How to open up a bach 42

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JCBone
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How to open up a bach 42

Post by JCBone » Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:20 am

I have a bach 42b doesn't play as open as I would like it
to. How would one go about 'opening up' the sound? I presume a leadpipe change?
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by Burgerbob » Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:31 am

Open playing? Open sound? Loud response? Lots of meanings to "open"

Can elaborate a bit more now...

I'm playing a closed wrap 42 with a stock slide (and Griego Alessi 1C) at the moment. The valve range is not open, but the horn feels and sounds great in basically every other way.

Now, with the slide that the bell section came with? No. It sounds awful, feels awful, nothing works. The slide I'm using on it is just another stock 42 slide that happens to match better. Nothing else was changed.

My other 42B bell section is more open in all ways. With the slide I'm using now, it's just kind of dull. More open, but with no real payoff. With that other slide (which is awful on the bell section I'm using), it balances out and gets the color back. Again, both bell sections and both slides are stock.

I know it's difficult in your situation, but if you can just try another slide or two, you might find the culprit. I just did this with a friend with a nice Hagmann 42- his Bach slide is too tight, his Edwards slide is too dull.
Last edited by Burgerbob on Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by Matt K » Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:40 am

Bach 42 pipes are typically pretty good for the Bach 42 in my experience. Did you play another horn that was more "open" than your Bach 42 and like it? I played on a 42 in college and the biggest thing to make it more open for me was to switch from a 5G sized rim to an XT102N and later an XT104N rim.

There's a lot that's been written about the rotor on that model. The short of it is that sometimes people find that the 42Bs are improved by swapping it out for something else. Sometimes not.
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by BGuttman » Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:58 am

The Bach 42B rotor valve has undersized ports. For years, Osmun Brass in Boston (and other techs around the country) would bore out the rotor for around $100. This made a small improvement, but better answers were by changing the valve to something else. The first popular swap was the original Thayer valve. But there are other valves (even rotors) that work better than the original Bach 42B. A valve swap (usually requires new attachment tubing as well) generally costs near $1000. And it's a permanent fix.
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by Ndwood » Wed Sep 08, 2021 12:50 pm

I would say the leadpipe is a good place to start. I’m generally a Bach-ish player but I don’t usually like the stock leadpipes on most 42s I’ve played and I usually do better with a more open leadpipe. I had a Bach 42 slide modified to take Shires threaded leadpipes and used a 2.5L on it - it was a great combination. The longer pipe helps you keep some of the stability of the tighter 42 pipe but with less resistance. I think the Kanstul BB pipe followed the same principles (a little more open and longer 42 pipe).
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by modelerdc » Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:52 pm

My experience with Bach 42s are that they are more mouthpiece sensitive than most horns. I have a 42 that plays wonderfully with a Wick 4BL, Only Ok with a 5G, and is kinda bland with the usual 4G, 4AL and such. Note that this is a straight 42, 42Bs same comments apply, but 42Bs also benefit when a more open valve is used than the stock rotor.
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by harrisonreed » Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:01 pm

(in reference to the topic title: "you open up a Bach 42 with a rawhide mallet and screw drivers")

I believe it's the rotor. I do not like Bach 42s, but I've played on (not by choice) many of them. My opinion here won't be tainted by nostalgia or nice thoughts about Bach 42s so hopefully that provides objectivity here.

The Bach's I've had the displeasure of playing have all been stuffy bar one. There has been precisely one Bach 42 that I have tried that I liked, and that one played incredibly well. That one happened to be the Bach 42T with a Thayer valve on it. I did also swap out the rotor for a straight neckpipe (it came with one from the factory) on a then brand new Bach 42 about five years ago, and that horn also played and felt REALLY good -- but without the rotor not a horn I really would use so I still didn't like it.

I have no idea why Bach continues to put that valve on their large bore trombones. Who remembers when the number one thing everyone was doing was buying the Thayer conversion kits? That wasn't really a fad, it's just cool to be like Joe now and use a rotor again. Osmun music can fix the rotor ports for you for a pretty small fee. An axial valve would probably be even better. A leadpipe change will not fix the underlying problem, which is the rotor, and my reasoning for that is that removing the rotor from the equation with the factory gooseneck made the one 42 I tried that on play GREAT.
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by Kbiggs » Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:16 pm

Without seeing and hearing you play, and having a better idea of what you mean by “open,” any recommendation will be no better than a guess.

