Flat chin?

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imsevimse
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Flat chin?

Post by imsevimse »

Hi

Chin "pull down and flat" is a big difference to me. This is the most rewarding change I've ever done, since I completely changed from a smile emboushure in the early 80-ies.

As soon as I could "pull down" and felt the activity in the chin it also meant an immediate improvement. It made my tone "deeper" especially in the middle and lower register and also seams to save me a lot of air. It takes less air to play the same volume after this.

In the high register I've sort of done a bit of this already but then I felt the lips to be more like pointing into the mouthpiece and that activity also sort of "pulled down" the bottom lip and help to get me a better aperture. It was simething that made higher notes easier when I discovered this a few years ago.

The change now most helps control in my middle and low register but it helps sound everywhere.

After I got the expression "flat chin" explained I've added a lot of playing in the middle and low registers now to check I do not forget this.

To me the "flat chin/pull down" activity now adds to things
1 better control in the middle and lower register.
2 lower fundamentals to my sound everywhere, gives a deeper sound..

A problem at the moment is I can play without that activity too. Positive is I can change at will. Negative is I easy forget. I do forget when there are lots of notes to read and when there are lots of noise because then I can not hear myself good enough. At the moment I need the feedback to hear myself so I do this right. In a year I hope it comes natural and I do not have to concentrate as much as I do now.

I now need a longer warmup of long tones to activate the 'flat chin" concept before I start to practice. One to three minutes has been my warmup for many years, but I feel I now have to do about 20 minutes in the middle and low registers to be sure I establish the NEW blow.

Since this is in an early stage of "flat chin" (couple of weeks) I have decided not to change a lot between mouthpieces. I let the cornet, trumpet and french horn rest and just pick them up for short sessions AFTER I've played trombone, not before. I also choose to concentrate on the small tenor with the Nils Landgren Yamaha mouthpiece.

I put a lot of work in the middle and low registers, because it is there I feel I need the activity most for control, but it helps control, sound and air anywhere.

I feel the smaller mouthpieces to be less tolerant with sound that's why I limit my practice to be on this mouthpiece. I have to struggle more to "find" the new deeper sound in a small mouthpiece compared to a deeper. My belief is if I can do this on a 11c-ish mouthpiece I can do it easier on larger pieces after - not sure about vice versa. My belief and experience is also that larger mouthpieces camouflage errors with sound, the same errors that becomes prominent on smaller mouthpieces. Smaller mouthpieces on the contrary have other advantages compared to larger ones.

I also feel I can back off a bit with air and that helps increase the volume. I experiment to seek the spot where less air increases the sound. I don't know if that can be understood, but I have found when I play long tones and in combination with concepts "use a flat chin/pull down", "back off a bit with mouthpiece pressure", "use a relaxed tounge" and of course "put the slide at exact right spot" I can make the sound bigger with less air

/Tom
Last edited by imsevimse on Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:56 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Doug Elliott
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Re: Flat chin?

Post by Doug Elliott »

Try adding the feel of pushing your jaw forward to stretch the chin. The combination of "pull down" and a little jaw push forward is usually a lot more successful than just "trying to flatten your chin."
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imsevimse
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Re: Flat chin?

Post by imsevimse »

Doug Elliott wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 9:27 am Try adding the feel of pushing your jaw forward to stretch the chin. The combination of "pull down" and a little jaw push forward is usually a lot more successful than just "trying to flatten your chin."
Will do.
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Re: Flat chin?

Post by timothy42b »

I have been working very hard on this since Doug pointed it out Tuesday. I have a mirror on the stand and a bright pole lamp just behind it, so I can see my chin. It's like learning to play all over again though.

It seems where the teeth meet the lower lip makes a difference. I think part of flattening is pulling chin down, part is stretching lip up. When Doug takes a breath his corners move horizontally, mine go up a bit naturally so I'm trying for the horizontal.
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Burgerbob
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Re: Flat chin?

Post by Burgerbob »

This was a big find for me as well. I kept pairing it with too much pressure, though, so it would work really well for 15 minutes and then I would be gassed. It's taken a while to figure out how to keep things supple at the same time.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
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Doug Elliott
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Re: Flat chin?

