The realities of learning to double on bass

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Slyde
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The realities of learning to double on bass

Post by Slyde »

I have played on a small bore 500 horn for many years. Mainly lead and 2nd in big bands and commercial. I have never owned or played a proper bass horn but have on occasions picked up and toyed with a smaller .547 bore for an hour or two. Having problems finding deps for bass in our band and so have been toying with the idea of learning to double on bass to cover that chair when required. I also get called to dep for others on 3rd bone elsewhere on occasion. Now it seems to me that bass is a different beast and a specialist chair and maybe I'm kidding myself to think I can do a decent job of this without spending more time than I actually have to spare. So I'm interested to hear what the experience is of others who have tried this and what sort of horn would suit that brief of "occasional bass dep and some 3rd bone" before I shell out cash on a horn that becomes an ornament.
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hyperbolica
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Re: The realities of learning to double on bass

Post by hyperbolica »

There are different levels of doubling on bass bone. The first level is going to require a lot of air and different chops.

If you can get past that, the articulations and lip slurs are the next hurdle.

Coming from small bore to bass is going to be a lot of work. Air, air, air.

Mouthpiece Choice will be important. Don't get sucked in to the big equipment claims that some will make. Use the smallest equipment that allows you to get the job done. Practice can't be replaced by equipment.
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BGuttman
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Re: The realities of learning to double on bass

Post by BGuttman »

I've done the reverse. I'm primarily a bass trombonist, but have moved to play tenor in many applications. You can do it. You will need to learn the intricacies of bass trombone, which means learning the F attachment positions, and positions with the double valve (if you have one). You need to learn to play on a relatively large mouthpiece to make the lower register resonate. The bass trombone generally gets paired with the baritone sax in many licks in Jazz Band. The bass trombone can out play a baritone sax (our range is much wider) but they honk louder.

If you are not familiar with the f-attachment positions, you will need a good tutor. I used Allen Ostrander's "F-Attachment and Bass Trombone" to learn the F side, and Alan Raph's "The Double Valve Bass Trombone" to learn the Gb side (my horn in an Indy).

Don't expect to simply sit down and be George Roberts. It takes time and care to become a passable bass trombonist.

I read in Denis Wick's book that you could just be a "trombonist" and learn to play all the different instruments (Alto, Tenor, Bass, Euphonium, Bass Trumpet) as needed. It's a nice skill to be that versatile.
Bruce Guttman
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Burgerbob
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Re: The realities of learning to double on bass

Post by Burgerbob »

It's just another trombone. One that requires some changes from you, but it's still got all the same basics.
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OneTon
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Re: The realities of learning to double on bass

Post by OneTon »

Doubling can be accomplished on a 0.547 horn with single f attachment, unless you are subbing for BBC recordings. I did it but I eventually got a King Duo-Gravis. I would still play a gig on the Bach 42B if the King were not available. It takes a while to adapt. Humans do it. So can you.
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boneagain
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Re: The realities of learning to double on bass

Post by boneagain »

When you sub ("dep?") do you want to fill the chair or play the part?

Your approach to the third or fourth book will make more difference than the instrument. Clearly, the instrument CAN make a difference. If the charts have tons of exposed passages with notes you can't reach with one trigger, you are toast.

But even if you buy a horn that CAN reach all the notes, and YOU can reach hall the notes, that still won't necessarily mean you do more than "fill the chair."

My reason for saying this is grounded in melody, harmony, and counterpoint. Think back over the lead and 2nd books you have covered in a four horn section. Where is the lion's share of the melody? Who puts in the majority of the "color" in the harmony? Where does the counterpoint come from?

The bass trombone part has a lot of functional aspects that take a slightly different listening approach from the upper parts. If you put the same punch into a homophonic soli as you do in a heavily counterpointed section with bass-bari-bass trombone against the world you will not be very popular with the section :)

As for "... more time than I actually have... "

The functional aspect is something you can practice in time you already spend without even getting a new horn. A big part is just listening to REALLY hear what is going on down there. You can listen a little more intently to recordings you already enjoy, and during rehearsals with you on an upper voice. Once you hear the bass function more clearly you can figure out where to spend limited practice time to make valve/slide combinations happen.

