TromboneChat

So I'm playing the bass part in an arrangement of American in Paris. The arranger for some reason thought it would be a good idea to have the bass play that quick sextuplet ornemantation that the picollo would otherwise play in the begining of the piece even though a trumpet or a horn would be able to do it much better. I honestly don't think it would be possible to play it cleanly at tempo and even if it is, then there is no way it would sound musical. I checked the score and I'm the only one playing this so I wouldn't be able to fake it. We won't have a lot of rehearsal so I need to get this figured out soon.
Thanks in advance

Play every other note and convert to a triplet?

JCBone wrote: ↑Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:11 pm So I'm playing the bass part in an arrangement of American in Paris. The arranger for some reason thought it would be a good idea to have the bass play that quick sextuplet ornemantation that the picollo would otherwise play in the begining of the piece even though a trumpet or a horn would be able to do it much better. I honestly don't think it would be possible to play it cleanly at tempo and even if it is, then there is no way it would sound musical. I checked the score and I'm the only one playing this so I wouldn't be able to fake it. We won't have a lot of rehearsal so I need to get this figured out soon.
Thanks in advance

Can you post a picture of the passage in question and the tempo? Hard to make a judgement without knowing what exactly you're talking about.

My teacher in High School used to hammer this home every time I got to something I couldn't play: SLOW DOWN!!!

run your metronome at a speed where you can hit all the notes. Even if it's ridiculously slow. Now play through at this tempo until you have mastered it.

Once you have mastered the passage at that slow tempo, bring it up A LITTLE. Play it now. Still too slow, but faster than before. Play until you can get it.

You get the idea?

The problem with working up from a slow tempo is that you are practicing something that is not the thing you need to play.

Can you play the first note in tempo?
Can you play the first two notes in tempo?

You need to get it done soon?

It may be time for ... fast practice:

I'm talking about the first few measures.

Listening to recordings, sounds like it's around 104 for the quarter note. Playable but uncharacteristic, and just bad arranging IMO.

What I would do:
1. Play it up an octave. I would be sure that's what was intended - no one in their right mind would intend it where it's written.
2. Play those triplets as a lipped turn (only tongue the first note of the triplet, and the next note), with very little concern for accuracy of the top note. Just create the effect.

The arranger didn't "think it would be a good idea," they just don't know what they're doing at all. Make it work.

It's not that unusual for stupid arrangers to write stuff that's unplayable on trombone. Or in the wrong octave. I think it would work on bassoon but it would still need to be 8va to sound decent.

That isn't unplayable, but it is bad arranging. It would probably sound amateurish even with an all star section.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:28 pm What I would do:
1. Play it up an octave. I would be sure that's what was intended - no one in their right mind would intend it where it's written.
2. Play those triplets as a lipped turn (only tongue the first note of the triplet, and the next note), with very little concern for accuracy of the top note. Just create the effect.

The arranger didn't "think it would be a good idea," they just don't know what they're doing at all. Make it work.

It's not that unusual for stupid arrangers to write stuff that's unplayable on trombone. Or in the wrong octave. I think it would work on bassoon but it would still need to be 8va to sound decent.

Makes sense
BTW: In all the other arrangements for brass ensemble, this would be played by trumpet or horn. I found one with trombone but it's on tenor in a higher octave like you suggested
Anyhow, thanks for the advice!

What level ensemble is playing this? It looks like a "generic low" part written for trombone, bassoon, baritone sax, and maybe baritone horn.

If some of the notes are outside your range, leave them out. If the BD complains, tell him that it's not written for your instrument. If you do have an F-attachment trombone, a lot of the "odd" licks can be simplified using some trigger notes like Bb in T3, Ab in T5.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:48 pm What level ensemble is playing this? It looks like a "generic low" part written for trombone, bassoon, baritone sax, and maybe baritone horn.

If some of the notes are outside your range, leave them out. If the BD complains, tell him that it's not written for your instrument. If you do have an F-attachment trombone, a lot of the "odd" licks can be simplified using some trigger notes like Bb in T3, Ab in T5.

It's for a high level youth octet. The problem isn't the notes. The problem is that ornemantation at the begining. As harisson reed mentioned, It probably wouldn't sound good even in a all star ensemble.

What I find funny about this is that the arranger is a high level bass trombinist who who all probably have heard of before. I can't help but wonder if maybe he knows sone secret trick. I just find it hard to imagine that soneone who really knows the ins and outs of the instrument would write such a thing.

The secret trick, unfathomable to most bass trombonists, is to play that c in 6th. The triple tonguing will work better if you aren’t changing partials/valves as much (or at all).

Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:55 am The secret trick, unfathomable to most bass trombonists, is to play that c in 6th. The triple tonguing will work better if you aren’t changing partials/valves as much (or at all).

I agree. Also play the F in 6th (closer to 4th than 1st). Make liberal use of the Bb in T3 if you have an F-attachment -- makes for a lot of neater patterns. You may even find some easier transitions if you have an independent double bass trombone and can play with the Gb side alone.

I'm still looking for the "sextuplet"

Here is a slight change from kdanielson's suggestion...
(I presume this is the intended passage)

I tried it on my horn. I'm "that close" to making it work. I'm confident it could be worked up like that.

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:04 am I'm still looking for the "sextuplet"

My thoughts exactly. The part is goofy only because of the tessitura. I take back what I said though -- I'm confident a professional bass trombonist could play that part relatively easily.

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:20 am Here is a slight change from kdanielson's suggestion...

AIP.jpg

(I presume this is the intended passage)

I tried it on my horn. I'm "that close" to making it work. I'm confident it could be worked up like that.

Im curious why you went to T1. I’d also play the F in the 2nd valve in flat 2.

I'm making the assumption based on the part, that it's a "Trombone" part and the OP is playing on a large bore tenor. If the image cropped "Bass" from the assignment, I'd agree with you; especially with an Indie bass.

Sure, there are ways to do it. But even if it were played perfectly I can't imagine in sounding good in context, in that octave.

It looks pretty easy on a G valve. I wonder if this well known trombonist uses that tuning, wrote it for themselves and then didn't closely examine it when publishing for age level. But yeah, not sure if it makes sense to have it doubled there one way or the other.

I don't get what the fuss is about. Stick to 6th for all the Cs. Triple tongue the triplet 16ths...job done.
Sorry Doug...no tenor trombonist can see the point of playing anything in a lower octave when a higher octave is available...part of tenor vision
Don't panic and don't try and play too loud.
Chris

We could bitch all day about how it's not proper trombone writing (and we will!) but the OP doesn't have that as an option.

He has to play it somehow.

He will look better to the ensemble leader for having put it together than to say he shouldn't have to.

I think with Sulliman's "fast practice" and a wise choice of positions it can be done. Work it up in bits at tempo or near tempo and then start putting the bits together.

I think the middle note of the triplet is always the hard one here. It's very easy to only huff out an indeterminate pitch than to land a real note. Play the triplet slowly occasionally to remind yourself what is supposed to be coming out. I had to.

Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:01 am
Im curious why you went to T1.

For me, it seemed a bit less frantic. It's not a big thing.

This is probably more intuitive...

blast wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:47 am I don't get what the fuss is about. Stick to 6th for all the Cs. Triple tongue the triplet [not sextuplet] 16ths...job done.

Don't panic and don't try and play too loud.
Chris

You’ve gotten many good suggestions here, nothing new I can add to that. However, as a composer/arranger I’ll reiterate the notion that this is really bad arranging. It was clearly done by someone with a terrible understanding of the trombone and orchestration in general. Yes, it can be done, but SHOULD it be done? Talk to the conductor and explain the problem. He/she should have a decent understanding of orchestration (hopefully) and will agree that it’s bad and should help to “re”arrange it!

blast wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:47 am I don't get what the fuss is about. Stick to 6th for all the Cs. Triple tongue the triplet 16ths...job done.
Sorry Doug...no tenor trombonist can see the point of playing anything in a lower octave when a higher octave is available...part of tenor vision
Don't panic and don't try and play too loud.
Chris

That's what I was thinking. This part doesn't look unreasonably difficult - awkward enough that a middling amateur like me would flub it during a sightread, but not insurmountable with a bit of deliberate practice.

Whether it's good or bad orchestration is above my pay grade. If the conductor likes it up an octave, that makes it a bit easier. If not, you gotta play the notes.

spencercarran wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:48 pm
Whether it's good or bad orchestration is above my pay grade. If the conductor likes it up an octave, that makes it a bit easier. If not, you gotta play the notes.

True dat! We’ve all had to play stupid things that someone else thought was ok. In my beginning days as a student of composition and orchestration I did some magnificently stupid things. I once wrote a clarinet part in a quartet that called for about 35 measures of moderately fast arpeggios. The guy who played it complained, but he was also able to do it. BUT, he said it was really taxing to play. So again, just because something can be done doesn’t mean it should be done.

Again, my suggestion is to talk to the conductor and see how he/she feels, if that fails just do your best and let the arrangement speak for itself. Most people won’t even know anything is wrong. Those who do will know enough to realize it’s not your fault.

JCBone wrote: ↑Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:10 pm I'm talking about the first few measures.

