Lip Vibrato

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Rusty
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Lip Vibrato

Post by Rusty »

What are your go to exercises for lip vibrato? I’ve done some exercises playing vibrato to a certain sub-division (ie. quaver triplets over crotchets), but wonder if there are other specific approaches used by classical players?
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Burgerbob
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Re: Lip Vibrato

Post by Burgerbob »

Record it and listen back, both isolated and in context. What does it sound like? Does it sound like you think it does? Like a great singer?
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
musicofnote
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Re: Lip Vibrato

Post by musicofnote »

Lip vibrato? (grin) I'm trying to get rid of it. At my age (almost 70) it one reason why I stopped playing in public: sporadic uncontrollable old-man-lip-tremors.

But if you're speaking about jaw vibrato, this was something I perfected as a trumpet player and has served me better than a slide vibrato. Just my $.02.
Mostly:
Yamaha Xeno 822G with a Greg Black 1 3/8 medium or Wedge 110G Gen 2 (.300" throat)

Very seldom:
Rath R400 with a Wedge 4G

"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person who is doing it."
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hyperbolica
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Re: Lip Vibrato

Post by hyperbolica »

Vibrato can be a divisive thing. The biggest thing is knowing when to and being able to turn it off. It can easily become a bad or uncontrollable habit. A friend of mine does not get to play with some groups because of his uncontrolled slide vibrato.

Don't use it in section playing except as requested in big band. Usually only the lead player does it, and usually only for solos. It's a question of taste or style, but only add it to the last 1/3 of long held notes.

As for lip vs slide, lip is often considered classical technique and slide is for jazz.

Rochut is a good place to practice it, but also practice without. Don't let it become an uncontrolled habit.
Rusty
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Re: Lip Vibrato

Post by Rusty »

I’m mainly a lead/commercial player and slide vibrato comes naturally to me, I guess I just wondered if classically trained players learnt or practiced it in a certain way besides just hearing it done and copying it?

I’ve also played with other players, mainly trumpet, who have a wide vibrato on everything and it can be a nightmare to lock in to, sounds great on a melodic solo line but not so much in a section.
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hyperbolica
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Re: Lip Vibrato

Post by hyperbolica »

Rusty wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:57 am I’m mainly a lead/commercial player and slide vibrato comes naturally to me, I guess I just wondered if classically trained players learnt or practiced it in a certain way besides just hearing it done and copying it?

I’ve also played with other players, mainly trumpet, who have a wide vibrato on everything and it can be a nightmare to lock in to, sounds great on a melodic solo line but not so much in a section.
I was mainly a classical player, and learned by listening to other players and from private lessons. Mom was a soprano, and dad played violin, so I had a lot of bad examples for trombone vibrato. "Lip" vibrato can be done mostly by moving the lower jaw, although the tongue height also comes into it. I think some people claim to use the diaphragm/air column to get vibrato, like a singer or a flute player. Slide vibrato in strictly classical setting is seen as kind of tacky, but you can get away with it in orchestral Gershwinn or Ellington. In something like Russian Easter - lip vibrato.

norbie2018
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Re: Lip Vibrato

Post by norbie2018 »

Listen to trombone vibrato you want to emulate then record yourself playing with vibrato. Practice getting into it and out of it as well. As suggested, record yourself and listen until the sounds coming out of your bell match the sound in your head.
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Doug Elliott
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Re: Lip Vibrato

Post by Doug Elliott »

And record from a distance too. Vibrato comes across differently close up and farther away.
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JacobsianApostle
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Re: Lip Vibrato

Post by JacobsianApostle »

There are a lot of different kinds oflip vibrato that use the technique differently. I think that the best way to learn is through learning/transcribing melodies as they’re played/sung. You can take even one phrase that you like - doesn’t have to be a trombonist - and listen/play it over and over again really focusing on the details of the vibrato. As others have already said, record yourself and listen back to hear if it’s really coming through the way you imagine.

Plenty of lip vibrato in jazz. I play jazz and do lip vibrato pretty much exclusively. If you listen to the Lincoln center trombone section, all three of them are using lip vibrato heavily in their parts. The really classic Ellington trombone section sound is embodied by Lawrence Brown, who had a tight, fast and even lip vibrato which I imagine had to come from either the classical string playing of the day or from the saxophonists who were already imitating it. The result feels somewhat classical; stately, elegant, sentimental but never saccharine - it’s a crucial part of the Ellington sound.