Having said that, a lot of people modify their Bach 42’s by opening the ports, replacing the valve, or replacing the leadpipe. Some people also remove or reposition braces. ANYTHING you do will change the sound and response.

Remember also that the “feel” of resistance is not necessarily a “bad” thing. Some resistance is necessary in a horn. It’s up to the soft machine to adjust to make the ideal sound for you on that horn. OTOH, there are unresponsive horns that benefit from a complete, stress-free rebuild. Also, you might be one of those people (like Harrison) who strongly prefers the sound/response of a Conn-like instrument as opposed to a Bach-like instrument.
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by brassmedic » Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:18 pm

I changed my 42B valve to a Thayer a long time ago and I think it's a huge improvement. Not only because of the valve but because the Thayer neckpipe is a lot more open than the Bach neckpipe.
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by MBurner » Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:06 am

To start, there’s plenty of professionals that play a Bach 42 to great success in Chicago, LA, Minnesota, Dallas, Annapolis, and DC. When I hear my favorite low brass recordings, most are on a Bach 42. That being said, most are adjusted with a valve switch, neck pipe, leadpipe, mouthpiece, or total rebuild.
I’ve done 3/5 for my beloved horn. I had Eric Edwards take a bell section that had a wonderful rich sound and covert it from closed to open wrap, while taking tension out of the bracing. The slide had a rich sound and poor action, so it had to be replaced, which I did with an edwards STD slide. Balancing act for STD, I use a T2 brass leadpipe, and a Bach 3G mouthpiece that’s bored out. The open mouthpiece that fits my face and the leadpipe balance the tight rotor and “standard” edwards slide.
I’m all for pragmatic change for the sake of final cost: have a tech pull your leadpipe first and put in a more open leadpipe. Then try an M neck pipe (more open). Feeling brave? Buy another identical mouthpiece and bore out the throat a bit. Valves are costly, but if you want a thayer, more power to you!
In my opinion, stolen from a great retired Principal trombonist: a great 42 is a great horn. Take a good bell and get the tension taken out, open up the wrap, and play!
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by harrisonreed » Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:17 am

MBurner wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:06 am
In my opinion, stolen from a great retired Principal trombonist: a great 42 is a great horn. Take a good bell and get the tension taken out, open up the wrap, and play!
I can't help it. I have to. Please read this as tongue-in-cheek. This is nothing against MBurner, but totally against those sage teachers preaching about the magic bell. I forgot about that other step -- find the magic bell first!

Steps to making a GREAT Bach 42 (bell) play GREAT:

Step 1 - go to the store and try all 20 bells (this store no longer exists in most parts of the US, at least). Swap out slides and bells and tuning slides until you find the magic combo.

Step 2 - trust me, the parts are good. Believe. There are trombonists in some orchestra someplace sounding great on Bach 42s. They just had to bring it to the shop and have it unbuilt first, and then rebuilt by someone who doesn't work at the factory building the horns in the first place. To get the tension out. But that is totally normal.

Step 3 - the parts are gre-- well, I forgot about the valve. Yeah, for some reason they put the same valve as the 36B on there, even today. But other than that the parts are good. So bring it back to the shop and have the rotor ports opened up or just swap out the valve all together. The pros were doing this back in 1993 on new stock so it is totally fine to still be doing this in 2021, especially on new stock.

Step 4 - if it's not too late, have them slap an open wrap up on there, because they are still making them that way too. That's like an upgrade, anyways, and really most people don't want an open wrap -- don't blame them for offering the closed wrap as the standard option. That's what all the kids want. All the pros had theirs changed, so if you really want to be picky....

Step 5 - so, really the parts are good, but I also forgot about the leadpipe. Like, it's not bad, it's just. Well, you see, back in the bad old days real trombonists would just use the 6 1/2 AL mouthpiece that came with their horn. So what if the leadpipe and rotor and everything else on the horn was designed to compensate for that? But yeah, you probably need to have that thing pulled.

Step 6 - Bach 42s are great and great 42s are the best, but ... Well let's just say there are others out there making better tuning slides than the factory is making right now. You can't expect them to give you too many options for that small detail, now can you? They're saving you money up front so you can get what you want on the back end with the savings! Anyways, you might find the horn parts and slots better with a tuning slide made someplace other than the Bach factory.