Post by Doug Elliott »

The way you inhale comes into play concerning the chin. It took me a long time to learn to open the corners enough while pulling them back to breathe, but it's worth the effort. If your corners go up naturally, instead of fighting it try to also pull downward to open more. The chin naturally relaxes some. Then the action of pushing forward again to play should combine to flatten the chin.
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robcat2075
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Re: Flat chin?

Post by robcat2075 »

"Point your chin like your father does when he's shaving!"

That's how my woodwinds pedagogy teacher said to explain this maneuver, which is also a thing for clarinet embouchure.

It was utterly ineffective on middle school girls who had never seen anyone shave but... for me, it was a clear metaphor.
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ithinknot
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Re: Flat chin?

Post by ithinknot »

Somewhat related, as someone working on this sort of thing recently...

I'd always let the gooseneck rest against my humanneck, and basically put as little left hand effort into holding the instrument as I could get away with. From behind the mouthpiece - and assuming 90 deg between bell and slide - very '10 to 1'.

I'd noticed that Doug (and some others) were more '5 to 2', so tried it. Removing the neck crutch forced me to find stability on the face and consistently distribute pressure across the teeth, and improved everything. (And on bass, corresponded to an extra couple of semitones of smooth access in and out of the Marianas Trench.) At this point, all the other stuff I'd been working on (bringing the jaw forward and the horn angle up, which was improving matters but hadn't felt consistent) made total sense.

Obviously, superficial neck contact wouldn't be a problem in itself, but allowing it to become loadbearing - at least in my case - meant that otherwise reasonable embouchure motion was also inadvertently changing the angle of pressure on top vs bottom teeth, which wasn't helping at all.

I'm sure this is embarrassingly obvious to many, and possibly not explained very well, but it might be of use to someone.
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Savio
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Re: Flat chin?

Post by Savio »

Im little unsure what flat chin really means! Since I’m a teacher I should know :roll: is it to roll the under lip a little over the lower lip? I’m not exactly doing that, but I have nearly all muscles around the lips a bit engaged.

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Oslide
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Re: Flat chin?

Post by Oslide »

Doug Elliott wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 9:56 am The way you inhale comes into play concerning the chin. It took me a long time to learn to open the corners enough while pulling them back to breathe, but it's worth the effort. If your corners go up naturally, instead of fighting it try to also pull downward to open more. The chin naturally relaxes some. Then the action of pushing forward again to play should combine to flatten the chin.
Reading your description reminds me of a video showing short close-up views of Derek Watkins doing - I believe - exactly this, at 0:52 and even better visible at 1:58.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2Qi_KR8eCc
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Doug Elliott
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Re: Flat chin?

Post by Doug Elliott »

Yes that's a good example.
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Oslide
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Re: Flat chin?

Post by Oslide »

I wonder if the short plugging of the tongue between the lips which Watkins shows at 2:11 is an essential part of setting up his embouchure, beyond simply wetting his lips? I've seen this done by quite a few trumpet players, e.g. Harry James.
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Kbiggs
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Re: Flat chin?

Post by Kbiggs »

Something I’ve been experimenting with is gently pointing my tongue to the area just above my top teeth during the inhale. It seems to help me pull my corners back to inhale. It also gets the tongue ready to articulate the note. I’m still working on it.
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imsevimse
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Re: Flat chin?

Post by imsevimse »

Savio wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:26 am Im little unsure what flat chin really means! Since I’m a teacher I should know :roll: is it to roll the under lip a little over the lower lip? I’m not exactly doing that, but I have nearly all muscles around the lips a bit engaged.

Leif
No I don't think that is a part of the"flat chin" concept. Think it is another thing that may need another thread. Flat chin has to do with activating muscles in the chin that acctually flattens the chin. Muscles/chin help pulling the lower lip dow
As Doug recommended I could try to push my jaw forward to make it happen instead of just trying to flatten the chin. I think that is what I'm doing too, but to me I have the feeling that my bottom lip then (when it works) protrudes a bit into the mouthpiece. My bottom lip do come out if I push the jaw so I think it is what I do and that it is the same thing.

I'm working on this in the middle and lower register. I'm not curling my lips. I guess to curl the bottom lip under the top lip could be a way to play in the high register, but that is not the technique I use when I play in the upper register.

