Another buzzing question

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Bach5G
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Another buzzing question

Post by Bach5G » Wed May 13, 2020 10:56 am

My uni teacher -a Chicago guy - was a buzzer. Ian B came to town in the 90s to promote his 682B and he, too, was a buzzer.

So, I’m a buzzer too, free, mpc, and using a FART.

I recently noticed Mr T Oft was promoting buzzing using only a rim. I tried this on a DE rim and found it more difficult than expected.

Why would that be? What advantages are ther to buzzing on the rim alone?
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Re: Another buzzing question

Post by cigmar » Wed May 13, 2020 12:37 pm

I'm not an expert on this, but my first and obvious guess would be that the DE rim is a different size and/or contour than your mouthpiece. If that's the case I would refrain from using that particular rim. (no slam on Doug's pieces)
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Re: Another buzzing question

Post by Burgerbob » Wed May 13, 2020 12:54 pm

Freebuzzing is harder than rim buzzing is harder than mouthpiece buzzing.
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Re: Another buzzing question

Post by norbie2018 » Wed May 13, 2020 12:55 pm

No resistance from the cup and shank.
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Re: Another buzzing question

Post by baileyman » Wed May 13, 2020 9:16 pm

My warmup has evolved. It's all freebuzzing.

I start in the middle at some unknown pitch, then buzz down an octave and back. Then down a half step and repeat. Until the low note cannot speak. (Ab double pedal this morning.)

Then turn around and go back up by half steps until, well, it's high enough. (12th partial this morning.)

I love this warmup since after this the chops are just plain ready to go.

But until recently it would have been impossible. The impossibility was the effort involved in glissing the low note back to the octave above. Just thinking about maneuvering the chops through those pitches was too painful to contemplate. But it's nothing really.

Set the resonance of the setup for the high note, then use the tongue in ee-ah fashion to get to the lower, then ah-ee fashion to get back. There is no discernible change in chops over the gliss. They feel static. But the tuning by tongue drives the pitch.

So, basically, I can't think of the various buzzes as having any different difficulty any more. They all provide some information and experience that may be useful. I prefer the piece, but now they all work almost interchangeably.
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Re: Another buzzing question

Post by Doug Elliott » Thu May 14, 2020 12:17 am

To my way of looking at it, if you understand correct freebuzzing and correct playing mechanics (for YOUR face), and know how to connect them, the intermediate steps of rim and mouthpiece buzzing only confuse the issue and are completely unnecessary.
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Re: Another buzzing question

Post by Basbasun » Thu May 14, 2020 10:30 am

Burgerbob wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 12:54 pm
Freebuzzing is harder than rim buzzing is harder than mouthpiece buzzing.
And mpc buzzing is harder than trombone playing. And all ways of buzzing is different from each other, and different from trombone playing.
I have listened to arguments on different ways of buzzing for 65 years, I cant say what is right for you.
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Re: Another buzzing question

Post by Wilktone » Thu May 14, 2020 2:45 pm

Burgerbob wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 12:54 pm
Freebuzzing is harder than rim buzzing is harder than mouthpiece buzzing.
I dunno if that's necessarily the case. I just tried out all three and felt rim buzzing to be the most challenging of the three. For what it's worth, my embouchure is upstream for the rim buzzing and mouthpiece buzzing, but when free buzzing I do it downstream. It works the muscles that I want to work much better than trying to get my lips to go into the position they go with the mouthpiece rim contact.

I also don't really feel that the rim buzzing is useful for me. In order to focus the buzz with just the rim I have to make adjustments that don't work right for playing the instrument and it doesn't work the correct muscles I target with free buzzing.

I wouldn't generally recommend a player incorporate rim buzzing regularly into their practice, but there may some value to it. A while back I was helping a trombonist whose embouchure is the Very High Placement/Reinhardt Type IIIA. He was really struggling with his chin bunching up while playing, particularly in his upper register. I had gotten his embouchure form looking pretty good with free buzzing but he couldn't maintain the flat chin when playing, even while buzzing into the instrument. I have a cut-a-way mouthpiece that we put in his trombone and had him try buzzing into the cut-a-way and he was able to maintain a flat chin with that. We used it as an intermediary step to getting him to buzzing into the instrument and maintain the flat chin.

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Re: Another buzzing question

Post by Burgerbob » Thu May 14, 2020 3:00 pm

I should have said that was the case for me... not necessarily a truth. Freebuzzing is by far the most useful for me after learning how to do it at all.
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Re: Another buzzing question

Post by Basbasun » Fri May 15, 2020 2:07 am

Hm. I put it this way. Buzzing can be done in many dufferent ways.
There is differencies between free buzzing, rim buzzings, mpc buzzing and trombone "buzzing".
Free buzzing is not like rim buzzing, you can make free buzzing more easy, but it is not like the other ways of buzzing. The same with rim buzzing, it is not exactly like mpc buzzing. Mpc buzzing is not exactly like trombone buzzing. For most players free buzzing is furthest away from playing, and from mpc buzzing too.

