Where do you play B natural?

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Bach5G
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Where do you play B natural?

Post by Bach5G » Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:28 pm

This one: :bassclef: :line2:

On the F trigger, flat 2nd. But, how flat? Same position as trigger E natural at flat 2nd a fourth lower?
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spencercarran
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Re: Where do you play B natural?

Post by spencercarran » Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:43 pm

No, it's definitely further out than the trigger E. Noticeably so.
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harrisonreed
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Re: Where do you play B natural?

Post by harrisonreed » Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:04 pm

There are no exact positions for any given note. It depends on the context that you are playing that B natural in. There are cases where it will be in exactly the same place as the E below it.
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Burgerbob
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Re: Where do you play B natural?

Post by Burgerbob » Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:10 pm

Where it's in tune. Farther out than E on average, less so if it's the 5th of an E chord.
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robcat2075
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Re: Where do you play B natural?

Post by robcat2075 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:14 pm

An easy exercise to do would be to set up a long drone tone from either a tuning app that plays tones or score app like Musescore that lets you plunk any note down and repeat it

First do a B drone and practice a unison. That will tell you where the equal tempered B is.

Then make an E drone and practice playing B in tune against it

Then make a G drone and practice playing B in tune against that.
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Doug Elliott
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Re: Where do you play B natural?

Post by Doug Elliott » Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:40 pm

I have always tuned B exactly above the open A. That makes C in a little from Bb, but it gives you a little more of the slide for low C.
Bach5G
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Re: Where do you play B natural?

Post by Bach5G » Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:34 pm

robcat2075 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:14 pm
An easy exercise to do would be to set up a long drone tone from either a tuning app that plays tones or score app like Musescore that lets you plunk any note down and repeat it

First do a B drone and practice a unison. That will tell you where the equal tempered B is.

Then make an E drone and practice playing B in tune against it

Then make a G drone and practice playing B in tune against that.
This is a good idea. I can pair my phone with my Alexa and have it play the drones from my TE Tuner app.
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Re: Where do you play B natural?

Post by sf105 » Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:42 am

robcat2075 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:14 pm
An easy exercise to do would be to set up a long drone tone from either a tuning app that plays tones or score app like Musescore that lets you plunk any note down and repeat it

First do a B drone and practice a unison. That will tell you where the equal tempered B is.

Then make an E drone and practice playing B in tune against it

Then make a G drone and practice playing B in tune against that.
I haven't done scales against a drone in ages. This is a good reminder.
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Re: Where do you play B natural?

Post by timothy42b » Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:21 am

robcat2075 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:14 pm
An easy exercise to do would be to set up a long drone tone from either a tuning app that plays tones or score app like Musescore that lets you plunk any note down and repeat it

First do a B drone and practice a unison. That will tell you where the equal tempered B is.

Then make an E drone and practice playing B in tune against it

Then make a G drone and practice playing B in tune against that.
For extra credit, have a tuner on your stand, and your drone playing on speakers behind you.

Tune by ear to the drone, then by eye to the tuner. You should know how to do both. On a unison of course they'll be the same. But intervals should not be.
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Re: Where do you play B natural?

Post by robcat2075 » Sat Jan 23, 2021 9:32 am

It wasn't until I started trying to play cello that it sunk in that there is a solid "in tune" for every interval, even half steps and tritones.

Damn! Hitting the unisons was hard enough, now there's twelve intervals I have to get right?
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Re: Where do you play B natural?

Post by stewbones43 » Sat Jan 23, 2021 2:32 pm

The question is "Where do you play B natural?"

Only ever at home when no-one is listening.

If I am out at a gig or a rehearsal and a B natural appears in the music, I always let someone else play it, if necessary, I make the excuse that my trombone doesn't work on that note.

Seriously, as Burgerbob said, "Where it is in tune" and that can vary according to which trombone I am playing.

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Doug Elliott
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Re: Where do you play B natural?

Post by Doug Elliott » Sat Jan 23, 2021 2:35 pm

It's in 5th on my alto.
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Re: Where do you play B natural?

Post by jthomas105 » Sat Jan 23, 2021 4:10 pm

When a B natural shows up I see flat.
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imsevimse
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Re: Where do you play B natural?

