TromboneChat

bigbandbone wrote: ↑Mon May 18, 2020 10:55 am Another question for all of you Teele devotees. When you play the long sets of low tones do you remove the mouthpiece from your lips between notes, or keep contact with your lips between notes.
I seem to get a better result if I break contact between notes and then re-establish contact. But if that's wrong I'd like too know.

I remove the mouthpiece from the lips when doing PT. When I do the six notes I keep the contact.

Basbasun wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 2:06 am

bigbandbone wrote: ↑Mon May 18, 2020 10:55 am Another question for all of you Teele devotees. When you play the long sets of low tones do you remove the mouthpiece from your lips between notes, or keep contact with your lips between notes.
I seem to get a better result if I break contact between notes and then re-establish contact. But if that's wrong I'd like too know.

I remove the mouthpiece from the lips when doing PT. When I do the six notes I keep the contact.

Thanks

Great thread...

I'm in my 6th rotation of doing these routines. Some observations I'm having....

-Think of these as strength training. Follow the instructions and rest when done.
-Air is definitely getting more efficient.
-More relaxed high register...less tense and less pinching.
-Better connectivity between registers.
-Recognizing that I depended more on shifting to get through at the expense of embouchure strength/endurance.

I started with only on my bass for the first 3 rotations, adding/building sets. During the 4th rotation, I started adding my contrabass to the routine. I'm in my 6th rotation and doing these all on Contra.

Day 3 is today....wish me luck!

Johnstad wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 11:09 am Great thread...

I'm in my 6th rotation of doing these routines. Some observations I'm having....

-Think of these as strength training. Follow the instructions and rest when done.
-Air is definitely getting more efficient.
-More relaxed high register...less tense and less pinching.
-Better connectivity between registers.
-Recognizing that I depended more on shifting to get through at the expense of embouchure strength/endurance.

I started with only on my bass for the first 3 rotations, adding/building sets. During the 4th rotation, I started adding my contrabass to the routine. I'm in my 6th rotation and doing these all on Contra.

Day 3 is today....wish me luck!

Good luck!
I'm up to 3 sets on the day 2 stuff. But I do all chromatic notes from the starting Eb
down to pedal Eb. On alternating days I do articulated notes in the same order ala Ralph.

For folks looking to do these, keep a log book. Log the number of sets you do, feedback for yourself to review. It's pretty cool reflecting on progress.

It makes sense that spending lots of time in the low register would lead to better air usage, embochure strength, maybe flexiblility of lip tissue, etc. It also makes sense that less shifting/no shifting would make it easier to connect registers with a good sound.

I wonder how much of the benefit would be gained if similar exercises and time is devoted but also still use the shift?

It seems most professional serious bass trombone players use a shift and then focus on pulling the lower setting up and vice versa to allow for more flexibility in a passage. The focus seems to be in blending the different settings and timing it in ala Sam Burtis Bel Canto idea.

I'm a big fan of Reinhardt "pivot" style playing. It works great for me and makes sense. Playing without a "pivot/shift" seem counter to that idea. I get that no shift has benefits but it seems the strength/lip tissue flexibility required is needed due to the lack of leverage by using a small, subtle, well timed, shift.

If much of the benefit is from spending lots of time down there and getting more efficient and better due to the time, a shift seems to be less of a problem especially since most professional bass players use a shift. It does not seem to hurt their playing. Obviously it takes and effort to shift well but doesn't seem like shiftless playing is required.

It seems like Teele's specific demands of his job, long recording sessions at loud volumes in the basement, make his routine perfect for that specific gig. But for most bass trombone players, that is not what is required. Maybe some loud stuff low in a stage band or something but not the crazy low loud stuff required of a recording studio musician working on movies.

I also suspect that playing effectively without the shift is also heavily dependent on the face, lips, tongue, teeth, etc of the specific players. Some folks probably even with tons of time with these exercises, probably don't have a face for it. This seems to be the case with doodle tonguing. It seems some folks faces just don't get it going as clearly as others and no matter the effort or time, it probably won't be that good.

I'm going to experiment with these exercises for a while as best I can with the time I have, I want to decrease my habit of puffing cheeks too much and the no shift play a pedal like the note an octave up stuff is what I'm working on.


Caveat:

Most of this is post is just me asking the folks who do this type of routine often and have maybe taught it to see what they have found. I'm not pretending to be an expert on it or in any way crapping on the idea.

It makes good sense to me. Just asking questions, please take the question as I intend it. Thanks.

I recently noted Mr Markey discussing shifting in a video he did on low range. My impression was that Mr M’s shift was closer to what most bass trombonists actually do.