Why buzz? To build muscles? Well, I have to except that viuwpoint, I do not buy it for my self. I believe that there is no better way to build "playing muscles" than to play the instrument.
Still there can be good reasons to buzz. You may find out how your face muscles work, then you can build them on your horn. There is a risk since the you buzz can be very different from your playing, and you can get confused. You can buzz musical segments to get them in your head, then you can play the segments better in your horn.
Some stuff can be practised with buzzing away from the horn to get an idea. Singing can wery often be as good. Or better.

Any buzz can be done in a number of ways. (Surpricingly many ways) one way is to compress the lips to hard and squize the air through the lips. Another way is to let lips open by light blown air and buzz with an airy sound. I believe the last way is better. Somtimes players just quit buzz, and find that their playing work better without the buzzing.
Find out what does work for you, except that your way may be different from your teacher, budy or any pro.
We are all different.
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Re: Another buzzing question

Post by Basbasun » Fri May 15, 2020 2:11 am

That said. I do more freebuzzing then any other buzzing. I buzz melodies, anything, practise cirkular breathing and just have some fun with it. That is just me.
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Re: Another buzzing question

Post by Wilktone » Fri May 15, 2020 7:33 am

Burgerbob wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 3:00 pm
I should have said that was the case for me... not necessarily a truth. Freebuzzing is by far the most useful for me after learning how to do it at all.
Sure, of course. Out of curiosity, do you know your Elliott or Reinhardt embouchure type? It would be interesting if that's something that players of the same embouchure types consistently find feel the same.
Basbasun wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 2:07 am
There is differencies between free buzzing, rim buzzings, mpc buzzing and trombone "buzzing".
Yes. In fact, I think it's using these differences to our advantage that is what makes using some of these beneficial. For example, it's more strenuous to free buzz than play the instrument, therefore exploiting that difference can help a player develop embouchure strength and control through some free buzzing practice.
Basbasun wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 2:07 am
Why buzz? To build muscles? Well, I have to except that viuwpoint, I do not buy it for my self. I believe that there is no better way to build "playing muscles" than to play the instrument.
Maybe, but the muscles don't care how they are worked out, but they do need to be developed. Playing your instrument a lot means that you're pressing your lips between the metal mouthpiece and your teeth/gums a lot. Brass musicians who push themselves to develop strength and endurance this way need to practice carefully in order to avoid injury or actively "tearing down" their embouchures.

On the other hand, free buzzing very specifically targets the muscle group at and under the mouth corners that are required for good embouchure technique in a safe, effective way - without requiring you press metal up against your lips for a long time. It's sort of like weight lifting for your chops.

An athlete can get stronger simply by playing their sport a lot, but the serious ones also do strength training away from their sport. Lifting weights, for example, is a safe way to build strength that will translate into better athletic prowess without the risk of injury. I think of free buzzing as the same for brass musicians.

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Re: Another buzzing question

Post by Burgerbob » Fri May 15, 2020 2:17 pm

Wilktone wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 7:33 am
Burgerbob wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 3:00 pm
I should have said that was the case for me... not necessarily a truth. Freebuzzing is by far the most useful for me after learning how to do it at all.
Sure, of course. Out of curiosity, do you know your Elliott or Reinhardt embouchure type? It would be interesting if that's something that players of the same embouchure types consistently find feel the same.

No clue!
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Re: Another buzzing question

Post by Wilktone » Sat May 16, 2020 11:46 am

Burgerbob wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 2:17 pm
No clue!
Interested in learning? Post a closeup video of your chops and play some large intervals (like octave slurs spanning 1-3 octaves).

Or you could just read up on it and guess your own type. If you're going to work with that information, though, it's probably best to confirm your type with Doug or someone who can accurately check your work.

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Re: Another buzzing question

Post by Burgerbob » Sat May 16, 2020 5:31 pm

Wilktone wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 11:46 am
Burgerbob wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 2:17 pm
No clue!
Interested in learning? Post a closeup video of your chops and play some large intervals (like octave slurs spanning 1-3 octaves).

Or you could just read up on it and guess your own type. If you're going to work with that information, though, it's probably best to confirm your type with Doug or someone who can accurately check your work.