BTW: if you DO invest in a "true" bass, you might consider a "dependent" horn. Independent rotors give more technical options, but every added technical option takes more time to practice. Just a thought.
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Re: The realities of learning to double on bass

Post by imsevimse »

Read this as my advice, based on my journey, how I started to learn to double alto, tenor and bass. Others might do it differently of course.

I began on tenor 1975 and started doubling for real 1989 when I bought my first bass trombone. I'll try now to recall what it felt like when I started. I remember I had a difficult time to go back and forth between the different mouthpieces so I came up to an order to practice them that began with tenor end continued with bass. Rather soon I also added alto. My procedure was I started with the smallest mouthpiece and continued with the larger ones (I've heard of others who have done the reverse so it is probably best thing to begin where you feel more comfortable, so best to figure that out first). To start with the smallest and go bigger during the day was the thing that made it possible AT ALL for me in the beginning. It just was natural for me because after I had practiced my bass on a Bach 1 1/2 size mouthpiece I could not get the lips together to fit my Bach 12E to play alto. I also remember I got tired from playing and then often the high register was what first failed me. It seemed to be good at the time to just start high and go down as instruments and mouthpieces became larger. I practiced and planned my doubling like this for several years until I got more comfortable on valves and slide positions. After I had learned the valves and positions I started to practice more on the switching in itself to have as a goal to be independent of mouthpiece and to be able to play alto, tenor and bass in any order. This was actually very good for my emboushure, so my playing got a lot better from that period of focusing on just switching back and fourth. I think it had to do with resetting the emboushure many times during the day. That made me think and focus a lot on the differences that I had to do to adopt fast. Makes me wonder now if that would have been an even better way to start? :idk: . Anyway, at the time the path I took in the start was what I thought to be the only possible.

Now in 2022 I do not think much of the alto, tenor and bass as that different, because adjustments are now done automatic and very fast. That gives me a feeling that the instruments are played the same and just played different because of different registers. At some sense that is true but the difference in bore size and demands between what you have to do on an alto and a bass are so big and they deal with complete different aspects of playing, different registers and different attitude because of different roles and the bass takes a lot of air compared to an alto where air lasts forever.
On an alto the high register is what's interesting and demands a lot of work and on the bass it is the valve and beyond that needs work. The tenor is just between.

When I learned, then I had to mentally handle them differently so I guess it is what some needs to do. To me I now continue this journey with trumpet to tuba and this now gives me a lot of fun as well as work. Later when I can forget about the adjustments I now struggle to learn, then I will hopefully think of them just as different musical tools and technique will then take care of itself.

Insights?

For me;
1) I have to practice all instruments I want to double. This will take more time and might lead to not enough practice on each instrument. I don't know this yet but I can see that trumpet, cornet, flugelhorn, french horn and tuba slows down overall progress a bit.

2) It is important (what I think) to practice all switches a lot, and to go back and forth. I can see that when number of instruments now get very high this alone will take a lot of time. My plan is to be completely independent of all mouthpiece sizes and I'm not there on the smallest. Right now trumpet is my worst switch that can ruin playing on the other instruments if I'm not careful. I can not play for very long, maybe 30-40 minutes is enough. When practice switch maybe 5 minutes is enough on the trumpet.

3) I can tell you that I sometimes felt I had to give up doubling bass trombone because of bad result, and in the beginning friends maybe also have wished I had stop playing the bass or even the alto, but I didn't give up.
Now trumpet is at that level but my belief is eventually it will happen and then it is not such a big deal so one insight is simply: "Don't give up!"

/Tom
2bobone
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Re: The realities of learning to double on bass

Post by 2bobone »

