Butler Carbon Fiber Slide review- bass trombone

[Burgerbob]

Here's my thoughts on the Butler .562 slide I've had for a while, after some use at work, at home, and with friends.

Sound comparison with a brass slide is incoming as well.

[Bonephilly]

I’ve been playing my carbon fiber slide on my tenor for 2 years now. I’ve tried everything, but can’t figure out how to keep the slide from slowing down after 10 minutes. It’s amazing 10/10 dry, but as soon as water accumulates on the slide from playing…it catches in every position. Does your slide do the same?

[Burgerbob]

I’ve been playing my carbon fiber slide on my tenor for 2 years now. I’ve tried everything, but can’t figure out how to keep the slide from slowing down after 10 minutes. It’s amazing 10/10 dry, but as soon as water accumulates on the slide from playing…it catches in every position. Does your slide do the same?

Yup! Have you used the Berp Biolube? Apparently it's all the rage. I haven't bought any since I wouldn't use it much, at least yet.

[Bonephilly]

Yes, didn’t produce better results than the Yamaha.

[Burgerbob]

Interesting. Glad I didn't buy any!

I just deal with it being a little slow. Now that the slide is aligned it's much more livable.

[elmsandr]

Gotta be super clean. I clean, use the bio lube stuff, wipe most off and then a couple of drops of the silicone stuff. Seems to work fine unless there's just too much condensation.

I fall right in line with your opinions on most of it, Aiden... just I find that the benefits of indestructability outweigh some of the downsides.

But yes, next time I would have Butler make an outer to fit any other inner... their design is weird and wrong for the inner.

[AndrewMeronek]

I've found that sometimes repair techs who deal with middle and high school horns a lot don't realize what a pro means when we say "please fix the slide alignment". Not knowing your tech's experience, it's food for thought. My test is to dry-drop it as soon as I get it back - not only should the drop go easily with gravity, but the sound of the slide should be super-consistent as well. If there's pretty much any "woosh" with apparent pitch change as the slide moves, it's not right yet.

[Mamaposaune]

Thanks for posting this, Aiden. I have a question about the alignment -did it arrive from Dave out-of-alignment? I know he offers the option of buying just the outer slide, with the further option of shipping your current slide to him so it can be fitted perfectly to your inner.
I am considering doing this (so I would have the option of going back to the stock outer) but only so I have 2 outers that are in good alignment with the original inner.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

AndrewMeronek,

You bring up a very valid point. When I was trained as a technician, the term they used for fixing school instruments (including trombones) was “play condition.” The best I can describe trombone slide “play condition” is that the slide would feel wonderful to the average middle schooler or high schooler because the average student is accustomed to a slide that is crusty and has a few dents in it. The test for a “play condition “ slide was that, when completely dry, the slide would fall freely with no catches when held at a 45 degree angle. When finishing work on school trombone slides, I usually swab the slide, lube it with slide cream and water, move the slide aggressively for about 5 minutes, then swab it again and vacuum it dry.

Horns played by professionals should be held to a higher standard. Yes, professional slides should be aligned to very precise measurements and they should be double and triple checked for all of the parallelisms. I believe the big difference in making a professional slide work extremely well is the cleaning work after all the repairs have been done. I do the lube/move/swab cycle at least a dozen times on pro players’ horn because it takes time and effort to remove the grit from the nooks and crannies of the outer slide. I have stated this on other threads….there are no short cuts to a high performance slide…..if it has any work done on it, it is going to take some time and effort to get that grit, buffing compound, metallic dust, etc…. out of there.

The carbon fibers are a different beast. I have never owned one or played on one for more than 45 minutes at a time. However, I have definitely noticed that “drag factor” that kicks in after about 15-20 minutes of playing. When I tried carbon fiber slides at shows, the sales person was quick to offer a swabbing when I brought it to their attention. I am wonder if there are any scientists/physicists on TromboneChat that can offer an explanation for the friction problems that occur with carbon fiber slides when water + time are introduced into the equation.

By the way……Aiden, thank you for your original post an video. I always find your videos very insightful and interesting. I appreciate all of the little details that you discuss in all of your videos.

[AndrewMeronek]

Thanks for posting this, Aiden. I have a question about the alignment -did it arrive from Dave out-of-alignment? I know he offers the option of buying just the outer slide, with the further option of shipping your current slide to him so it can be fitted perfectly to your inner.
I am considering doing this (so I would have the option of going back to the stock outer) but only so I have 2 outers that are in good alignment with the original inner.

I wouldn't assume Dave's fault here. Unless the slide shipping container was custom-made and essentially bulletproof, the banging it would get while it's handled during transit and at whatever sorting facility during shipping will likely cause alignment issues. I've been in a sorting facility; things can get jostled around pretty aggressively, and it's not always the fault of the package handlers. All it takes is some idiot who ships a 100lb iron anvil in an unreinforced box that doesn't get caught.