Dave
Pm sent!
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Re: Another buzzing question

Post by Wilktone » Sat May 16, 2020 6:01 pm

Burgerbob wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 5:31 pm
Pm sent!
Received!

My best guess is the Doug's "Medium High Placement" type, or a Reinhardt's IIIB. For the record, I say "guess," but I'm pretty confident you belong to that type. You exhibit all the typifying characteristics. Your mouthpiece placement has more upper lip in the mouthpiece, so it looks like one of the downstream types, but it's not as high as many other players. More importantly, your "embouchure motion" is to pull your lips and mouthpiece together down to descend and push up to descend. This is what distinguishes the "Medium High Placement/IIIB" type from the "Very High Placement/IIIA" type.

In your particular embouchure I think I see some general (and common) off-center track of your embouchure motion. It appears that you're naturally bringing your mouthpiece and lips together down and to your right side as you ascend, and your horn angle follows the shape of your teeth and jaw and comes slightly to your right in conjunction with that. The opposite works for your descending embouchure motion, you bring your mouthpiece and lips up and somewhat to your left to play in the lower register and the horn angle also follows slightly to the left.

This sort of thing is both normal and correct, but the exact amount and direction depends on the individual player and the player's most efficient embouchure type.

Thanks!

Dave
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Re: Another buzzing question

Post by Burgerbob » Sat May 16, 2020 7:01 pm

Thank you! I had assumed that was the type I was, but never had the expert help.
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Re: Another buzzing question

Post by Doug Elliott » Sat May 16, 2020 8:40 pm

I have watched Aidan's YouTube videos and I've always thought he was a IIIA (Very High Placement).
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Re: Another buzzing question

Post by Burgerbob » Sat May 16, 2020 8:43 pm

Doug Elliott wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 8:40 pm
I have watched Aidan's YouTube videos and I've always thought he was a IIIA (Very High Placement).
Just so you're working from the same material, I sent you the video I sent Dave.
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Re: Another buzzing question

Post by Doug Elliott » Sat May 16, 2020 8:53 pm

Yeah, you're a very typical IIIA who doesn't know what that means and plays half the time as a IIIB. That's the usual situation.
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Re: Another buzzing question

Post by Burgerbob » Sat May 16, 2020 10:02 pm

Doug Elliott wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 8:53 pm
Yeah, you're a very typical IIIA who doesn't know what that means and plays half the time as a IIIB. That's the usual situation.
Sounds about right! :pant:
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Re: Another buzzing question

Post by Basbasun » Sun May 17, 2020 5:40 am

Bach5G wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 10:56 am
My uni teacher -a Chicago guy - was a buzzer. Ian B came to town in the 90s to promote his 682B and he, too, was a buzzer.

So, I’m a buzzer too, free, mpc, and using a FART.

I recently noticed Mr T Oft was promoting buzzing using only a rim. I tried this on a DE rim and found it more difficult than expected.

Why would that be? What advantages are ther to buzzing on the rim alone?
As you can see, there are many thought about buzzing, I have mine, others have theirs. I have tried many ways, maybe not all there is but all kinds I know.
How can you know what way is best? Well you can´t before you try them. That takes a lot of time. As long as you have your teacher I think it is a good idea to try his advice. If you after a resonable long time have doubs, try another way.
I see lots of good players do buzz different ways, they are all good.
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Re: Another buzzing question

Post by torobone » Mon May 18, 2020 12:42 pm

If you want to buzz with a mouthpiece alone, you can increase the resistance by using your baby finger to partially block the airflow. Alternatively, you can buy a device to do so.

I bought a BERP a long time ago, and was given a BuzzzMaster from a retiring player. Trying to find a FART via Google led me to some humorous results, but not helpful for my intended purpose.
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Re: Another buzzing question

Post by Bach5G » Mon May 18, 2020 1:22 pm

A FART (Focused Aperture Resistance Trainer or words to that effect) is a 9” (Sauer) or 6” (Reynolds) length of .5” PVC irrigation piping usually available at your local hardware store. I buy a linear foot and ask them to cut it in two. It costs about a dollar/foot.

Sauer recommends drilling a hole in one side about 3” from the end while Reynolds recommends using a 6” length that is too short to set up an overtone series.
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Re: Another buzzing question

Post by Wilktone » Tue May 19, 2020 10:18 am

Doug Elliott wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 8:53 pm
Yeah, you're a very typical IIIA who doesn't know what that means and plays half the time as a IIIB. That's the usual situation.
Yeah, I've found Aiden's YouTube channel and watched some more of his videos. Based on what I saw there I would guess "Very High Placement"/IIIA, but the video he posted and sent via private message was all "Medium High Placement"/IIIB.