It is a comfort to read "Slyde's" post about bass trombone : "Now it seems to me that bass is a different beast and a specialist chair and maybe I'm kidding myself to think I can do a decent job of this without spending more time than I actually have to spare." I think he really gets it !
I'm totally aware that James Morrison's incredible versatility on ALL brass instruments is not the norm, but for the rest of us mortals, achieving such excellence on such disparate instruments is only a dream. I recall "FineTales" posting an incredible montage of his brass talent that was truly amazing, but again, such a dazzling display is a rarity, not the norm.
Bass trombone parts aren't just the lowest parts in the trombone section, they often require techniques that demand a lot of specialization to play at all. Pat Williams' "Saturday NIght" or "Mandeville" or most any of Tom Kubis' arrangements come to mind. "Uptown Funk" has a bass trombone part that will challenge any bass trombonist who can endure its non-stop blow. Excursions into the lowest contra register of the bass is encountered more often as arrangers embrace the possibility and players oblige. The next step is to incorporate the contrabass trombone as a regular member of the trombone section !
John LaMontaine wrote a couple of solo D Flats an octave below the D Flat below the bass staff for the bass trombone in his "Wilderness Journal" ---- muted as well !. Thankfully, it was in a movement called "Frogs" so the result was acceptably "Froggy" sounding. Composers keep stretching the limits and performers keep obliging. Where will it ever end ?
Slyde
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Re: The realities of learning to double on bass

Post by Slyde »

Great insights guys, particularly boneagain. Yes the issue is to be at a level of proficiency that actually adds something to the section sonically, not just fill the chair. I’m inclined to think that this journey needs to start on a 547 horn rather than a double valve bass. Of course practice = results in this game, but if you are an amateur with a busy day job there is a reality to how much time you have to spend even on your principal horn. Guess only I can weigh that up.
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ithinknot
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Re: The realities of learning to double on bass

Post by ithinknot »

Slyde wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 12:13 pm I’m inclined to think that this journey needs to start on a 547 horn rather than a double valve bass
...which might make sense if that was a horn you already had and knew your way around, but you
Slyde wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 4:34 pm have on occasions picked up and toyed with a smaller .547 bore for an hour or two
...so, if you don't already have a large tenor, and the immediate need is for a big band bass dep, you might as well get the right tool for the known job. Depends on the band's rep - yes, if there are a lot of modern charts you really ought to get two valves and learn your way round them, but if it's mostly classic stuff then a nice single would do the job just fine.

Burgerbob wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 7:48 pm It's just another trombone. One that requires some changes from you, but it's still got all the same basics.
Absolutely... and then beyond that point, the real trick to doubling of any sort is to conceptualize all differences as musical (/'performance practice') differences wherever possible. That's not to ignore the technical requirements, but to understand and prioritize them within a musical context. It's not 'what am I doing with my air' in the first instance; it's 'what's the role and sound concept of this part'... within that framework some things take care of themselves, and the things holding you back become glaringly obvious and can be addressed discretely.
imsevimse
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Re: The realities of learning to double on bass

Post by imsevimse »

I almost forgot another insight from my doubling experience.

4) During the pandemic I bought a trumpet, a cornert, a flugelhorn and a french horn and I played them every day. This was for about 1,5 years when I was at home and it was done as an experiment to see how much I could learn. In the beginning I practiced trombone too but after a couple of months I thought I should concentrate on the newer instruments and take a break from trombone. I thought my skills on trombone were solid enough so I would not forget how to do that. Nothing could be more wrong. After a couple of months with no practice on trombone I took it up again but then I noticed I had lost a lot of the security in the high register. I took that serious and put a couple of weeks on the trombone exclusively to get my chops back together. Lessons learned. I have to practice ALL the instruments I want to play or I might loose some things that I've learned. After that I now practice trombone as the first thing I do and the last thing I do. This way I can check the technique still works on the instrument that is most important to me. And of course time is limited so even though the best thing is to practice all my instruments every day it is not possible. I do the best I can to keep and evolve from what I've learnt during those 1,5 years.
I guess this could be a good thing too when learning bass trombone as a second instrument, to start and end on the tenor trombone if that is your main instrument.

/Tom
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robcat2075
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Re: The realities of learning to double on bass

Post by robcat2075 »

Double? Obviously, some people do and don't stink up the place.

When I started bass trombone I presumed I was going to still play both but about six months in my teacher encouraged me to drop the tenor entirely and I recognized I couldn't do the bass trombone well and still put in the time to keep the tenor playing in shape.

There wasn't a shortage of tenor players around so it wasn't like continuing to woodshed the tenor was filling any need anyone had.
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brtnats
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Re: The realities of learning to double on bass

Post by brtnats »

I use a Yamaha 822G for just such a task. Double dependent or single, good on 3rd, great on bass. Easy switch from tenor, as it’s not a huge bass. I use a pretty big mouthpiece on it. Plays well from high tenor to pedal D.
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