Step 7 - the Bach slide is okay. Well, no, the parts are great. Did you know that Edwards slides fit Bach bells? I'm just saying. The great thing is that you can have your new leadpipe threaded with an adapter to fit your new Edwards slide.

Step 8 - there's a reason they make conversion kits for Bach bells! You ever play on one of those? Stuffy city! Just get that "magic" bell out of there and slap an Edwards bell that is converted to fit the bach valve (wait, we replaced that with a Thayer, right?) conversion kit. What a difference! Edwards also makes bells that are properly threaded and aligned to fit their own axial valve sections. Those coincidentally also fit the Edwards slide upgrade we did last week.

Step 9 - that magic bell really was something though. I heard they make a conversation kit to convert your Bach converted Bach bell to fit onto a Edwards axial valve section. That should make it play more open.

There you have it, the sage steps and pilgrimage to having the most open playing Bach 42 (bell) on the planet!
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Matt K
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by Matt K » Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:38 am

If the idea is that at some point you no longer have a Bach when you replace all the parts, that’s technically true but conflates everything that can be done when in my experience, people only do some of those things. I’ve actually done everything myself actually, put a 42 bell on a Shires. Iirc that was before they introduced the T5 (one piece bells) at a shires. It did play great. But plenty of people find that the way things are to be fine so I don’t think it’s necessary to change every element of the Bach to get them to play well.

The 36 rotor, for example, can play quite well. And technically parts of it are undersized for the 36 even, but otherwise the size is appropriate for a large bore. Search for Matt walkers posts on these here for the full specs. But at any rate, I had one on my large bore Shires until recently. I’d still have it if I didn’t need the funds for other projects too.

That said, Thayers do work quite well on Bach style horns (one piece soldered bells, bass crooks). Although I wouldn’t personally start there because I like closed wrap horns and tend to not mind the 36/42 rotors.
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by dukesboneman » Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:06 am

I have a Bach 42BO. Same thing as you,played OK but not as open as I`d like.
I bought some Citristrip and stripped the Bell, Just the bell. It played better
It has a standard weight slide. I stripped the slide, It played better.
I then had an OLsen Rotary valve installed from Instrument Innovations.
WOW !
I know have the best .547 horn I`ve ever played
Just my experience
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by MikeS » Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:42 am

In the early 1970’s I was in Ann Arbor when the Leningrad Philharmonic came on a cultural exchange program. Several of the principals gave master classes. I went to the one given by the tubist. He sat down at the front of the room with a Russian made four-valve BBflat tuba that looked a bit worse for wear.

He played some excerpts and then took some questions. Most of the questions were along the lines of, “What horn would you use for X?” When the question was translated his response was generally to look puzzled, say, “This is the horn they gave me,” and play the excerpt flawlessly. He even played a lovely Bydlo on it.

Arnold Jacobs used to talk about playing two horns, the one in your head and the one in your hands. I’m really trying not to be an a%@hole here, but if your head keeps saying this is a stuffy horn it’s probably going to sound that way. Try really concentrating on the sound you want to hear and see if it starts coming out of the bell with less effort. It might not work but it’s cheaper than having a tech rebuild the horn.
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by Ndwood » Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:43 am

harrisonreed wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:17 am
MBurner wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:06 am
In my opinion, stolen from a great retired Principal trombonist: a great 42 is a great horn. Take a good bell and get the tension taken out, open up the wrap, and play!
Well actually…
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by harrisonreed » Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:09 pm

Ndwood wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:43 am
harrisonreed wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:17 am

Well actually…
It was a joke. You wind up with just an Edwards with a Bach bell at the end.

42T = so good
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by CheeseTray » Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:42 pm

harrisonreed wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:17 am
MBurner wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:06 am
In my opinion, stolen from a great retired Principal trombonist: a great 42 is a great horn. Take a good bell and get the tension taken out, open up the wrap, and play!
I can't help it. I have to. Please read this as tongue-in-cheek. This is nothing against MBurner, but totally against those sage teachers preaching about the magic bell. I forgot about that other step -- find the magic bell first!

Steps to making a GREAT Bach 42 (bell) play GREAT:

Step 1 - go to the store and try all 20 bells (this store no longer exists in most parts of the US, at least). Swap out slides and bells and tuning slides until you find the magic combo.

Step 2 - trust me, the parts are good. Believe. There are trombonists in some orchestra someplace sounding great on Bach 42s. They just had to bring it to the shop and have it unbuilt first, and then rebuilt by someone who doesn't work at the factory building the horns in the first place. To get the tension out. But that is totally normal.