Post by imsevimse » Sat Jan 23, 2021 4:27 pm

My slide is often not long enough for that B and that's because I do not tune at the bumper. The E is okay but the B is at the tip just where the slide falls off. I can usually lip that note down a bit so noone knows.

/Tom
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Re: Where do you play B natural?

Post by Posaunus » Sat Jan 23, 2021 5:25 pm

Bach5G wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:28 pm
This one: :bassclef: :line2:
On the F trigger, flat 2nd. But, how flat? Same position as trigger E natural at flat 2nd a fourth lower?
Just a reminder, folks - Bach5G was asking about the trigger B in the bass clef staff, (second line, just above your 1st position low B flat). :bassclef: :line2:

I typically tune my F-attachment so that my valved 1st position C is in tune with my main tuning slide. (I often play C in V1.) His question is whether the 2nd position B (a half step lower) is in the same place as the valved 2nd position E below it. I find it's a little different depending on which F-attachment trombone I'm playing. That's why I always have to listen and adjust! :shock:
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imsevimse
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Re: Where do you play B natural?

Post by imsevimse » Sat Jan 23, 2021 5:48 pm

Posaunus wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 5:25 pm
Bach5G wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:28 pm
This one: :bassclef: :line2:
On the F trigger, flat 2nd. But, how flat? Same position as trigger E natural at flat 2nd a fourth lower?
Just a reminder, folks - Bach5G was asking about the trigger B in the bass clef staff, (second line, just above your 1st position low B flat). :bassclef: :line2:

I typically tune my F-attachment so that my valved 1st position C is in tune with my main tuning slide. (I often play C in V1.) His question is whether the 2nd position B (a half step lower) is in the same place as the valved 2nd position E below it. I find it's a little different depending on which F-attachment trombone I'm playing. That's why I always have to listen and adjust! :shock:
Okey, I missed that. Okey the trigger B is defenately further out on the slide compared to the E on the trigger. Exactly where it is depends on how you tune your trigger. I tune the trigger F at the bumper. It's the only note I play at the bumper and then the E is just past open A on second and the B is further out from there. Where you play open A has to do also where you tune the Bb. I have come to conclusion the F on the trigger needs to be at the bumper and the Bb needs to be out, or else the F will sound flat. I had that problem in my younger days. The problem was I tuned the Bb at the bumper too. The horn was then not intune with itself.

/Tom
Last edited by imsevimse on Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Bach5G
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Re: Where do you play B natural?

Post by Bach5G » Sat Jan 23, 2021 5:54 pm

There’s the rub: “and the B is further out from there”.

And the Bb in flat 3/sharp 4 will not line up with the Eb a 4th lower? Etc.
Last edited by Bach5G on Sat Jan 23, 2021 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where do you play B natural?

Post by Burgerbob » Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:08 pm

Bach5G wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 5:54 pm
There’s the rub: “and the B is further out from there”.

And the Bb in flat 3/sharp 4 will not line up with the Eb a 4th lower? Etc.
Just like F :line4: in first and Bb :line2: in first don't line up. Same partial, same tendencies.
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Re: Where do you play B natural?

Post by Bach5G » Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:28 pm

:shock: They don’t????
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Re: Where do you play B natural?

Post by Burgerbob » Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:36 pm

Bach5G wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:28 pm
:shock: They don’t????
Not on the vast majority of trombones, no. F will be out a bit farther as the 3rd partial is a little high in comparison to 2nd partial. The adjustment is larger with the F attachment (for C and F, B and E, Bb and Eb) because the positions themselves are larger.
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Re: Where do you play B natural?

Post by harrisonreed » Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:38 pm

Bach5G wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:28 pm
:shock: They don’t????
:shock:

It's not just what Aiden is saying. How to get them to play in tune will vary from trombone to trombone, yes, but even on a trombone that somehow breaks physics and has every note in a harmonic series (position) perfectly line up with all the others in 12TET, you STILL wouldn't play the F and Bb in the same place -- it would change depending on the key, the people you're playing with, etc
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Re: Where do you play B natural?

Post by BGuttman » Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:12 pm

Bach5G wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:28 pm
:shock: They don’t????
And this is why I get frustrated with the current fad among School Band Directors to tune to F rather than Bb. F in the bass staff (and G for trumpets) is in a partial that is not in line with the rest of the instrument. I know kids often have a problem playing Bb on top of the staff (C in the treble clef for trumpets) and that Bb on the 2nd line is often an odd note but using the 3rd partial to tune brass is very problematic.
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Re: Where do you play B natural?

