ebay, really cheap.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265244449723 ... %7Ciid%3A1

The seller describes the horn as "The overall physical condition of this used instrument is Fair to Good" to be fair he does also add that its not currently playable :idk:

I'm not serious!!!... Doug
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