Endurance building

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kingtempo504
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Endurance building

Post by kingtempo504 » Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:48 pm

When it comes to building chop endurance I have a question. Is it smarter to push pass the point once I feel tired to build endurance and play longer. It seems like it may be a faster method than stopping as soon as I feel tired. If I keep stopping every time I get tired won't I basically stay at the same level. Point being if I start to feel tired at the 55 minute mark ( to build endurance) shouldn't I keep pushing at least til the 70 minute mark? I appreciate all answers just trying to figure this out. Thanks.
hyperbolica
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Re: Endurance building

Post by hyperbolica » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:08 pm

You're not going to build anything without pushing past your comfortable limits. That includes range, volume, endurance, speed, intonation, reading, everything. Of course you don't want to injure yourself, be careful of that.

I used to play 6 hours a day high and loud. Know how I did it? By playing 6 hours a day high and loud. You won't build endurance by taking it easy. It's just like physical training (because it Is physical training).
WilliamLang
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Re: Endurance building

Post by WilliamLang » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:56 pm

i recommend playing until your lips gently buzz when you put the horn down, but never to the point of sharp pain (or overall pain.) to me, you have to train like a marathon runner and build slowly with a long term goal in mind,

best of luck!
William Lang
Professor of Trombone, the Longy School of Music
founding member of loadbang
www.williamlang.org
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harrisonreed
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Re: Endurance building

Post by harrisonreed » Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:20 pm

I have found that the more I try to "push through" the less endurance I have in the end. Sure the corners go if you're out of shape. But endurance always ends up being about getting the right compression of air and tongue position for the tessitura and dynamic. Get it right, and I can play for a long time. Get it wrong and the corners compensate, and the lips go fast.

These are tiny tiny muscles. You don't train them like you train your legs or arms. It's all about finesse. For me.
Carolus
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Re: Endurance building

Post by Carolus » Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:42 am

There are training regimes, developed mostly for sports where you work in cycles of several weeks, building strength and endurance but also catering for sufficient rest. I have heard that there are adaptions of these to brass playing. In these exceptional times it might actually be possible to follow such a program without concerts/gigs destroying the schedule.
afugate
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Re: Endurance building

Post by afugate » Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:55 am

harrisonreed wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:20 pm
I have found that the more I try to "push through" the less endurance I have in the end. Sure the corners go if you're out of shape. But endurance always ends up being about getting the right compression of air and tongue position for the tessitura and dynamic. Get it right, and I can play for a long time. Get it wrong and the corners compensate, and the lips go fast.

These are tiny tiny muscles. You don't train them like you train your legs or arms. It's all about finesse. For me.
I find this sentiment to be true for me. When I'm playing effectively (wish it were effortlessly) then my endurance goes through the roof. Part of my practice is working to replace incorrect things with correct things. It's when I let old habits take over that I find my endurance is shot.

As always, YMMV.

--Andy in OKC
Pre59
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Re: Endurance building

Post by Pre59 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:32 am

The length and practice type should ideally reflect the the end music destination. The op lists small bore instruments, which suggests jazz, so an hour on the chops in one sitting, and then the same amount of time on theory/keyboards before returning to the tbn would make more sense IMO.
norbie2018
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Re: Endurance building

Post by norbie2018 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:35 am

It strikes me that there are two basic ways of improving endurance. The first is to rest as long as you play while practicing. That would mean that if I'm working on an Arban exercise for 3 minutes, that I rest and do something else for 3 minutes. For me, that's something else is listening to recordings of other trombonists that I wish to emulate. The other method is playing pieces from beginning to end without an extended rest period. Naturally, there are mini rests when playing and sometimes extended rest if it's indicated in the music, but the point is that you're playing the piece completely through without stopping. This is important to practicing in general, but it is also a way of building endurance. You can sort of look like it as you would cross training in athletics.
baileyman
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Re: Endurance building

Post by baileyman » Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:13 am

harrisonreed wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:20 pm
I have found that the more I try to "push through" the less endurance I have in the end. Sure the corners go if you're out of shape. But endurance always ends up being about getting the right compression of air and tongue position for the tessitura and dynamic. Get it right, and I can play for a long time. Get it wrong and the corners compensate, and the lips go fast.

These are tiny tiny muscles. You don't train them like you train your legs or arms. It's all about finesse. For me.
One can apply more strength as fatigue sets in, but that seems to accelerate the fatigue. I have not found that practicing into the fatigue zone helps. I have, however, found that having a resonant setup dramatically reduces effort. I'd say, when one feels effort increase, it's because something is out of tune, requiring effort to make up for it. So, yes, mouth volumes, tongue shape, tonguing movements that do not disturb tune, lip curl, connecting high range to low and back, finding resonant setups at volume. When moving from a slightly out of tune setup to a resonant one, the effect is obvious, and revelatory the first time.

One thing in particular has eluded me and that is the 50s lead style of Urbie or the section style of the Kai Winding four bone groups. It's energetic and percussive (most sections these days are flaccid by comparison). Anyway, i haven't found a solution for low effort in that style.
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TimBrown
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Re: Endurance building

Post by TimBrown » Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:22 am

norbie2018 wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:35 am
It strikes me that there are two basic ways of improving endurance. The first is to rest as long as you play while practicing. That would mean that if I'm working on an Arban exercise for 3 minutes, that I rest and do something else for 3 minutes. For me, that's something else is listening to recordings of other trombonists that I wish to emulate. The other method is playing pieces from beginning to end without an extended rest period. Naturally, there are mini rests when playing and sometimes extended rest if it's indicated in the music, but the point is that you're playing the piece completely through without stopping. This is important to practicing in general, but it is also a way of building endurance. You can sort of look like it as you would cross training in athletics.
Yes!

The individual exercises in Arbans is good for me in gaining basic endurance on a single-trigger bass trombone. If you look at Arbans, it is all flexibility, accuracy and velocity in the tenor middle range. Couple that with some range extension exercises in both directions, as well as plenty of work in the fantasy variations and I can give myself a great middle-range tenor workout on bass trombone in about 1 1/2 hours in the morning.

In the evening, it is all lower bass trombone ballads for another 1 1/2 hours and at the end of it, I feel as though I have soothed over any roughed-up chops from the morning and have ended the day with a nice lip massage.

A good night's rest and at it again the next morning. Since I have adopted this split program, everything about my bass trombone playing is rapidly improving, including my ability for long practice in chunks (as you noted) and getting nicely through long, tedious pieces as well, both high and low.
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