Step 3 - the parts are gre-- well, I forgot about the valve. Yeah, for some reason they put the same valve as the 36B on there, even today. But other than that the parts are good. So bring it back to the shop and have the rotor ports opened up or just swap out the valve all together. The pros were doing this back in 1993 on new stock so it is totally fine to still be doing this in 2021, especially on new stock.

Step 4 - if it's not too late, have them slap an open wrap up on there, because they are still making them that way too. That's like an upgrade, anyways, and really most people don't want an open wrap -- don't blame them for offering the closed wrap as the standard option. That's what all the kids want. All the pros had theirs changed, so if you really want to be picky....

Step 5 - so, really the parts are good, but I also forgot about the leadpipe. Like, it's not bad, it's just. Well, you see, back in the bad old days real trombonists would just use the 6 1/2 AL mouthpiece that came with their horn. So what if the leadpipe and rotor and everything else on the horn was designed to compensate for that? But yeah, you probably need to have that thing pulled.

Step 6 - Bach 42s are great and great 42s are the best, but ... Well let's just say there are others out there making better tuning slides than the factory is making right now. You can't expect them to give you too many options for that small detail, now can you? They're saving you money up front so you can get what you want on the back end with the savings! Anyways, you might find the horn parts and slots better with a tuning slide made someplace other than the Bach factory.

Step 7 - the Bach slide is okay. Well, no, the parts are great. Did you know that Edwards slides fit Bach bells? I'm just saying. The great thing is that you can have your new leadpipe threaded with an adapter to fit your new Edwards slide.

Step 8 - there's a reason they make conversion kits for Bach bells! You ever play on one of those? Stuffy city! Just get that "magic" bell out of there and slap an Edwards bell that is converted to fit the bach valve (wait, we replaced that with a Thayer, right?) conversion kit. What a difference! Edwards also makes bells that are properly threaded and aligned to fit their own axial valve sections. Those coincidentally also fit the Edwards slide upgrade we did last week.

Step 9 - that magic bell really was something though. I heard they make a conversation kit to convert your Bach converted Bach bell to fit onto a Edwards axial valve section. That should make it play more open.

There you have it, the sage steps and pilgrimage to having the most open playing Bach 42 (bell) on the planet!
Haha!

Best. 42 post. Ever!

(By the way, I've made my living playing a 42/Edwards combo for 30+ years...guilty as charged)

Bravo, Harrison. Well done.
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by MBurner » Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:59 pm

😂😂😂😂😂
Well said, Harrison!
We use the term Frankenbone a lot. I like to think of it more as a muscle car, optimized. 😎 If Conn Selmer did their job, my techs would be out of a job!
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by marccromme » Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:53 pm

Harrison nailed it. But wait, there is another much cheaper option to open up a 42: just use a can opener over the entire length. .
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by Posaunus » Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:43 pm

How to "open up" a Bach 42? Perhaps sell it and purchase an Edwards? :idk:
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by Burgerbob » Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:52 pm

Ugh. Edwards are not Bachs.
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by whitbey » Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:26 am

Edwards.
Edwards Sterling bell 525/547
Edwards brass bell 547/562
Edwards Jazz w/ Ab valve 500"/.508"
Conn 34H Alto
Bass Bach 50 Bb/F/C dependent.
Cerveny oval euphonium
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by Matt K » Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:09 am

Does Edwards even make a 1 piece bell? That's possibly the most characteristic part of what makes a Bach a Bach. I could see an argument certainly for the Greenhoe Bach conversions as well as the Coutrouis that Jorgen van Rijen plays or the Shires "Chicago" model since they're both patterned after it at least. But Edwards, to the best of my knowledge, has never really done anything to "hint" at commonalities to Bach like other manufacturers have with things like similar/identical model numbers (eg. 420 vs 42) or outright claiming it to be like a Bach-like part like the Shires "X" tuning slide and "L" slides.
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by harrisonreed » Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:47 am

They claim the Alessi slide crook is copied straight from one of alessi's Bach slides.