The other ridiculous thing I see is the low Ab from measure 36 to 51!! Whoever did this arrangement is a nitwit.

Being reasonably accurate on a lick that moves quickly through large slide distances like that - that's where having "good" slide technique can really help. And, a very well-maintained slide that moves like air.

It has no sense to play these triplets like are written, because it won't sound good even if you play it perfectly.
Talk to the conductor to play it up an octave an slurred (like the original version) it should be a lot of easier. Ornamentations should always sound easy and gentle think it like a flexibility exercise. Good luck!

this arranging is fine. another octave down and then we could talk. it'll be a challenge but that's good for all of us. i understand i'll probably get some push back for this, but i think it'll sound good if you work on it, and anyone who works professionally shouldn't think twice about it.

WilliamLang wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:08 pm ... i think it'll sound good if you work on it, and anyone who works professionally shouldn't think twice about it.

This piece was given to an advanced student brass ensemble. Probably high school kids doing it.

I once performed a piece by an American composer, Robert Parris, that had a bass trombone passage that hovered around low B natural and C#, was VERY difficult and had no reason to be written other than that no one else had ever written such a crazy passage. This was in the days when double trigger horns were not in general use. I thought I should alert the composer to the possibility that such outlandish, uninformed writing might impact the future performance of his compositions and mentioned how difficult it was. Instead of receiving a "Gosh ! I had NO idea !" response, I received a very defensive response when he said that if he didn't write challenging material then the technical development of the instrument would suffer ! I still don't know if his response was out of embarrassment of not knowing the possibilities for the instrument or if he was serious and since he is no longer with us that mystery will remain a mystery. I'm sure that the passage would be infinitely easier on a double trigger horn like the ones in common use today, but, as I predicted, the piece is no longer in circulation ---- so which one of us was right ?

2bobone wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:38 pm I once performed a piece by an American composer, Robert Parris, that had a bass trombone passage that hovered around low B natural and C#, was VERY difficult and had no reason to be written other than that no one else had ever written such a crazy passage. This was in the days when double trigger horns were not in general use. I thought I should alert the composer to the possibility that such outlandish, uninformed writing might impact the future performance of his compositions and mentioned how difficult it was. Instead of receiving a "Gosh ! I had NO idea !" response, I received a very defensive response when he said that if he didn't write challenging material then the technical development of the instrument would suffer ! I still don't know if his response was out of embarrassment of not knowing the possibilities for the instrument or if he was serious and since he is no longer with us that mystery will remain a mystery. I'm sure that the passage would be infinitely easier on a double trigger horn like the ones in common use today, but, as I predicted, the piece is no longer in circulation ---- so which one of us was right ?

It's an arrogant response and I'm sure he was embarrassed. Instead, he really should have thanked you and asked more about your instrument. That's what I do. Life is too short to not ask question and learn new things every day!

2bobone wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:38 pm Instead of receiving a "Gosh ! I had NO idea !" response, I received a very defensive response when he said that if he didn't write challenging material then the technical development of the instrument would suffer !

In other words...


Parris is yet another famous American composer I've never ever heard of before so i looked him up.

Wiki says, "Parris was notorious for pushing instruments to the limits of any player's abilities."

Some composers are notorious for having more requests for compositions than they can fulfill, but that seems not to have been his problem.

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:13 pm

2bobone wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:38 pm Instead of receiving a "Gosh ! I had NO idea !" response, I received a very defensive response when he said that if he didn't write challenging material then the technical development of the instrument would suffer !

In other words...


Parris is yet another famous American composer I've never ever heard of before so i looked him up.

Wiki says, "Parris was notorious for pushing instruments to the limits of any player's abilities."

Some composers are notorious for having more requests for compositions than they can fulfill, but that seems not to have been his problem.

- generally when a composer says he's "pushing the limits" it means he hasn't studied the instruments very well during orchestration classes. It's bullshit.

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:13 pm Wiki says, "Parris was notorious for pushing instruments to the limits of any player's abilities."

I prefer to listen to and perform compositions that sound like ... music ... rather than those that are written to only demonstrate the limits of the instrument - or even the performer's technical prowess.

I know professional bass trombonists who can play this with no problem. I think I as a doubler on bass can play that triplet in question too. A trouble for me, I guess, could be the fast jump to that low d further down the page after the triplet d-f-d. I guess I would have some trouble to nail that bottom note clean each time. That is a personal problem. I know both professional tenor- and bass trombone players who can do that jump clean in an instant. When the sixteenth-notes land on the c I would play the c on 6:th position each time. No need of a trigger there.

To me: I would isolate the octave-jump. That is what I need to practice to make it clean each time.