When it comes to the chin I have been rather loose there. The "flat chin/pull down" gives me a better sound and better control, most notable in the middle and low register but sound is affected everywhere, and also intonation. Now I play with my tuningslide pushed in all the way and the "flat chin/pull down" both lowers pitch and darkens the sound.

Someone who has more experience about "flat chin" can perhaps explain this better, and also if they have experience that the overall tuning is effected (flattened pitch) when someone starts to play like this and has not done that before.

/Tom
Last edited by imsevimse on Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:27 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Doug Elliott
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Re: Flat chin?

Post by Doug Elliott »

You did a pretty good job of explaining it.
The flat chin and other things can definitely affect intonation (that may be a surprise to some).
Pushing the jaw out slightly helps to feel and activate the muscles that flatten the chin and create better control over range, sound and pitch - depending on embouchure type - that applies to most players but maybe not all.
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Savio
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Re: Flat chin?

Post by Savio »

imsevimse wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:16 pm
Savio wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:26 am Im little unsure what flat chin really means! Since I’m a teacher I should know :roll: is it to roll the under lip a little over the lower lip? I’m not exactly doing that, but I have nearly all muscles around the lips a bit engaged.

Leif
No I don't think that is a part of the"flat chin" concept. Think it is another thing that may need another thread. Flat chin has to do with activating muscles in the chin that acctually flattens the chin. Muscles/chin help pulling the lower lip dow
As Doug recommended I could try to push my jaw forward to make it happen instead of just trying to flatten the chin. I think that is what I'm doing too, but to me I have the feeling that my bottom lip then (when it works) protrudes a bit into the mouthpiece. My bottom lip do come out if I push the jaw so I think it is what I do and that it is the same thing.

I'm working on this in the middle and lower register. I'm not curling my lips. I guess to curl the bottom lip under the top lip could be a way to play in the high register, but that is not the technique I use what I play in the upper register.

When it comes to the chin I have been rather loose there. The "flat chin/pull down" gives me a better sound and better control, most notable in the middle and low register but sound is affected everywhere, and also intonation. Now I play with my tuningslide pushed in all the way and the "flat chin/pull down" both lowers pitch and darkens the sound.

Someone who has more experience about "flat chin" can perhaps explain this better, and also if they have experience that the overall tuning is effected like this when someone start to play like this that has not done that before.

/Tom
Thanks! Should it be completely flat? When I say to my small children, form a M to play it should help? Never thought about this subject before. But have seen this words been used before by many players. I think I understand now.

Leif
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Doug Elliott
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Re: Flat chin?

Post by Doug Elliott »

"M" can imply pinching the lips together, and maybe raising the chin. Both of those are bad.

Lately I have been using "F" where the top teeth are resting on the bottom lip, and you can blow air through it easily, and it creates approximately the right spacing between top and bottom teeth.
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Savio
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Re: Flat chin?

Post by Savio »

Doug Elliott wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 10:26 pm "M" can imply pinching the lips together, and maybe raising the chin. Both of those are bad.

Lately I have been using "F" where the top teeth are resting on the bottom lip, and you can blow air through it easily, and it creates approximately the right spacing between top and bottom teeth.
Thanks, I will try that. It's interesting all this.

Leif
imsevimse
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Re: Flat chin?

Post by imsevimse »

More about "flat chin/pull down".

I noticed it to be very important for me when descending in register to make sure to be loose on mouthpiece pressure when that jaw pushes forward to make that "flat chin/pull down". I also need the mouthpiece pressure to be loose to allow those anchored corners of the aperture to push forward.

To be easy on mouthpiece pressure made things much easier.

What do the experts say?

/Tom
Last edited by imsevimse on Tue Jan 18, 2022 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Burgerbob
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Re: Flat chin?

Post by Burgerbob »

imsevimse wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 1:42 pm More about "flat chin/pull down".

I noticed it to be very important for me when descending in register to make sure to be loose on mouthpiece pressure when that jaw pushes forward to make that "flat chin/pull down". I also need the mouthpiece pressure to be loose to allow those anchored corners of the aperture to push forward in combination to that. It made things much easier.

What do the experts say?

/Tom
Like I said above, I am in the same boat. If I start to use pressure everything falls apart.
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imsevimse
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Re: Flat chin?