Used to claim. Now they make no claims to Alessi's trombone
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by Matt K » Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:39 am

Oh yeah, good catch on that one. Was it an actual copy though? I seem to have been under the impression the 396 is/was a "tenor" crook... a wide 547 or 554 or something right?
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by brtnats » Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:41 am

harrisonreed wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:17 am
MBurner wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:06 am
In my opinion, stolen from a great retired Principal trombonist: a great 42 is a great horn. Take a good bell and get the tension taken out, open up the wrap, and play!
I can't help it. I have to. Please read this as tongue-in-cheek. This is nothing against MBurner, but totally against those sage teachers preaching about the magic bell. I forgot about that other step -- find the magic bell first!

Steps to making a GREAT Bach 42 (bell) play GREAT:

Step 1 - go to the store and try all 20 bells (this store no longer exists in most parts of the US, at least). Swap out slides and bells and tuning slides until you find the magic combo.

Step 2 - trust me, the parts are good. Believe. There are trombonists in some orchestra someplace sounding great on Bach 42s. They just had to bring it to the shop and have it unbuilt first, and then rebuilt by someone who doesn't work at the factory building the horns in the first place. To get the tension out. But that is totally normal.

Step 3 - the parts are gre-- well, I forgot about the valve. Yeah, for some reason they put the same valve as the 36B on there, even today. But other than that the parts are good. So bring it back to the shop and have the rotor ports opened up or just swap out the valve all together. The pros were doing this back in 1993 on new stock so it is totally fine to still be doing this in 2021, especially on new stock.

Step 4 - if it's not too late, have them slap an open wrap up on there, because they are still making them that way too. That's like an upgrade, anyways, and really most people don't want an open wrap -- don't blame them for offering the closed wrap as the standard option. That's what all the kids want. All the pros had theirs changed, so if you really want to be picky....

Step 5 - so, really the parts are good, but I also forgot about the leadpipe. Like, it's not bad, it's just. Well, you see, back in the bad old days real trombonists would just use the 6 1/2 AL mouthpiece that came with their horn. So what if the leadpipe and rotor and everything else on the horn was designed to compensate for that? But yeah, you probably need to have that thing pulled.

Step 6 - Bach 42s are great and great 42s are the best, but ... Well let's just say there are others out there making better tuning slides than the factory is making right now. You can't expect them to give you too many options for that small detail, now can you? They're saving you money up front so you can get what you want on the back end with the savings! Anyways, you might find the horn parts and slots better with a tuning slide made someplace other than the Bach factory.

Step 7 - the Bach slide is okay. Well, no, the parts are great. Did you know that Edwards slides fit Bach bells? I'm just saying. The great thing is that you can have your new leadpipe threaded with an adapter to fit your new Edwards slide.

Step 8 - there's a reason they make conversion kits for Bach bells! You ever play on one of those? Stuffy city! Just get that "magic" bell out of there and slap an Edwards bell that is converted to fit the bach valve (wait, we replaced that with a Thayer, right?) conversion kit. What a difference! Edwards also makes bells that are properly threaded and aligned to fit their own axial valve sections. Those coincidentally also fit the Edwards slide upgrade we did last week.

Step 9 - that magic bell really was something though. I heard they make a conversation kit to convert your Bach converted Bach bell to fit onto a Edwards axial valve section. That should make it play more open.

There you have it, the sage steps and pilgrimage to having the most open playing Bach 42 (bell) on the planet!


You say joke. I see lots of YouTube content and posts that take it as gospel.
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by Posaunus » Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:12 am

Matt K wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:09 am
Does Edwards even make a 1 piece bell? That's possibly the most characteristic part of what makes a Bach a Bach.
I thought the topic was about how to "open up" a "stuffy" Bach 42 (as many of us have encountered) - not about the miracles of a 1-piece bell. (I presume it's not Bach's bells that make them "stuffy.") Yes, Bach makes some wonderful components, and many excellent trombones. Yes, lots of folks like various variants of the Bach 42. And it's true that nobody else makes a Bach. But many other manufacturers make great, unstuffy trombones. And some of us find many Bach 42s stuffy. What to do? :idk:
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by Matt K » Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:42 am

Posaunus wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:12 am
Matt K wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:09 am
Does Edwards even make a 1 piece bell? That's possibly the most characteristic part of what makes a Bach a Bach.
I thought the topic was about how to "open up" a "stuffy" Bach 42 (as many of us have encountered) - not about the miracles of a 1-piece bell. (I presume it's not Bach's bells that make them "stuffy.") Yes, Bach makes some wonderful components, and many excellent trombones. Yes, lots of folks like various variants of the Bach 42. And it's true that nobody else makes a Bach. But many other manufacturers make great, unstuffy trombones. And some of us find many Bach 42s stuffy. What to do? :idk:
Harrison's post is both tongue in cheek but very comprehensive about what others have done, albeit humorously indicating that at some point you end up with "not a Bach". I was actually one of those players and basically did those steps, funnily enough. My point was that if someone is suggesting that an Edwards is basically a "good" Bach, that it really isn't and one of the things that distinguishes Bach from many other builds is the one-piece bell. That isn't typically what causes it to feel stuffy, although one-piece bells do characteristically have less flexibility, which is often countered by a soldered bell bead.

