Commercial bass

[Indiebass1993]

Hey everyone!

Looking for a bit of advice here. What all do you use for basses in a commercial setting? Looking in the future to get a separate bass than what I have now (Shires GC) that has some more punch to the sound.

Thanks!

[Burgerbob]

I find that most of the difference is in the articulation/response rather than the sound itself. Once you can get a quick front to the note without a lot of weight, you're 80% of the way there. That matches the (usually small) tenors and doesn't get in the way with quicker or harder articulations like it might on an orchestral horn.

Past that, it's nice to have some efficiency- not necessarily in blow, but in energy into the horn per decibel. Something that is just naturally louder will make your life easier most of the time, though that's not necessarily only a commercial thing either.

Just a change in approach will also make a big difference (no other changes at all), though obviously some horns are more receptive to this than others. I tried out my new-to-me Bach 50T3L at work the other day and it did great- I could get a nice easy response and could match the tenors articulation wise, which is all they really want. That was with a Greg Black 1G and Edwards 502 single bore slide. Add in the dual bore and it really does slow down and broaden in a way that is less conducive to that style, of course.

[Indiebass1993]

That's a good point. Fortunately, I have just acquired a shires single bore slide, just haven't received it yet. That may give me what I'm looking for.

[Savio]

An old Conn Elkhart, 70h, 72h, 73h will be my suggestion.

Leif

[slipmo]

An old Conn Elkhart, 70h, 72h, 73h will be my suggestion.

Leif

Savio speaks the truth... would add the venerable vintage 60H/62H as well. Some modern makers have created versions of this that work well too: M&W, Greenhoe, Kanstul for example.

I will also add the King Duo Gravis works really well in commercial settings as well, but it is not for everyone

[afugate]

I will also add the King Duo Gravis works really well in commercial settings as well, but it is not for everyone

Duo Gravis is what works for me. It's the sound I hear in my head. I fought other horns to get that sound and then stopped looking/fighting when I got my first Duo Gravis. (Yes, I have 2 - one for me and one for our daughter. )

--Andy in OKC

[brassmedic]

That's a good point. Fortunately, I have just acquired a shires single bore slide, just haven't received it yet. That may give me what I'm looking for.

I think you answered your own question. Shires bass trombones have plenty of punch. If you want a commercial sound, ditch the duo bore slide. Comes with 3 leadpipes, too. Try the smallest one.

[stewbones43]

My solution is a lot cheaper than buying another horn!
For legit playing I use a Doug Yeo Signature on my independent large bass but for commercial stuff I use a Doug Elliott LB114E8; similar rim size but much shallower to give a bit more edge and bite.

It works for me and might work for you.

Cheers

Stewbones43

[Matt K]

I basically only play commercial but have from time-to-time played classical bass, mostly as a sub for a tuba in a brass 5tet/4tet or in a trombone consort. In my experience, the difference between commercial and classical in those contexts is not as divergent as it would be between say lead in a big band and 2nd chair in an orchestra. So what works for me most of the time works with relatively little adjustment. Though I do have a tendency to play something slightly shallower on commercial.

One thing to consider is whether you are playing a "4th trombone" part or an actual bass trombone part. The function of a "bass trombone" part in a big band is a little different than that of a tenor in a lot of parts. Although you will play lines that the rest of the parts have, you often will also have diverging parts that may double the bari sax, bass, and left hand of the piano, making it in some cases more of a harmonic instrument rather than a melodic instrument. Because of that, I may also keep the "usual" bass trombone piece because I'm not necessarily after blending just with the trombones, but also with other instruments.

So what I would suggest is that - and this assumes you haven't - record yourself playing with the ensemble and see if more "punch" is what you are after. Personally, I find I have more "punch" with a dual bore slide. Especially on say, pedal notes. But it has to blend with the rest of the instruments that aren't trombones too!

Another route you may wish to explore is altering your perception of the sound of punchiness. If you are only playing "acoustic" (meaning you don't have your own monitor for your sound) that would mean possibly swapping out some equipment on your horn. The single bore slide may help with that but other things that can change the perception of sound, particularly if you are Shires already, are trying soldered bell beads, bells of slightly lighter weight, and drawn rather than seamed tuning slides. Some of those qualities are found in the Conns and King horns that were mentioned.

As others have mentioned, being closer to the "1" side of the leadpipe spectrum might also help. I "tend" to be closer to a 3 for classical stuff and closer to a 1 for commercial setups... but it depends on the rest of the horn.

[bassclef]

Some good stuff above.

"Punchy" attacks are usually the focus of this conversation whenever it comes up, but to me that's actually not the most critical element of a commercial/big band bass trombone sound. You have to have this, so it's certainly important. Generally, you're not going to want to start notes like Ben Van Dijk in this particular ensemble context. Anyway, there is equipment which certainly makes this easier by default.

