Doodle tonguing in different ranges

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AndrewMeronek
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Doodle tonguing in different ranges

Post by AndrewMeronek » Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:02 pm

Doing some articulation/speed exercises, and I realized today that in my high range, while my regular tongue location doesn't really have to change where the tip contacts my hard palette behind my teeth, during doodle tonguing this contact point creeps back in my mouth, and is probably the reason why I've had issues doodle-tonguing passages that have large register shifts (which occur pretty rarely, but . . .).

I don't think this is something I want to keep doing. It certainly doesn't feel right, but trying to correct for it by keeping my tongue tip in place during doodling makes notes not speak right in that register. I think it has something to do with a changing vowel position? For doodlers on here, has anyone had to deal with this?

Edit: I can do it - keep tongue tip position constant, but this is putting *A LOT* of tension in the center/back of my tongue. Is this just a muscle use thing? Have I not been doing it right?
“All musicians are subconsciously mathematicians.”

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Zandit75
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Re: Doodle tonguing in different ranges

Post by Zandit75 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:33 pm

Do you have an example of doodle tonguing? Can't say I've ever heard of the term.
AndrewMeronek
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Re: Doodle tonguing in different ranges

Post by AndrewMeronek » Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:06 pm

From one of the masters:
“All musicians are subconsciously mathematicians.”

- Thelonious Monk
baileyman
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Re: Doodle tonguing in different ranges

Post by baileyman » Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:37 am

Here's my take:

All notes speak best when the little cavity in the mouth is in tune with the partial you're trying to play on the horn. (This tuning thing is blatantly obvious to me now, but I realize a couple years ago it would have sounded impossible.) And they speak with seemingly no effort. (Though I know that's not true because fatigue happens.) When it's in tune, the sound is vibrant, colorful, brilliant, a great pleasure.

The tuning changes with pitch, but not exactly as in whistling because there's other stuff going on, mostly, I suspect, a gradual change in vibrating mass and tension from range to range. (Not so much by note, but by range, though every note is really different.)

As a result, the doodle has to follow the tuning in order to operate well.

So, here's the exercise yielding the most benefit for me these days:

Using the old flexibiity as a model, in partials, 324354323. Or if 2 does not speak well, try 435465434. Play this slowly in time prompting the partial changes using only tongue motion (though I am sure other stuff will be at work, it feels like all tongue). After that feels like it's working, at the same tempo, play double time. After that's working, double again. Alternate tempos. Then all positions, all partial start notes.

Then overlay tongue articulation on this. You can tell if it's overlaid by whether you can alternate between tongue tuning and tongue articulation without congestion. The tongue articulation that works is one that does not interfere with the basic tongue tuning. (This goes for every style of tonguing.) What seems to be happening? The tongue articulation has to maintain a mouth cavity that resembles the one in basic tongue tuning to promote pitch selection but that also allows the articulation to happen seamlessly.

I'm afraid you just have to find your own solution among these words, though. Like swimming, it's really hard to analyze what you're doing. Feel and sound are the only things I think I can rely on. For me this process has led to almost daily revelations about things that work in all kinds of tonguing, most surprisingly and significantly, single tonguing.

Today's workout ended with an expansion of this exercise:

32435432 45342345 (inverted) 43546543 56453456 54657654 67564567 65768765 786756787

slurred and doodled, single breath in tempo. Later today I'll repeat in singles. Somewhere in 7 or 8 the doodle range poops out I think because I haven't found the wiggle that does not disturb the tuning there.
AndrewMeronek
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Re: Doodle tonguing in different ranges

Post by AndrewMeronek » Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:32 pm

Baileyman - yeah, that's pretty much my take as well. I'm wondering if my doodling is causing my vowel to shift in that register due to the tongue motion. Practicing some different placements for the "l" syllable to see if I can get less severe arch in the center/back of my tongue, to be more similar to my single tongue.

Although, in terms of my exercises, lately I prefer working on patterns that more directly translate to being useful in my goal playing. Basically, lick exercises through all keys and ranges instead of just scale or partial drills.
“All musicians are subconsciously mathematicians.”

- Thelonious Monk
timothy42b
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Re: Doodle tonguing in different ranges

Post by timothy42b » Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:15 am

baileyman wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:37 am
Here's my take:

All notes speak best when the little cavity in the mouth is in tune with the partial you're trying to play on the horn. (This tuning thing is blatantly obvious to me now, but I realize a couple years ago it would have sounded impossible.) And they speak with seemingly no effort. (Though I know that's not true because fatigue happens.) When it's in tune, the sound is vibrant, colorful, brilliant, a great pleasure.

<snip>
Using the old flexibiity as a model, in partials, 324354323. Or if 2 does not speak well, try 435465434. Play this slowly in time prompting the partial changes using only tongue motion (though I am sure other stuff will be at work, it feels like all tongue).
Interesting. Doug said something similar to me in a lesson once, that if I got the tongue position right it would feel like I could play forever. Obviously I haven't got there yet.

I tried your exercise this morning while doing my routine, paying attention to my tongue. Well, I couldn't really track tongue position, but I noticed I was making clear vowel changes on those different partials. That wasn't deliberate but when I paid attention I could feel it happening. Is that the same thing?

This seems related to sabutin's suggestion to attend to vocal overtones.

I really struggled with fatigue in Monday night's rehearsal, and that hasn't normally been a problem. It's just a two hour rehearsal on first, but ordinary concert band music, not big band range or anything. I was thinking I was doing something wrong with chops angle due to trying to see conductor and music at the same time, also I've lost another 10 pounds and sometimes that affects endurance. I dunno.
baileyman
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Re: Doodle tonguing in different ranges

Post by baileyman » Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:34 am

AndrewMeronek wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:32 pm
Baileyman - yeah, that's pretty much my take as well. I'm wondering if my doodling is causing my vowel to shift in that register due to the tongue motion. Practicing some different placements for the "l" syllable to see if I can get less severe arch in the center/back of my tongue, to be more similar to my single tongue....
Seems like a couple things may help.

Going up especially over several partials I feel a general forward movement of the entire flop. (And sometimes the tongue may be flat, though I can't see it to be sure!) May be worth experimenting with that.

There's quite a range of articulation results. Loud, cracking and distinct. Soft, smooth and mushy. It's worth trying to find the least amount of distinction that works. One place where very little distinction works is up and down four partials in something like triplets, like 345 654 3. This is also for me a test. If I get the four partials feeling good and sounding good, chances are whatever else I think of will be ready to go. Sometimes everything gets congested in there and it takes a while for me to adjust.
baileyman
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Re: Doodle tonguing in different ranges

Post by baileyman » Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:39 am

timothy42b wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:15 am
...

Interesting. Doug said something similar to me in a lesson once, that if I got the tongue position right it would feel like I could play forever. Obviously I haven't got there yet.

I tried your exercise this morning while doing my routine, paying attention to my tongue. Well, I couldn't really track tongue position, but I noticed I was making clear vowel changes on those different partials. That wasn't deliberate but when I paid attention I could feel it happening. Is that the same thing?

...
Seems like the same thing. You can make it simpler and just do two partials. Once they snap in response to the tongue you'll be on your way.
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