What is a "shift". I take it as moving the placement of the mouthpiece on the lips. I do not believ that the "pivot" is a shift as the mpc stays on the same spot on the lips, even though there is an embouchure movement. I try to not change the mpc on my lips when doing the PT. Sometimes when I play loud low range in bands I do shift, move the mpc to get more upperlip that is for me. Two different situations.

Basbasun wrote: ↑Thu May 21, 2020 3:09 pm What is a "shift". I take it as moving the placement of the mouthpiece on the lips. I do not believ that the "pivot" is a shift as the mpc stays on the same spot on the lips, even though there is an embouchure movement. I try to not change the mpc on my lips when doing the PT. Sometimes when I play loud low range in bands I do shift, move the mpc to get more upperlip that is for me. Two different situations.

My thoughts as well. A shift implies (at least to me...) that you're drastically changing the mouthpiece position on the face.

There is plenty of confusion of what a shift means. It is a bad term. What happens is depending on the range, the angle of the mouthpiece and the chops slide up or down along the teeth. The location of the mouthpiece does not change.

If you watch any trombone player play harmonic series slurs, you can clearly see they are changing the angle of the horn and probably also sliding the chops up or down depending on embochure type.

Lips are weak muscles, in order to direct the air to the right spot in the cup for a given note, and to put the proper pressure on the proper lip, a subtle change in the angle and sliding of the chops up or down does that.

There is no taking the mouthpiece off and placing it again in a different spot so connecting the registers is not too tuff.

I had a lesson with DE and understand the difference. It seems to me that nearly everyone will have a significant shift for those last few notes.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Thu May 21, 2020 4:27 pm I had a lesson with DE and understand the difference. It seems to me that nearly everyone will have a significant shift for those last few notes.

But to put that in context, the purpose of practicing is to NOT shift so you get better at NOT shifting. My attitude is, if you have to shift for those "last few notes" then don't play them. Continue working down toward that point. You have to be patient, it can take months or years for real progress to happen but it's worth it.

Yes my idea too.
Maybe you do shift in some place where you really need to het the tones uot.
But when you do the PT exercise I think the idea is to not shift.
If you don´t get the tones, just blow air and hope that the tones will come one day. Don´t shift, keep the lips together. It does take time, if you want them keep trying. Take deep breaths. Blow thick but slow.

After spending 5 months working on the Teele excercises my "shift" point has moved 3 half steps down! When I started I was shifting for pedal Bb. Now pedal G is 50/50, and pedal Gb is my definite shift point. Being able to play octave jumps into the pedal range without shifting has made things like the opening phrase of Soul Bassa Nova a lot easier.

I guess the bottom line is do what you've gotta do to play the notes you gotta play.

Yes, I remember PT saying do what you have to do on the gig to get the notes, but don’t shift when you’re practicing the routines.

It really does take a while. Each further note down takes adjustment internally and embouchure wise from the note before it, and down in that range the trombone is almost a different instrument. You've gotta slow the airflow way down. Only practice will finally get it to work.

My bass trombone pedal range is the same whether I'm using a Faxx 1 1/2G or a Ferguson LS. Many great players used the Bach 1 1/2G and got great pedal tones and range. Just gotta work at it. Of course if your anatomy/style requires a bigger mouthpiece, definitely get one.

I bought the Teele book in the mid-2000's, and set to work. Pretty quickly, I had some questions about the exercises that the book (leaflet?) didn't really answer. At the time (2007), you could purchase some videos of Phil describing his routine from a now-defunct website. So I purchased them, hoping to get some more tips, and importantly, to see and hear Phil do the exercises himself.

And it turns out I still have those videos!

I'm not comfortable uploading these anywhere at this stage, but I thought I'd take some notes and quotes from the videos and share them here for those that are exploring this routine. Quotes are Phil's, parentheses are mine.

Day one:

- Phil starts on Eb because it uses both triggers, and implies you can start on D if that’s the way your horn is set up

- “If possible, you want to use a breath attack, not using your tongue, just using your breath to start the lips, then the lips will come right to the right spot”

- “You do 20 of those in a row, taking the biggest breath you can possibly take, hold it as long as you can, and play it about mezzo-forte, and then as you go through the second 10 you get a little louder, crescendo a little bit, so you’re playing pretty loud by the end of the 20th note.

- “You want to start out with just two sets for the first month at least, and thereafter, maybe every week or two, you want to add another set.”

- “You want to play loud notes, so that you’re pushing against the lips; you’re not blowing them apart, but you’re just pushing on them, so that there’s some resistance there.”