So the problem is in our skills not that this is an unplayable part in tempo 104. I can understand Chris has no problem to play this part!

What to do if something is too difficult?
Rewrite or skip entirely.

What to do if it still has to be played because it is essential to the music? (could be a well known melody or an essential part that can not be skipped)

I think my advice is to do a rearrangement and let someone else play that. Speak to the leader and ask him/her to solve the problem with a pen and arranging skills. Maybe a trumpet-player could take care of those sixteenth-notes.

Now, challenge is what makes us better. When we see things that is too difficult for us we know we have to practice to reach next level. Advice is: practice and you will eventually be able to do that phrase.

/Tom

I think I recall a story that Ellington would ask his players about a new chart, "Did you like your part?"

baileyman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:18 am I think I recall a story that Ellington would ask his players about a new chart, "Did you like your part?"

I hope that’s true! It’s a nice thing to ask. I love it when people thank me for writing them a part they like. Not only do I not want to push players to extremes, but I generally hate music that conspicuously does that. Exploring extended techniques for instruments is fine, like the Berio Sequenzas for example. But, most pieces that consciously push to limits turn me off.

baileyman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:18 am I think I recall a story that Ellington would ask his players about a new chart, "Did you like your part?"

When I was in a lab band at UNT, after we read a new piece, the lead hipster would usually say something like, "you cats cool to this chart?"

Yeah, I think part of what was going on with Ellington here is that he wanted each part to make sense to the player as a line of music. That seems unusual for a piano player, who otherwise might simply assign 4th bone to fourth finger left hand, whatever it was playing. I remember some old Johnny Williams or Previn charts where the lines seemed weird, AND in places it was hard to breathe. Parenthetically, the making sense thing applies to background comping, too. Sometimes in a band it's worthwhile to have the melody or solo lay out so the background compers can hear the sense of a good rhythmic comping section. Some of them are very musical, dynamic and driving. It's too easy for players to try to hide their comping so as not to "get in the way" the melody line, but that's completely backwards. So anyway, the idea of making inside parts make sense seems like it should be a big help to a successful performance.

blast wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:47 am I don't get what the fuss is about. Stick to 6th for all the Cs. Triple tongue the triplet 16ths...job done.
Sorry Doug...no tenor trombonist can see the point of playing anything in a lower octave when a higher octave is available...part of tenor vision
Don't panic and don't try and play too loud.
Chris

good:

Sometimes it's wise to listen the experienced people like Chris and Basbasun.

Leif

Savio wrote: ↑Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:46 pm

blast wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:47 am I don't get what the fuss is about. Stick to 6th for all the Cs. Triple tongue the triplet 16ths...job done.
Sorry Doug...no tenor trombonist can see the point of playing anything in a lower octave when a higher octave is available...part of tenor vision
Don't panic and don't try and play too loud.
Chris

good:

Sometimes it's wise to listen the experienced people like Chris and Basbasun.

Leif

Didn't we go through this same situation this last Christmas for the TC site? Someone arranged something that worked well on a computer, but on a real horn playing alone into a mic was monstrously difficult. A few people actually recorded it correctly, but I think even some pros had to do it in multiple takes and splice. The end compilation was a little iffy.

Too often arrangers are trying to be heroes rather than just making good music. There's a time to take a risk and extend your boundaries, and a time to just enjoy it all. Sometimes that line is hard to distinguish.

Bad writing can make a great player sound amateurish no matter how well they play the written part.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:31 pm Bad writing can make a great player sound amateurish no matter how well they play the written part.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:31 pm Bad writing can make a great player sound amateurish no matter how well they play the written part.

Absolutely! I screen some submissions for the American Composers Forum and some things I see defy description!

Regarding whether or not that is "bad arranging" I would have to see/hear what else is going on in the arrangement at that time before commenting. Is it doubled in another part? Is there a lot of other stuff on top of it so that it needs to be played loudly?

It is a challenging line to play. I just tried playing through it. I have more trouble with the jump from D in the staff to the D below the staff than with the triplets, personally. I felt that playing the Cs in 6th position worked best.

I might be playing it too slowly (I used quarter note = 104), but I think I would be able to blow through it without embarrassing myself too badly (except for the trigger D jump) in a pinch.

JCBone wrote: ↑Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:11 pm I honestly don't think it would be possible to play it cleanly at tempo and even if it is, then there is no way it would sound musical.

I understand that you're under time constraints to rehearse and perform this, but for down the road what specifically are you having trouble with? Is it getting the slide to the right positions in the triplets? Is it the triple tonguing? Isolate what's difficult for you and in your practice moving forward spend some time working on that technique to improve your abilities the next time you get something similar.

Speaking of which, I need to go practice my trigger range.