Embochure fatigue

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Crazytrombonist505
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Embochure fatigue

Post by Crazytrombonist505 » Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:58 pm

Hey fellow chatters! So for the past week and a half or so my embochure has been feeling more fatigued than normal very early on while practicing. My playing in general hasn't been as good either because of it and it's starting to become very frustrating. I contacted my professor about it and explained the situation to him, and he suggested being careful and doing a few 20 min sessions with large breaks in between and breaks within the 20 mins. I've also tried using an ice pack periodically on my lips (for short periods of time obviously) and putting a muscle reliever cream on the muscles around my lips. I've been doing this for the last day or two and haven't noticed any major changes for better or worse.

I plan on trying to keep practicing to a minimum for now and see if anything improves, but my question is has anyone else experienced this issue at some point? Are there any other things I should be doing or doing differently? I've heard of the embochure overdose syndrome, but what I'm experiencing doesn't seem as bad as the symptoms of that. Any insight would be most welcome!
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LeTromboniste
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Re: Embochure fatigue

Post by LeTromboniste » Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:15 pm

What is your usual practice regimen like?
Did you play more than usual on one or several days recently, and how much more?
Did you play less over the holidays than usual?
Maximilien Brisson
Crazytrombonist505
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Re: Embochure fatigue

Post by Crazytrombonist505 » Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:51 pm

LeTromboniste wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:15 pm
What is your usual practice regimen like?
Did you play more than usual on one or several days recently, and how much more?
Did you play less over the holidays than usual?
This past semester I was playing anywhere from an hour and a half to two and a half hours every day except sundays. That inculdes group playing and individual practice. I don't think I played that much more than normal. In fact, I remember taking several days off over the past few weeks. So yes, this year I played much less over the holidays than I had been doing for several months.
Doug Elliott
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Re: Embochure fatigue

Post by Doug Elliott » Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:11 pm

The one most likely cause is your mouth is too open. Sometimes that happens if you're doing a different kind of playing, or in a different room, or on different equipment, or if you are trying to open up your sound and that's the wrong way to do it.

But it could be other things too.

I do Skype lessons if you're interested
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harrisonreed
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Re: Embochure fatigue

Post by harrisonreed » Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:54 pm

Doug Elliott wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:11 pm
The one most likely cause is your mouth is too open. Sometimes that happens if you're doing a different kind of playing, or in a different room, or on different equipment, or if you are trying to open up your sound and that's the wrong way to do it.

But it could be other things too.

I do Skype lessons if you're interested
I have heard for decades that having your teeth too close together is a bad thing. I am tied of hearing teachers say this. Doug is 100% correct.

When I moved to a larger mouthpiece diameter, this counterintuitively allowed me to play with my jaw higher and teeth slightly more together. So much more relaxed.
Basbasun
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Re: Embochure fatigue

Post by Basbasun » Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:13 am

How open is to much? How close is to little? I have hade many students with both to close and to open mouth. I have meet and played with fantastic players with very close mouth, other with very open mouth, sometimes more open than I thought was possible, And, playing very good! When teachers say it is a bad thing to have your teeth to close, what do they mean by that? To much space between the teeth? Or between the lips? Who is saying that? I have not heard that very much.

I have a frieand who do exercises called "whisper tones", playing with the teeth completely closed. I tried that, I found that I can play three octaves that way, but that sound would not be much payed for though. I heard some stories about some teacher asking the student to play with a space of 2 cm between the teeth, that maybe a rumor that I can not count for, I tried that (the corona make me try lots of stupid things) tha is absolutely imposible for me. But I have meet a trombone player who could do that beautifully.

I think the face muscles, lip size, teeth size and the space i n the mouth make very big differences.

To practise 20 minute sets is a very good idea I think, and rest as much as you practise is also a good idea.