Post by imsevimse »

Burgerbob wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 1:43 pm
imsevimse wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 1:42 pm More about "flat chin/pull down".

I noticed it to be very important for me when descending in register to make sure to be loose on mouthpiece pressure when that jaw pushes forward to make that "flat chin/pull down". I also need the mouthpiece pressure to be loose to allow those anchored corners of the aperture to push forward in combination to that. It made things much easier.

What do the experts say?

/Tom
Like I said above, I am in the same boat. If I start to use pressure everything falls apart.
Absolutely! :good:
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Doug Elliott
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Re: Flat chin?

Post by Doug Elliott »

It depends.
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Re: Flat chin?

Post by baileyman »

imsevimse wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:16 pm ... to me I have the feeling that my bottom lip then (when it works) protrudes a bit into the mouthpiece. My bottom lip do come out if I push the jaw so I think it is what I do and that it is the same thing.
...
/Tom
This sounds remarkably like my "Effing Set", imagining the feel of F above the staff and briefly playing to start a session. That note seems to be for me the lowest note that will prompt that feel, which then works over the entire horn. It is the physical memory of it that is so weirdly challenging.
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Re: Flat chin?

Post by Kbiggs »

baileyman wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:30 am
This sounds remarkably like my "Effing Set", imagining the feel of F above the staff and briefly playing to start a session. That note seems to be for me the lowest note that will prompt that feel, which then works over the entire horn. It is the physical memory of it that is so weirdly challenging.
Is this like people (eg, Bill Watrous) who say they deliberately practiced moving their starting and warm-up notes/routine higher and higher so they can start on a high F. I think someone here on TC Doug Elliott (?) may have mentioned something similar… somewhere… (My apologies if that’s not true, Doug.)
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Doug Elliott
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Re: Flat chin?

Post by Doug Elliott »

Yes exactly. I did mention it recently but I don't remember which thread.
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ithinknot
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Re: Flat chin?

Post by ithinknot »

Kbiggs wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:47 am
baileyman wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:30 am
This sounds remarkably like my "Effing Set", imagining the feel of F above the staff and briefly playing to start a session. That note seems to be for me the lowest note that will prompt that feel, which then works over the entire horn. It is the physical memory of it that is so weirdly challenging.
Is this like people (eg, Bill Watrous) who say they deliberately practiced moving their starting and warm-up notes/routine higher and higher so they can start on a high F. I think someone here on TC Doug Elliott (?) may have mentioned something similar… somewhere… (My apologies if that’s not true, Doug.)
Watrous used :trebleclef: :line2: as the reference - talks about it here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzTrAfjhg9c
Doug Elliott wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:58 am Yes exactly. I did mention it recently but I don't remember which thread.
https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php? ... 98#p166898
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Re: Flat chin?

Post by Kdanielsen »

I'm not much of a jazz player, but I also have tried moving my "home" note up over time. I gradually moved it up from 2nd partial to 4th partial (middle Bb), and lots of things have improved. I tried going up to 5th partial, but that was too high. My embouchure does "something" (not totally sure) around 3 partial, and getting home base up above that shift has really helped.

Toby Oft once mentioned in a lesson that he sets up to make high notes easy ("I'd rather have to practice low notes"), and Joe Alessi covered some similar topics at the Alessi Seminar. This also seems to be a common trope in trumpet pedagogy based around Boston, but I don't really know the details.

When I work with my beginner students, I put a lot of effort into getting their embouchure based around 3rd partial, and as soon as they can play middle Bb, I move them up to 4th partial. This involves starting lip slurs, long tones, and scales as close to 4th partial as possible. I've had pretty good success with this. They generally don't have problems with range. The kids who come to me for lessons after a year or two of band usually sound great on low Bb but can't play above the staff. That's a real frustration. Low Bb might be easy to fart out with a floppy embouchure, but it's basically useless as a starting point as far as I can tell.

Flat/long/tall/smooth chin is important. It's about the only thing I did right naturally.
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timothy42b
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Re: Flat chin?

Post by timothy42b »

After a solid week practicing hard on flat chin, I seem to have made progress in the staff. I even think I sound good.
Of course the range above middle C disappeared in the process.
Chin is flat though.
Rehearsal last night was painful.
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