If I had a stuffy Bach, I'd probably swap out the rotor for a Rotax or Instrument Innovations rotor. I tend to like the way those play and it's not as drastic as going to a Thayer. I tend to like the Bach 42 pipe in a Bach 42 so I might not even touch the pipe although you could consider it. Reason I might not start there is Bach 42 inners are expensive, so if it gets damaged in the process, you're out quite a bit of change. Not far off from the price of an Instrument Innovations rotor, actually.

EDIT while I wait for a meeting to start: Other things that a Bach "like" horn such as the Shires do is have shorter slides. The longer slide provides more stability which can sometimes be interpreted as being stuffy. So actually, a for example Edwards slide on a Bach bell... might help. But you're getting farther and farther away from the characteristic Bach sound and/or feel depending on how far you take it which was the point of Harrison's post. Jay Friedman played/plays a Bach 50 slide, which is the same length but obviously the bigger bore!
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by djkennedy » Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:24 pm

Hello
Put a Bach weight on anything
Shires
Courtois
Edwards
Rath.
There you go
Great BACH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by harrisonreed » Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:52 pm

Matt K wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:39 am
Oh yeah, good catch on that one. Was it an actual copy though? I seem to have been under the impression the 396 is/was a "tenor" crook... a wide 547 or 554 or something right?
In the bad sweater video where they discuss making and designing the 396A, either Joe or Christan says that they "took the brass slide crook from one of the Bach slides" that Joe really liked. They made it seem like it was some unique slide from an era where it was an option from Bach.
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by BGuttman » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:09 pm

djkennedy wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:24 pm
Hello
Put a Bach weight on anything
Shires
Courtois
Edwards
Rath.
There you go
Great BACH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How do you put a Bach weight on a Rath? :horror:
Bruce Guttman
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by harrisonreed » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:17 pm

BGuttman wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:09 pm
djkennedy wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:24 pm
Hello
Put a Bach weight on anything
Shires
Courtois
Edwards
Rath.
There you go
Great BACH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How do you put a Bach weight on a Rath? :horror:
It attaches to and obscures the "R" with duct tape.
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by CalgaryTbone » Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:13 am

harrisonreed wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:52 pm
Matt K wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:39 am
Oh yeah, good catch on that one. Was it an actual copy though? I seem to have been under the impression the 396 is/was a "tenor" crook... a wide 547 or 554 or something right?
In the bad sweater video where they discuss making and designing the 396A, either Joe or Christan says that they "took the brass slide crook from one of the Bach slides" that Joe really liked. They made it seem like it was some unique slide from an era where it was an option from Bach.
I just re-watched the "sweater" video on YouTube. No mention of the slide crook, but Joe does mention that the Bach that he owns has gold brass outer slide tubes, and they copied that on the 396A. His new Shires also has gold brass slide tubes. The "old Bach" by the way is a Mt. Vernon horn that Glenn Dodson gave him after retiring from Philadelphia. I'm pretty sure that Dodson was gifted that same horn by his teacher, Gusakof (sp?) who was also the principal in Philadelphia. Nice history behind that instrument.

Jim Scott
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by harrisonreed » Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:38 am

CalgaryTbone wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:13 am
harrisonreed wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:52 pm


In the bad sweater video where they discuss making and designing the 396A, either Joe or Christan says that they "took the brass slide crook from one of the Bach slides" that Joe really liked. They made it seem like it was some unique slide from an era where it was an option from Bach.
I just re-watched the "sweater" video on YouTube. No mention of the slide crook, but Joe does mention that the Bach that he owns has gold brass outer slide tubes, and they copied that on the 396A. His new Shires also has gold brass slide tubes. The "old Bach" by the way is a Mt. Vernon horn that Glenn Dodson gave him after retiring from Philadelphia. I'm pretty sure that Dodson was gifted that same horn by his teacher, Gusakof (sp?) who was also the principal in Philadelphia. Nice history behind that instrument.