If you have a cold or other bad health it will absolutely give you an embouchure faique. How do you sleep?
slideman
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Re: Embochure fatigue

Post by slideman » Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:20 am

harrisonreed wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:54 pm

When I moved to a larger mouthpiece diameter, this counterintuitively allowed me to play with my jaw higher and teeth slightly more together. So much more relaxed.
To get my desired sound from a small mouthpiece requires my teeth to be relatively far apart. A smaller mouthpiece makes articulation easier for me.
baileyman
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Re: Embochure fatigue

Post by baileyman » Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:53 am

Wonderful thread illustrating how what works for on may not work for another.
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BGuttman
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Re: Embochure fatigue

Post by BGuttman » Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:35 am

baileyman wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:53 am
Wonderful thread illustrating how what works for on may not work for another.
To quote Sam Burtis (Sabutin): Try everything. Use what works -- for you.
Bruce Guttman
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Kbiggs
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Re: Embochure fatigue

Post by Kbiggs » Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:19 am

Progress in any endeavour—art, athletics, mental health, economic, matters of faith, etc.—is never linear. Expect setbacks as you develop, and expect periods of development following each setback.
I have known a great many troubles, but most of them have never happened.
—Mark Twain (attributed)
Posaunus
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Re: Embochure fatigue

Post by Posaunus » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:25 pm

BGuttman wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:35 am
To quote Sam Burtis (Sabutin): Try everything. Use what works -- for you.
Anyone else miss Sam's commentaries?
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ArbanRubank
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Re: Embochure fatigue

Post by ArbanRubank » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:38 pm

Sam has a unique way of expressing himself and is living proof that there is more than one effective approach to playing.
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harrisonreed
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Re: Embochure fatigue

Post by harrisonreed » Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:06 pm

Posaunus wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:25 pm
BGuttman wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:35 am
To quote Sam Burtis (Sabutin): Try everything. Use what works -- for you.
Anyone else miss Sam's commentaries?
Yeah. Miss the guy
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Burgerbob
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Re: Embochure fatigue

Post by Burgerbob » Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:09 pm

If you miss Sam's monologues, he's still on facebook.
Crazytrombonist505
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Re: Embochure fatigue

Post by Crazytrombonist505 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:15 pm

Would perhaps having a wider rim than what I'm used to on a certain mouthpiece possibly cause issues? I ask because I recently started experiementing with a different bass mouthpiece with a wider rim and different shape than what I normally play with. My other bass mouthpieces have always had similar rims to my tenor pieces even though they are a tad wider.
Doug Elliott
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Re: Embochure fatigue

Post by Doug Elliott » Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:16 pm

Yes. Refer to my previous post.
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SwissTbone
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Re: Embochure fatigue

Post by SwissTbone » Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:45 am

Burgerbob wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:09 pm
If you miss Sam's monologues, he's still on facebook.
Sorry. I will get off topic here.

I think this post is not really respectful. I always really appreciated Sam's posts. He was one of the most thought provoking contributors on TTF and had valuable input to a lot of subjects.

I really preferred his well written and thought out posts to most short - and often consciously provocative - posts I read here by some contributors who could give some more wisdom given their experience. Sam gave a lot of his time for free. His opinions were sometimes off the beaten path and that's not always what people wanted to read. But his posts had always something to them.

Yes, I miss him on here. I even invited him to join TC when it went online. But he didn't want to. Probably because people are lacking respect.
ƒƒ---------------------------------------------------ƒƒ
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baileyman
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Re: Embochure fatigue

Post by baileyman » Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:28 am

SwissTbone wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:45 am
Burgerbob wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:09 pm
If you miss Sam's monologues, he's still on facebook.
... I even invited him to join TC when it went online. But he didn't want to. Probably because people are lacking respect.
Did the same. He told me people seemed more interested in learning and exploration on FB. Perhaps he tried everything, and that's what worked.
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Wilktone
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Re: Embochure fatigue

Post by Wilktone » Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:07 am

BGuttman wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:35 am
Try everything. Use what works -- for you.
I'm really not a fan of this quip. I don't need to rub bird poop on my head to know it won't help me grow hair, so I'm not going to try it.

Likewise, there are plenty of ways that brass players go about playing that seem like they are working at first, but ultimately end up making it harder to play in the long term. For example, you want a open and dark sound, open your jaw a little while you play. As Doug points out, however, this can lead to tiring out faster.