There are plenty other styles of lip vibrato but that’s just the example which I like the most. Again, the key is listening in detail. Work with melodies and parts of melodies to try and mimic the accent of different musicians. E.g. listen to Lester Young play a melody then play it back and really make it sound like Lester Young.
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Re: Lip Vibrato

Post by musicofnote »

hyperbolica wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:30 am
Rusty wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:57 am I’m mainly a lead/commercial player and slide vibrato comes naturally to me, I guess I just wondered if classically trained players learnt or practiced it in a certain way besides just hearing it done and copying it?

I’ve also played with other players, mainly trumpet, who have a wide vibrato on everything and it can be a nightmare to lock in to, sounds great on a melodic solo line but not so much in a section.
...In something like Russian Easter - lip vibrato.

Gorgeous, warm and very subtile sound. Love it.
Mostly:
Yamaha Xeno 822G with a Greg Black 1 3/8 medium or Wedge 110G Gen 2 (.300" throat)

Very seldom:
Rath R400 with a Wedge 4G

"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person who is doing it."
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harrisonreed
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Re: Lip Vibrato

Post by harrisonreed »

It's done with the jaw and tongue arch. Good practice is to establish your note first without vibrato, and then let it creep in tastefully towards the end, but it's such a personal and situational thing. Sometimes fat lip vibrato through the whole note is good. Sometimes a final note with ZERO vibrato in a line otherwise full of vibrato can be the best part of an entire piece. I'm not sure the british brass band sort of quavery vibrato is ever good.

I would listen a lot to singers, violinists, cellists, and off course trombonists, to hear how to do vibrato in a variety of ways (musically), and imitate that, and then immediately learn how to play without any vibrato at all. Learning to do something on purpose so that you can then turn it off at will makes it doubly with learning.

The three banes of the trombonist are playing out of tune, trying to play too dark and open, and not knowing how to turn off your vibrato.

Crazy4Tbone86
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Re: Lip Vibrato

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 »

I have never used lip vibrato. To me it can be easily take on a “nanny goat” quality. Since I have been working with a British-style brass band lately, I have been listening to many British brass band recordings. I agree with Harrison that the style many of those bands use (to my ear, it sounds like a fast lip vibrato) is not necessarily desirable. I find it can be a bit overwhelming because it doesn’t sound like they have the ability to turn it off.

I have always preferred either slide vibrato for jazz/pop, or air vibrato for classical. Since 85% of my work is classical, I’ll leave the slide vibrato to the jazz members who can play circles around me in that genre. For teaching air vibrato, I always start with the foundation of a controlled, brick-shaped note. A trombonist has no business playing with vibrato if they are unable to hold a note absolutely steady. From there, we take a long note and pulsate it with little crescendos and decrescendos, the high point of intensity being in quarter notes at a slow speed. After that is under control, we speed up the high points to eighth notes, triplets, and sixteenth notes. Through this process, it is always important to return to the foundation skill of playing a steady not with no wiggle. At a higher level we discuss when to add vibrato, how fast it should be and how intense it should (I’m a strong believer in subtlety). In the process of teaching vibrato, I always check for little or no movement of the jaw or lips, because that is heading in the direction of a lip vibrato.

I think it is a important to mention that I try to teach my students to have open mind about lip vibrato. I don’t teach it because I don’t use it…….thus, I cannot consider myself an expert on it. I believe some players are able to utilize it very well (the Russian Easter video is a good example of that). I have had students go to other teachers that taught lip vibrato. In the end, it is part of every player’s journey to gather information from multiple sources and process/use that information in their own way.
Brian D. Hinkley - Player, Teacher, Technician and Trombone Enthusiast
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Mr412
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Re: Lip Vibrato

Post by Mr412 »

For my taste, nearly everyone uses some method of vibrato WAY too much. If you have an excellent sound, you really shouldn't need very much - if any. Some, I feel, use it to mask not having a clue where the true pitch center is. Unless the player is trying for a special effect, I believe less is more of whatever kind you like.
Glennlewis
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Re: Lip Vibrato

Post by Glennlewis »

Flute player after an in class recital prep performance last week asks the class if we noticed is jaw trembling, says it’s a nervous tic. I responded brass players refer to it as vibrato.
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