Day two:

- Again reminds us that we’re starting off using both triggers.

- “We’re starting on the Eb again in first position with both triggers, or if you’re in D you can start on D, or you can play your Eb in 3rd with the F-trigger”

- “That’s pretty much the volume you should play at (piu mezzo-forte to my ears?) but as you get to the 5th set, you can start playing louder”

- “If you feel something coming apart (pointing at the chops) then back off a little bit. You always want to keep your lips as together as you can. As you play louder, they’ll open up a little bit, but some people tend to open up like 'AAAAAHHHHH.' Don’t do that.” You play it the same way as you play a low A”

Day three:

- When describing the scales (which are listed at the start of Day 3) Phil says “Let me make a correction: Scale 4 is done with only an Ab and a Db in it, so it’s kind of an interesting sound”

- The book has the first 8 notes marked with a phrase mark. Phil breathes after every second note when he plays this phrase. As it gets higher, he breathes less often.

- “In the beginning, at the bottom, you’re going to have to take more breaths, obviously, but as you get more in the upper register, you take less and less of a breath, and try to make the whole phrase without taking a breath. But if you need to, you need to.”


Day 4/5:

- “If you’re ever in doubt about the position of how a note should be played, go back to an area you know, like the middle register, then play an octave lower in the same place”


I hope these notes are of use to someone. I've decided to revisit the routine, after not looking at it for a decade. I approach it a little sceptical as to whether this will actually be of any use to me at this point of my career. But with no gigs on the horizon, I have some time on my hands, so what the heck, maybe I'll learn a little something!

Andrew

Really helpful stuff, Andrew!!

Thank you Andrew, thats some good info! I will corect my scales.

Basbasun wrote: ↑Sun May 24, 2020 2:44 am Thank you Andrew, thats some good info! I will corect my scales.

In regards to the scales, I suspect it’s a case of “ain’t what you do, it’s the way that you do it...”

Andrew

Thanks for the great information Andrew!

If not shifting is important and takes years of 2 hour practice on this one area to get rid of the shift, why do most top level professionals shift and advocate practicing the shift to make it work for what they do?

Clearly, it can't be that important. I can see how it would be a benefit and will incorporate a modified version into my practice but why spend that amount of time each day just to get a subtle benefit in an extreme range almost no one is called to play?

I don't have 5 hours a day to practice, and even if I did, it would seem a bit goofy to spend half of it playing long tones in the basement in order to get a subtle improvement due to no shift on notes that are rarely called for. If I could come up with a reason to become a basement expert, I might give it a go but I don't have one. There are too many other areas of playing that need to be maintained. All that focus down low, with the occasional high note exercise seems foolish. Not for Teele of course, but he has an unusual and uncommon gig and specialty.

I would be curios to see a traditional shifter and non shifter play similar licks to see if it makes any difference to someone in front of the bell. I'm sure it is easier for the non shifter to do some huge range extreme low stuff, but I doubt it sounds different in front.

This may be a species of a thing I see bass trombone players do. Kind of a macho, "see how low and loud I can play." So they buy giant heavy equipment, giant mouthpieces, and spend all day playing super loud low stuff. The audience doesn't want to hear it. The music doesn't call for it. It is purely for the benefit of the player and the couple of bass trombone players in the audience who freak out at a monster pedal note.

And, the string players are complaining to the union about the hearing damage and they put an acoustic aquarium in front of the bass trombone. Doesn't seem like art or music making to me. Also, has the detrimental effect of an unfocused core heavy sound that doesn't project well or blend, weak high notes, inarticulate articulation, etc.

Maybe the point is to build endurance for long gigs? That would make a little sense but I would find a more efficient way to build endurance while doing something that covers multiple areas while getting lots of face time. Watching a movie while blowing notes seems like you are building bad mental habits. So much of playing is mental focus. If I needed to improve endurance I would get the smallest most efficient equipment I can get away with and get lots of face time working fundamentals and sight reading or something in order to get the mental practice and focus in as well.

I'm not saying that is what is going on but it is the best I can figure. IMHO.

Well, it worked for Phil, who is unequivocally one of the most successful bass trombonists of all time, so there's that.

Different strokes for different folks. And IMHO sometimes the music does call for it and the audience does want to hear.

Fair enough.

It seems there has always been a lot of resistance, in the low brass community especially, to ideas that involve playing attention to HOW you play. So many of the popular ideologies - and I would include Jacobs, Caruso, Maggio, and others - focus on letting your body figure it out on it's own. That has worked well for some people, mainly the ones who have made it into top positions and don't know how to teach any other way so they repeat it.