It's probably worth catching a lesson from Doug, when you can, to get that sorted out. It's one of those things that might go away on its own, but if it doesn't it can cause trouble later on.

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Re: Another buzzing question

Post by timothy42b » Tue May 19, 2020 11:38 am

Wilktone wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 10:18 am
Doug Elliott wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 8:53 pm
Yeah, you're a very typical IIIA who doesn't know what that means and plays half the time as a IIIB. That's the usual situation.
Yeah, I've found Aiden's YouTube channel and watched some more of his videos. Based on what I saw there I would guess "Very High Placement"/IIIA, but the video he posted and sent via private message was all "Medium High Placement"/IIIB.


Dave
There might be a learning moment there for all of us - without an occasional checkup, maybe it's easy to slip into doing something different without realizing it.
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Re: Another buzzing question

Post by Doug Elliott » Tue May 19, 2020 12:50 pm

Actually Aidan sent me the same video. I recognize that situation right away, I see it all the time.
In the time I studied with Reinhardt I saw several cases where Reinhardt himself misdiagnosed players the same way.
It's a particular "look" and sound and pitch that I have learned to recognize.
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Re: Another buzzing question

Post by Wilktone » Wed May 20, 2020 1:23 pm

Doug Elliott wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 12:50 pm
Actually Aidan sent me the same video. I recognize that situation right away, I see it all the time.
In the time I studied with Reinhardt I saw several cases where Reinhardt himself misdiagnosed players the same way.
It's a particular "look" and sound and pitch that I have learned to recognize.
You might remember my two trumpet player friends that I brought along a few years ago for lessons. They were both doing the same thing. I could tell something wasn't quite right, but you sorted them both out as IIIAs/Very High Placement. I don't think I've seen any player doing this type switching end up as IIIB/Medium High Placement, but I would still consider it as a possibility.

I've ended up with the impression that Reinhardt favored a "IIIB for now" approach, but I think most of that is based on things I've heard from some of his former students who are IIIBs.

Here's a brief intro into these embouchure types, if you can't follow what we're talking about. Should we maybe move this discussion into its own thread?

https://www.trombone.org/articles/view.php?id=30

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Re: Another buzzing question

Post by Doug Elliott » Wed May 20, 2020 4:15 pm

Yes Reinhardt frequently called players "IIIB for now" if he wasn't sure.
At this point I extremely dislike that designation for several reasons. A lot of those players never went back for a second lesson so nothing was accomplished except to confuse them.

Reinhardt made some mistakes, but the principles of his teaching were and still are pure gold.
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Re: Another buzzing question

Post by Bach5G » Wed May 20, 2020 4:20 pm

How would being Very High Placement"/IIIA, as opposed to "Medium High Placement"/IIIB change what, in this case, Aidan should be doing?
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Re: Another buzzing question

Post by Doug Elliott » Wed May 20, 2020 4:41 pm

It's a lot of fine-tuning involving horn manipulation, jaw position, lip position, mouthpiece placement, tongue manipulation, etc., for how you negotiate the entire range of the horn. I give away a lot of free information here but teaching this stuff is a large part of how I earn a living. I don't give it all away.
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Re: Another buzzing question

Post by Burgerbob » Wed May 20, 2020 5:05 pm

I'm planning on a lesson soon!
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Re: Another buzzing question

Post by BurckhardtS » Wed May 20, 2020 6:10 pm

Do it!
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Re: Another buzzing question

Post by biggiesmalls » Thu May 21, 2020 8:45 am

Several decades ago, Herb Bruce had me rim buzzing octave glissandos while watching my aperture in a mirror, with the objective being to do as much work as possible at the aperture while limiting the motions going on outside the rim as much as possible. Essentially using the eyes to train the chops. IIRC, Herb adapted this technique from Ed Kleinhammer's teaching.

I have to say that I gained a lot of speed and control in my lip slurs on the horn, in a short period of time, using this technique. The visual feedback of watching the aperture in action was, for me, an effective way to train the muscle fibers inside the rim to do more of the work, more quickly and more efficiently.

But Abbie Conant pointed out to me that this type of visual/mechanical training, or Buddy Baker's belief in watching oneself play in a mirror, is a highly individual matter that works better for some than others, and for some, it can actually be unconstructive.

So, YMMV...
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Re: Another buzzing question

Post by baileyman » Fri May 22, 2020 5:45 am

biggiesmalls wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 8:45 am
Several decades ago, Herb Bruce had me rim buzzing octave glissandos while watching my aperture in a mirror, with the objective being to do as much work as possible at the aperture ...
Interesting. I let the aperture do as close to nothing as possible. The rest is tongue. I suppose there's more than one way to kill the cat.
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