[2bobone]

I removed Dave Butler's "Easy-Flo" water key and installed a "JoyKey" on my regular .562 and my dual-bore Butler slides. Since the "JoyKey" is in a state of constant draining, there is NO water to compromise the slide action. When I ordered the dual-bore slide, I specified that there be no water key, nor was it drilled for one. That allowed me to optimally place the drainage hole rather than using the "Speedy-Flo" location. A light coating of Berp-Bio and a touch of Yamasnot allows the slide to function perfectly for hours. The cartridge in the JoyKey must be cleaned occasionally. I use an inexpensive high frequency machine designed for dental appliances with an ammonia solution and keep a spare cartridge or two on hand. Problem solved !

[norbie2018]

Thanks for posting this, Aiden. I have a question about the alignment -did it arrive from Dave out-of-alignment? I know he offers the option of buying just the outer slide, with the further option of shipping your current slide to him so it can be fitted perfectly to your inner.
I am considering doing this (so I would have the option of going back to the stock outer) but only so I have 2 outers that are in good alignment with the original inner.

I wouldn't assume Dave's fault here. Unless the slide shipping container was custom-made and essentially bulletproof, the banging it would get while it's handled during transit and at whatever sorting facility during shipping will likely cause alignment issues. I've been in a sorting facility; things can get jostled around pretty aggressively, and it's not always the fault of the package handlers. All it takes is some idiot who ships a 100lb iron anvil in an unreinforced box that doesn't get caught.

I believe Aiden stated in the video that this is a used slide; if so, no telling how it came from the factory.

Michael

[sungfw]

I wouldn't assume Dave's fault here. Unless the slide shipping container was custom-made and essentially bulletproof, the banging it would get while it's handled during transit and at whatever sorting facility during shipping will likely cause alignment issues. I've been in a sorting facility; things can get jostled around pretty aggressively, and it's not always the fault of the package handlers. All it takes is some idiot who ships a 100lb iron anvil in an unreinforced box that doesn't get caught.

Without re-watching the video to confirm/dis-confirm, I seem to recall that Aiden bought the slide secondhand?

[Burgerbob]

Yup, I got the slide used. So it came to me out of alignment but no clue where or why.

That joy key arrangement does seem better than the included key, which is grade-A awful.

I am thinking, if anything, of a CF outer for my 3B, which would be ideal I think.

[Mamaposaune]

Thanks for the clarification. I missed the part about it being used.

[johntarr]

I have a Butler C10 and none of the issues pointed out in the OP. My slide works as well as any, but the lubrication process is quite different from a normal slide and takes some getting used to. For starters, there are some posts in the FB Butler owner’s group that give nice descriptions of how to apply carnauba wax to the inners. Doing this about once a month plus using a tiny bit of BERP wax keeps my slide moving very freely. I recently played a long morning symphony rehearsal with an afternoon concert and only had to swab my slide before the breaks. When taking practice breaks, I swab the slide and the hang the outer upside down, that way when I come back, the slide is ready to go.

As far as the dangerously sharp, and uneven cork barrels, this too is not a problem with the C10 I have, perhaps that’s a problem with older and/or bass slides. The cork barrels are the same length. Reaching the water key is not a problem for me but I do agree that the throw could be larger, making it easier to expel the spit. The main thing I don’t like about the spit valve is that some of the spit collects on the broad inner surface of the lever causing it to disburse over a larger area. This is also not great in terms of hygiene for our colleagues.

Overall, I’m very happy with the horn and really am thankful for the light weight, which has helped relieve some shoulder issues I developed from playing a heavier, less balanced horn. So far all of my colleagues seem to like the sound I’m getting and I find the ease to be a game changer for me.

[muschem]

Love the detailed review! I play a Butler JJ, and have a C10 build in progress.

I received my horn directly from Dave, and the slide arrived without any alignment issues. I haven't had issues with the slide slowing down, but maybe I just don't play for long enough yet (my comeback chops don't really support practice sessions longer than about an hour at a time). I haven't yet tried the carnauba wax for the outers, because I haven't felt a need. I apply a light coat of BERP very infrequently, and wipe off excess after working it in a bit. That's it, and the slide never slows for me. When the sound of the slide changes very slightly, I wipe down the inners, swab out the outers, and reapply BERP. It is much less effort, for me, than a brass slide lube routine.