It's true that "most top level professionals shift and advocate practicing the shift to make it work" but virtually all of them also advocate minimizing it because they know it's a problem to work around.

I don't think it's necessary to spend hours on pedals, but it is good to do them in a mechanically correct way, and truly understand what that means, in order to "minimize" or eliminate the problems that shifting causes.

The Teele method is sort of a long workaround without having an understanding of how and why.

Thanks Doug.

That makes perfect sense and answers what I'm trying to figure out. I agree, it seems most folks don't understand embouchure mechanics or what they think they know is goofy.

I figure it is like when working on a Reinhart style pivot/shift/mvt/whatever. At first when learning, maybe exaggerate the movement to get a feel for it and make it feel natural until it becomes a new habit. Then later, you work on minimizing, blending, smoothing it out. That makes sense to me.

This seems like a very inefficient way to get at proper embouchure mechanics in the low register. I'm sure it works when actually done as described but most/almost all folks don't have the kinda time to do it.

A few thoughts on shifting in the lowest register:

For the sake of this post, “shift” means a mouthpiece setting (physically moving the mouthpiece) in a manner inconsistent with the natural motion that any particular embouchure type commonly experiences in the register immediately preceding the notes that are played with a shift.

Example: A typical very high placement embouchure type will tend to feel that the mouthpiece gradually sits higher on the lips as the notes ascend, and will tend to feel that the mouthpiece gradually sits lower on the lips as the notes descend. For the very high placement embouchure type, this would mean deliberately re-setting the mouthpiece very high on the lips in the very lowest register. This is the “shift” that Teele wants us to avoid in the pedal tone register (fundamental tone), commonly beginning around pedal G or G-flat. Thus:

Pros of shifting:
Easier for notes to speak in the very lowest register
Easier to play very loud in the lowest register
You might need to shift in a performance situation in order to play the notes


Cons of shifting:
It takes time to move from one mouthpiece setting to another
The sound is inconsistent from one mouthpiece setting to another
It is difficult to produce fluid dynamic changes with a shifted mouthpiece setting


Pros of not shifting:
Eventually, with practice, things sound, respond, and feel consistent throughout all registers


Cons of not shifting:
It takes time, deliberate practice, and patience to develop consistency
You might need to shift in a performance situation in order to play the notes


I’m sure there’s more here…

What do Doug Yeo’s fMRI videos show wrt the extreme low register?

It almost doesn't matter what it shows because nothing about it is the same as playing the instrument normally.

aasavickas wrote: ↑Sun May 24, 2020 8:32 am If not shifting is important and takes years of 2 hour practice on this one area to get rid of the shift, why do most top level professionals shift and advocate practicing the shift to make it work for what they do?

Clearly, it can't be that important. I can see how it would be a benefit and will incorporate a modified version into my practice but why spend that amount of time each day just to get a subtle benefit in an extreme range almost no one is called to play?

I'm speculating a bit and please don't think I'm claiming any expertise.

I think that pro's might shift because they can; their skills and especially timing lets them do things we mortals and especially amateurs like me can't get away with.

The risk for an amateur is that we confuse ourself and become inconsistent, and sometimes that can take us down a rabbit hole. At the same time it's harder for us to learn to get down there without shifting. So we're kind of stuck either way. For me the risk is that shifting to get low might screw up the progress I've made in the middle and high register, which is where I normally play, so I do my best not to shift.

That said, I've never spent the time on Teele trying to see if I can get down there consistently without a shift. If I had a lot of time off it might be worth it but I'm still working despite the COVID and even busier at work.

On the alto pBone (sigh - my wrist is getting better but I'm still stuck playing that thing for a bit) the pedal Eb is the same note as trigger Eb on the tenor. It's starting to speak a little, not that I will ever be called on to play it.

Most of the stuff I've read and seen on pivoting/shifting/whatever you call it, focuses on starting with figuring our what works for your anatomy and embochure type, then maybe exaggerate while working thru lip slurs up and down the harmonic series. Then once you get the hang of it, do it less and try to minimize the movement as much as you can. James Markey said something like, "move as much as you need to but no more." seems reasonable to me.

Also, I like a kind of bel canto/mixed voice approach. In singing, folks try to blend the different voices, i.e. take the chest voice higher, the head voice lower, create kind of a blended voice, then work on smoothing out the transition. If you need more power go for the voice that gets the job done.

Same idea with embochure. Take the low setting and play with it up as high as you can. Then take your high setting and take it down as low as you can. Kind of develop a mixed setting. Then go about smoothing out all the bumps or gaps.