In my mind, the key element of this sound concept is being able to have a compact and colorful sound, sometimes with just a bit of what some would call "brightness" or "edge", at dynamics of forte and especiallybelow. you can get this sound out of anything of course, but it might take a considerable amount of effort/adjustment to bend the horn's default sound in this direction. To many peoples' ears, the King and Conn models mentioned above have a default sound which is already there.

Let's take a ballad for example where you supporting a mf phrase your section is playing with some half/whole notes at the bottom of/just below the staff. Common scenario. If you approach this like you're playing the 4th trombone part of a Mahler brass chorale, I don't think you're going to sound as good as you could. The advice above about knowing when you're the 4th trombone and when you're the bass trombone is dead on.

I'm certainly not one to discourage someone from buying stuff, but maybe you don't need a whole separate horn, just try some different Shires components? Definitely try a single bore slide, perhaps even one in nickel. Try the BI bell taper also and in lighter gauges if you can. Even though it's from another maker, I'm currently loving a lighter weight gold bell with a Conn-style (BI) taper and a nickel slide for big band playing.

Also, don't discount the importance of listening. Having a solid idea in your head of the sound you want to produce will make it easier to find equipment changes which will provide the ease of making it happen on the bandstand in comparison to what you have. Forgive me for sounding like I'm assuming you don't already do enough of this.

Kudos to you for wanting to explore the many nuances of big band bass bone playing.

[Posaunus]

An old Conn Elkhart, 70h, 72h, 73h will be my suggestion.
Leif

I think my Conn 71H does the job pretty well. Quite compatible with a Connstellation 3B mouthpiece; also works well with my DE setup.

[harrisonreed]

My solution is a lot cheaper than buying another horn!
For legit playing I use a Doug Yeo Signature on my independent large bass but for commercial stuff I use a Doug Elliott LB114E8; similar rim size but much shallower to give a bit more edge and bite.

It works for me and might work for you.

Cheers

Stewbones43

I'm sort of in the same boat. My colleague is a monster bass bone player and he's tried my Yamaha Xeno -- says the valves, especially both valves together are stuffy and your air just disappears into the low C. Low C is like a wet noodle. I agree, and feel better that it might not just be me. I think, however, that a lot can be solved with a mouthpiece. I tried my "Super Amazing" tenor mouthpiece on it and the low C barked out loud as could be, but it didn't sound like a bass trombone. Shallower cup and the throat is bigger than the J8. Identical rim to my bass piece.

I am not a bass trombone enthusiast by any stretch, but one thing I've noticed when I've had to play is that the Doug Elliott J/J8 makes it really easy to connect notes and get that "chocolate" effect, which would be great if I was playing a melody, but I haven't had to do anything like that in a big band. With that piece it's like the horn is kind of a malleable track that you really can't push and you just sort of stay on the rails and go on a nice ride. Again, that's probably 90% my fault as someone who is playing bass out of necessity. I'm working on some multi-track recordings where that kind of chocolatey / blendy sound will be money so I'm not knocking it

I'm already looking for two things -- more bite and more bark. This is just a hunch, but I think that the J cup is too deep for a big band setting, and the J8 shank is too narrow of a backbore to really push the horn. I've already done it for tenor, and found a relatively shallow cup with a very large backbore and now I can play with a lot of presence at all times, and with some real bite and brassy bark when the music gets intense -- and that is on a large bore. So for bass I imagine that an H cup depth with an H9 or the mythical H10 shank would be where I want to be in a big band. An E cup seems excessively shallow, but maybe it would work. I'm certain the exit of the E cup where it mates to the shank is too narrow to accommodate a backbore like what I'm thinking of.

[Matt K]

AFAIK, Doug is still working on his new "*" series for J & K shanks but I've tried several and my understanding is the new "8" series for basses are going to be more for commercial work and that was reflected in the differences that I tried with the new ones. You might want to hit him up and see if he has any new shanks to try in that letter. It isn't nearly as big of a difference as the "E" shanks for me but it most definitely was an improvement. I find an LB114/L/L9* to be just about perfect for me for most playing but I do occasionally switch over to a J/J8* now. But I also have a dual bore slide and it plays very well with the dual bore.

[afugate]

[snip]
In my mind, the key element of this sound concept is being able to have a compact and colorful sound, sometimes with just a bit of what some would call "brightness" or "edge", at dynamics of forte and especially below. you can get this sound out of anything of course, but it might take a considerable amount of effort/adjustment to bend the horn's default sound in this direction. To many peoples' ears, the King and Conn models mentioned above have a default sound which is already there.

--Andy in OKC