I honestly hadn't noticed the uneven cork barrels before, but I checked my JJ build after watching the video and sure enough - they are about a slide-lock's width different. That I never noticed maybe says more about me than it does about the horn, but I have no trouble with the length difference. I actually like have a slightly longer lower barrel, with the curved cross bar, as it gives my hand (not small) plenty of room to comfortably rest, without danger of snagging my pinky in a quick slide retraction. I could see making the upper barrel slightly longer to have them match, but I wouldn't make the lower any shorter. For the sharpness of the inside edge of the barrel - I can't say that mine reflects that. The inside edge is rounded and comfortable... not that I'd want to test things by getting my hand in the way, but I don't imagine an accidental pinch would feel any different from a brass slide (if anything, I'd wager the brass would hurt worse with more mass/inertia behind it).

Maybe I just have long arms, but I don't have any trouble reaching the spit valve. I noticed the shorter throw, but I can't say it has given me any particular problems, apart from a wider dispersion radius. The valve empties easily, and in general does what I would expect it to do. I don't think much of it - for good or ill.

I did (very briefly) try pairing the JJ slide with my 6h bell, and even on a small bore tenor, the balance (back-heavy and canted left) was terrible in that combination. I can only imagine how bad balance would be in a large bore, much less a bass trombone. For me, going full carbon build works great. No balance issues at all on my JJ, and I like the sound. Overall, I love the Butler horns, and I can't see myself ever going back to brass. That's from a complete amateur, comeback player, with what is probably a good dose of confirmation bias... but, that's my take.

In any case - I love your videos, and I hope you do more of them.

[Mv2541]

Do you think the slots being wide is more to do with the leadpipe/weird inner slide than the CF outers? I have been thinking about pulling the trigger on a .525 outer but really wouldn’t wanna ever widen the slots.

[Burgerbob]

Do you think the slots being wide is more to do with the leadpipe/weird inner slide than the CF outers? I have been thinking about pulling the trigger on a .525 outer but really wouldn’t wanna ever widen the slots.

Good question! I have also used the outer on a couple other slides (Holton 185 and 50 slides), but didn't do a bunch of playing or testing that way. I'll get back to you.

[Mv2541]

Do you think the slots being wide is more to do with the leadpipe/weird inner slide than the CF outers? I have been thinking about pulling the trigger on a .525 outer but really wouldn’t wanna ever widen the slots.

Good question! I have also used the outer on a couple other slides (Holton 185 and 50 slides), but didn't do a bunch of playing or testing that way. I'll get back to you.

Thanks dude! If it is the outer slide I wonder if it’s in the shape/sizing of the crook. Also I wonder if he even makes a bunch of different crooks for the different small bore sizes?

[elmsandr]

Do you think the slots being wide is more to do with the leadpipe/weird inner slide than the CF outers? I have been thinking about pulling the trigger on a .525 outer but really wouldn’t wanna ever widen the slots.

I mean, the handgrip is a little weird and the overall stagger of the corkbarrels is just wrong, but there is nothing weird about the materials or construction of the inners, just some bad ideas.

For example on the stagger; the mouthpiece is in the wrong place relative to the taper. That is, this slide won’t fit in a case that has the normal offset positions for leadpipe and the bell tenon (like a shires screwbell case).

Cheers,
Andy

[Burgerbob]

Thanks dude! If it is the outer slide I wonder if it’s in the shape/sizing of the crook. Also I wonder if he even makes a bunch of different crooks for the different small bore sizes?

Finally got the time to get all the horns and slides out. I tried the carbon outer on my Olds/Bach .554/562 (thread incoming!), but also tried THAT outer (Bach 50 with nickel crook) on the Butler inner. I put the carbon on my 185 also.

Carbon outer: wider slots for sure. This does a few things. Glissing without losing the center is much more difficult... not that this comes up super often, but this is where the slots really show themselves the most. It's a bit more flexible, but in an LT16M way, where the partials seem to butt up right against each other and almost overlap. This makes the low range more open and accessible on bass trombone, FWIW. Sounds good, until you lose a slot. Response is crazy fast in all ranges.

Brass outer/nickel outer: Much more secure in slots. What you lose in flexibility, you gain in confidence. I find myself typically just more accurate in slot, pitch, articulation with these. Heavier in sound, heavier in response, heavier in action.

The ergonomic DIS-advantage of the carbon (for me) can not be understated- it's nigh-unplayable on my Olsen axial 50 due to the weight balance.

Disclaimers: This is all on bass trombone. I have a feeling that on tenor, small medium or large, it would be a bit different story. I am also quite, quite used to playing brass outers on my slides (as most people would be) and can't say that I am 100% playing the carbon the best possible way.

I may be putting together a 50BL single at some point in the future- I have to wonder if the less drastic balance difference will work better with that setup (like it may with tenor).

[Mv2541]

Thanks for this! I still wonder what would make the slots with carbon outers so wide. Definitely a bummer for me, but I’ll probably ping them to ask what the crook is like on bass vs on the different tenor sizes.

I also totally see the balance being an issue; it’s why I haven’t gone screwbell although that balance is more of a front to back issue.