It seems the Teele approach is to pull that upper setting down. Why not do both?

In my own playing, I do the pivot/shift/movement. I don't reset the placement of the mouthpiece but I change the angle of the horn a tiny bit and the chops slide on the teeth up or down a bit depending on the register a small amount. Now it is so subtle that you can't really even see the movement. It works for my face. I am pretty happy with my range. I can slur from a bottom line Bb up to a Bb an 2 octaves above middle C and back down to the double pedal Bb on one breath without taking the mouthpiece off and resetting. Can always get better but at least in my case, I figured out what works for my face.

I have never really spent much time working dragging the normal setting down into the super low setting but I am going to give it a go for a while and see how it goes. I'm sure it will help smooth things out even more.

Tongue position also plays an important role especially at the extreme high and low ends. Also, on the extreme low side, getting the air moving slow enough with very little push is tricky. I think one of the comments in the Teele book mentioned the slowness of the air.

Really great discussion and information!

I don't do the actual Teele method, but have in my youth (almost 20 years ago) for a while done something that kind of went in that direction. However I was missing quite some of the directions of HOW to practice it.
I think it was beneficial back then, however I had a strong and reliable low register basically from the start.

From today's perspective I had not practiced low register on the bass trombone for a long time, just touched it whenever I practiced bass, which was not very frequent for quite some time.
However for a few weeks now I more or less regularly do some exercises that are not the same, but follow the same general idea. I feel it very quickly made my low register, but also my overall bass playing much more stable and reliable again.
I take care to keep it well controlled and really follow the basics - keeping the corners tight, not moving/shifting the mouthpiece (too much) and full, relaxed breathing.

"It seems the Teele approach is to pull that upper setting down. Why not do both?"

Well you can say that. But I think the idea is to keep the setting when doing the scale exercise from C1 to F5 also. WOW to keep the same setting over the whole range.

But as said many times now, when doing a gig you do what you have to do.
My self, I do practise both play low and high whit the same setting. And practise the shift. Sometimes (very selldom though) it is needed.

I practised scale #4 today, its a gypsy scale isn´t it? Somebody? Tomas? It is kind of nice...

Well, by now I have been practising the PT stuff for almost two month. (I did spend some time on it befor but not as serious) To me it has been some experince! Now I know that I can play scalen paterns from C1 to F5 with no shoft.
(but to play loud from pedal F and down I am pernitted to shift by my self, when playing music) and chromatic long loud tones, hundres of them down to A0. Well the lowest ones is not very loud It has made me more avere about how my embouchure works.
But now I am finished with it in favor of music.
By PT stuff!

Someone just posted Teele videos on YouTube. Good stuff!

bigbandbone wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 5:07 am Someone just posted Teele videos on YouTube. Good stuff!

Oh wow! That’s great!

That’s the videos my notes came from. That poster is obviously a little less concerned with copyright infringement than I am...

TheBoneRanger wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 9:40 pm That’s the videos my notes came from. That poster is obviously a little less concerned with copyright infringement than I am...

Finding those videos on youtube led me to buy the book, so maybe we let the lawyers fight over bigger chum.

There's a lot of debate over a pretty simple routine. The way I'd sum the exercises up is:

- Get comfortable in the low register and using both triggers, because that is an important skill for a bass trombone player to have

- Play those notes using the same embouchure you use for the rest of your range, because that's an important skill for a bass trombone player to have

- Connect those notes to your middle and upper registers using your ear, and train your ear to hear some uncommon intervals, so you place notes accurately, because that is a very important skill for a trombone player to have.

The videos address quite a few misconceptions that seem to be popping up. I've heard these exercises described as "play pedals as loud as you can, as long as you can." He DOES tell you to play loud... but he knows you can't. In the videos, Phil is very clearly playing in the "mp" to "mf" regime. He mentions that you CAN add some crescendos, but only after you've developed some strength. Incidentally, this advice precedes the Marsteller book (which on its surface appears to be a polar opposite to the Teele book).

In addition, lots of people say "this is something you do in front of the TV." I think that can be a dangerous thing. A big part of what informs the exercises is a focus on meditation and improvisation. Phil mentions in one of the videos that the scales from Day 3 are inspired by Indian Ragas. How are you supposed to focus on hearing these unfamiliar intervals when you're rewatching The Office for the eighth time? I can see the utility of some mindless tube during the prescribed 15-20 minute breaks, but not during the exercises. He tells you to play some light jazz on Day 4... how focused are you on phrasing something if you're listening to a podcast? The exercises command a great deal of focus and discipline, which are very important skills for trombone players to have.