What we want to do if try those things that experienced players and teachers find works better in the long term and try that first. Practice time is hard enough to come by that we don't need to be spending our time on things that may not help.
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Re: Embochure fatigue

Post by timothy42b » Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:28 am

baileyman wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:28 am
SwissTbone wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:45 am


... I even invited him to join TC when it went online. But he didn't want to. Probably because people are lacking respect.
Did the same. He told me people seemed more interested in learning and exploration on FB. Perhaps he tried everything, and that's what worked.
There were some very accomplished and thoughtful people on that FB trombone page. i was there for a while, got attacked one too many times mostly by younger members and decided i didn't need the aggravation. I think Sam is still there.
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harrisonreed
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Re: Embochure fatigue

Post by harrisonreed » Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:21 am

Facebook is gross
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Wilktone
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Re: Embochure fatigue

Post by Wilktone » Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:29 am

I left the FB group too, but because an accomplished pro attacked me, so it's not just young people who cause those problems. I deleted my account on another forum a while back because a (different) accomplished pro was attacking me too much and also taking my posts from there and creating arguments on two different fora around them. Careful what you wish for.

Part of the problem with FB is that the way posts are displayed make it difficult for participants to see all the threads in context. For an active group this can make it challenging for an administrator to moderate posts and avoid those issues. This is the main reason why I prefer a more traditional bulletin board style forum, like this one.

But that's off topic.
Basbasun wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:13 am
How open is to much? How close is to little?
There are two sort of extreme ways teachers can approach communicating this. One is to recommend you keep your teeth as far apart as you can while still sounding good. The other is to suggest you keep your teeth as close as possible while still sounding good. Neither is inherently better or worse than the other, but it really depends on what the student is already doing and where she/he needs to go.

Dave
David Wilken
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Burgerbob
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Re: Embochure fatigue

Post by Burgerbob » Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:13 pm

SwissTbone wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:45 am
Burgerbob wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:09 pm
If you miss Sam's monologues, he's still on facebook.
Sorry. I will get off topic here.

I think this post is not really respectful. I always really appreciated Sam's posts. He was one of the most thought provoking contributors on TTF and had valuable input to a lot of subjects.

I mean no disrespect. But it would be hard to call his long posts anything else!
harrisonreed wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:21 am
Facebook is gross
Much could be said the same about this forum at times. Both can be great havens of information.
Posaunus
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Re: Embochure fatigue

Post by Posaunus » Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:40 pm

Burgerbob wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:13 pm

I mean no disrespect. But it would be hard to call [Sam's] long posts anything else [but monologues]!

Much could be said the same about this forum at times. Both can be great havens of information.
So are we more likely to get more / better information from a well-composed, factually-supported essay ("monologue") or from a casually tossed-off quip?

Actually, either can be valuable!
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Burgerbob
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Re: Embochure fatigue

Post by Burgerbob » Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:51 pm

Posaunus wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:40 pm
Burgerbob wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:13 pm

I mean no disrespect. But it would be hard to call [Sam's] long posts anything else [but monologues]!

Much could be said the same about this forum at times. Both can be great havens of information.
So are we more likely to get more / better information from a well-composed, factually-supported essay ("monologue") or from a casually tossed-off quip?

Actually, either can be valuable!
Por que no los dos? Exactly.

Again... nothing wrong with monologues, just calling it as I see it.
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harrisonreed
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Re: Embochure fatigue

Post by harrisonreed » Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:02 pm

I calls it as I sees it. Sam said that often
Posaunus
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Re: Embochure fatigue

Post by Posaunus » Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:35 pm

harrisonreed wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:02 pm
I calls it as I sees it. Sam said that often
Bet on it!
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Re: Embochure fatigue

Post by afugate » Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:19 am

Wilktone wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:29 am
Part of the problem with FB is that the way posts are displayed make it difficult for participants to see all the threads in context. For an active group this can make it challenging for an administrator to moderate posts and avoid those issues. This is the main reason why I prefer a more traditional bulletin board style forum, like this one.
As someone whose day job often involves FB moderation and responding to comments, I agree 100%! FB tools are not conducive to meaningful discourse. They're intended to draw eyeballs.

Back on topic...
My endurance (and playing) improved significantly after Doug helped me change some things in my embouchure.

--Andy in OKC
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