Jim Scott
I just rewatched as well. He says "gold brass slide" with no mention of outers or crooks as they show a picture focusing on the crook. Confusing to be sure.

I think I latched onto that because I was not used to seeing or playing trombones with a brass crook at all. I guess I'm vaguely are that 42s have something like that, but the way they did the picture made me focus on that. My bad
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by CalgaryTbone » Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:01 pm

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that Edwards never had gold slide tubes before the 396A. I think Joe started using a slide w/a .547 crook instead of the .562 that they offer before they developed the 396. A lot of Edwards and Shires players seemed to go that way in the last while - adding a little bit of resistance when the horns are so open, particularly with thayers.

Jim Scott
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by elmsandr » Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:24 pm

CalgaryTbone wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:01 pm
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that Edwards never had gold slide tubes before the 396A. I think Joe started using a slide w/a .547 crook instead of the .562 that they offer before they developed the 396. A lot of Edwards and Shires players seemed to go that way in the last while - adding a little bit of resistance when the horns are so open, particularly with thayers.

Jim Scott
It was an option for years to get different tubes... not publicized, you had to ask. They had a couple in stock when I bought mine in '99. I didn't prefer them then, my opinion might be different now.

Cheers,
Andy
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by whitbey » Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:56 pm

Matt K wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:09 am
Does Edwards even make a 1 piece bell? That's possibly the most characteristic part of what makes a Bach a Bach. I could see an argument certainly for the Greenhoe Bach conversions as well as the Coutrouis that Jorgen van Rijen plays or the Shires "Chicago" model since they're both patterned after it at least. But Edwards, to the best of my knowledge, has never really done anything to "hint" at commonalities to Bach like other manufacturers have with things like similar/identical model numbers (eg. 420 vs 42) or outright claiming it to be like a Bach-like part like the Shires "X" tuning slide and "L" slides.
I am not sure on the actual parts. But I do know they are an American company that have good people that fit a horn to you really well. My brass bell horn setup seems to have a lot of Bach things that are good. It does not play like a Bach, it plays easier and does not have the dud notes I found on the Bach's 42's I played.
Edwards Sterling bell 525/547
Edwards brass bell 547/562
Edwards Jazz w/ Ab valve 500"/.508"
Conn 34H Alto
Bass Bach 50 Bb/F/C dependent.
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by Matt K » Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:04 pm

whitbey wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:56 pm
Matt K wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:09 am
Does Edwards even make a 1 piece bell? That's possibly the most characteristic part of what makes a Bach a Bach. I could see an argument certainly for the Greenhoe Bach conversions as well as the Coutrouis that Jorgen van Rijen plays or the Shires "Chicago" model since they're both patterned after it at least. But Edwards, to the best of my knowledge, has never really done anything to "hint" at commonalities to Bach like other manufacturers have with things like similar/identical model numbers (eg. 420 vs 42) or outright claiming it to be like a Bach-like part like the Shires "X" tuning slide and "L" slides.
I am not sure on the actual parts. But I do know they are an American company that have good people that fit a horn to you really well. My brass bell horn setup seems to have a lot of Bach things that are good. It does not play like a Bach, it plays easier and does not have the dud notes I found on the Bach's 42's I played.
For sure, I'm definitely not questioning the folks over at Edwards. If I were to buy a large bore tenor blind now and I had the money to spend the 396 would certainly be very high on that list of horns. But I'm also not as much a fan of the Bach stuff as I was a few years ago. If I WERE in the market for a "magic Bach", I'm not sure what I'd do. Maybe the A47. Or a Courtouis AC420. So many horns so little time :lol:
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by harrisonreed » Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:17 pm

No don't do it to me, Courtouis! Noooooo, my hand...!
Screenshot_20201128-194025.png
Screenshot_20201128-194025.png (1.16 MiB) Viewed 435 times
Bach won't do you like that, at least.
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by Matt K » Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:38 pm

:horror:
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Re: How to open up a bach 42

Post by SwissTbone » Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:24 pm

harrisonreed wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:17 pm
No don't do it to me, Courtouis! Noooooo, my hand...!

Screenshot_20201128-194025.png

Bach won't do you like that, at least.
Wise grip will help you with that!
ƒƒ---------------------------------------------------ƒƒ
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