Post by hyperbolica » Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:19 pm

On my horns, especially on my Kanstul bass where I pay more attention to lower notes, i tune low F under the staff to straight up 1st position. That puts C on the staff out about 1.5", and that puts B a long position out from there, and that makes B further out than E. If you tune C to be in 1st position, F is unplayably flat. I define "1st position" to be the closest I'm willing to play to the bumpers. That's usually 1/4 - 1/2".

The difference between C and F is less pronounced on my other horns, but because on bass, you're really focusing on that area of the staff, I tend to pay more attention to it there.
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Re: Where do you play B natural?

Post by Bach5G » Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:27 pm

I can see the drones/tuner business coming in handy here.
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Re: Where do you play B natural?

Post by harrisonreed » Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:02 pm

I never understood why someone would tune the "F" attachment to "C"
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Re: Where do you play B natural?

Post by BGuttman » Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:15 pm

harrisonreed wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:02 pm
I never understood why someone would tune the "F" attachment to "C"
If you rarely need to us low F in T1, tuning so C in T1 is in tune makes sense. Also works if you have Conn style slide springs.

Bass trombone players who often need low F in T1 tune so it can be used and pull out just a bit to play C in T1.

Btw, I play B natural in 4th (on my G bass trombone).
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Bach5G
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Re: Where do you play B natural?

Post by Bach5G » Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:30 pm

This is trickier than I expected.
ithinknot
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Re: Where do you play B natural?

Post by ithinknot » Sun Jan 24, 2021 1:05 am

I generally do what Tom and others have mentioned - play off the bumpers generally, low F up against the bumpers, so the trigger 3rd partial is further out.

I like Doug's suggestion a lot:
Doug Elliott wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:40 pm
I have always tuned B exactly above the open A. That makes C in a little from Bb, but it gives you a little more of the slide for low C.
...I can see how this would make life easier, both within the staff and for maximising low C extension, though at the cost of no usable low F even in hard 1st (at least on any horn I've ever had; yours may vary...)
Bach5G wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:30 pm
This is trickier than I expected.
:good: Note that all of the above presuppose that your default 1st position is away from the bumpers to some degree. I think how much is a legitimate matter of taste. If you're a purely classical player,then 1/2" is going to be enough to allow useful adjustments; if you want serious vib room, then as far as you want without abandoning 7th (which comes down to slide length, or maybe ergonomics before that if you have short arms). But playing up against the bumpers limits fluency and is expecting way too much of your instrument specifically, and physics in general.
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Re: Where do you play B natural?

Post by AndrewMeronek » Sun Jan 24, 2021 4:57 am

Also related is "where do you play a B flat?" Playing it in trigger-extended 3rd position can be handy in certain situations, like a G-flat major arpeggio. It's in an odd-feeling place if you're not used to it: in a nebulous zone between 3rd and 4th position, and of course will be affected by your F-trigger setup as people have discussed here. But if you get used to slotting it in with the slide, it can be nice.
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Re: Where do you play B natural?

Post by robcat2075 » Sun Jan 31, 2021 10:52 am

AndrewMeronek wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 4:57 am
Also related is "where do you play a B flat?" Playing it in trigger-extended 3rd position can be handy in certain situations,
That trigger B-flat has always felt better to me than than the normal 1st position version.
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Re: Where do you play B natural?

Post by Doug Elliott » Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:52 am

On the 42B I used to have, I always considered low F in 1st to be completely unplayable, so it didn't figure into any tuning choices.
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Re: Where do you play B natural?

Post by imsevimse » Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:36 pm

Doug Elliott wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:52 am
On the 42B I used to have, I always considered low F in 1st to be completely unplayable, so it didn't figure into any tuning choices.
Is that even with the shortest possible F-tuningslide, when pushed all the way?

/Tom
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Re: Where do you play B natural?

Post by Doug Elliott » Sun Jan 31, 2021 1:03 pm

I was already pushed in all the way. I play all of my horns that way.
It wasn't really just about the pitch. Low F just felt horrible with the valve. I'd rather play it in 6th.
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Re: Where do you play B natural?

Post by Trombone » Sun Jan 31, 2021 1:41 pm

I play and teach the trombone, as well as other novelties.
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