Big Valve

How and what to teach and learn.
sungfw
Posts: 221
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:15 am

Re: Big Valve

Post by sungfw »

ThePousane, thank you for taking the time to provide more background information on the valve and the leadpipe issues. Based on your description of the larger context, and in the absence of a countervailing explanation by your teacher, it certainly appears that your teacher is being unreasonable in this situation.
ThePousane wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:30 pm Another thing you said was how “wouldn't like it if a third party to post a very incomplete, report of something you said or did that reflected badly on your character and competence.” The thing is, I’m not saying the teacher is bad in character or incompetent at all.
Please note that I did not accuse you of doing so, nor did I take issue with your presentation of the interaction with your teacher in your original post. What I do take issue with is quickness and seeming ease with which others who, possessing only the barest skeleton of the story, were willing to attribute your teacher's stance to malfeasance. So while your post—or, more precisely, some of the responses to your post—was the occasion for my screed, it was not the cause of it. I could have made that more clear, or at least have communicated that to you via PM, from the outset, and apologize to you for not doing so.

In fact, I'm impressed by the underlying composure of your articulation of what must be an incredibly frustrating and aggravating situation. Nevertheless, I stand by my assertion that none of us should automatically or reflexively assume a claim or assertion made in an internet forum (or in any other medium, for that matter, but especially in an internet forum)—no matter how eloquent—to be the gospel truth, and casually impugn the individual or institution in question solely on that basis. (Yes, we all inevitably filter claims and assertions through our own experiences and our personal and political beliefs, and we all suffer from confirmation bias, but that is not an adequate excuse to assume the worst about someone—especially someone whom we don't know—when it costs us little, if anything (save, perhaps, our confidence in the infallibility of our judgement), to grant to others the benefit of doubt we want others to grant to us.)

One last comment:
Finally, to your point on ensemble playing/employment, I have yet to play the horn in an ensemble or see my teacher again (due to COVID-19) and I am not employed by the teacher, as others have said. The student-teacher relationship is only bounded by a scholarship, which I am allowed to drop at anytime, which also leads to another thought.
While you are not employed by the teacher in the ordinary sense of being remunerated (paid to play) for your performance, in a broad sense, you are employed by the teacher, in that you are remunerated, principally in the form of knowledge and experience (which are the primary currency of educational transactions) as well as in the form of the scholarship, to be a member of his studio. (Certainly, for income tax purposes, scholarships are classified as income, and subject to income tax (though uses of scholarship moneys, such as tuition and fees, required books and supplies, etc.), are tax exempt.) The conditions attached to receiving the scholarship, such as being a member of his studio, satisfactory academic progress, performance requirements, etc., are, for all intents and purposes, "conditions" of your (continuing) employment.

On possibly related, note: for budgetary reasons, a neighbor—a saxophonist with a DMA in performance, former director of marching bands (2007-2013) and adjunct faculty member at a nearby univ since 2003—and another long-serving adjunct in the department, were recently "constructively discharged" through a combination of the music dept: a) admissions committee declining to admit new students (for the second consecutive year) to their respecive studios; b) reducing both the number and monetary value of scholarships offered to their students for the '20-'21 academic year (and leaving them to break the news to their current students, both undergrad and grad); c) offering them a contract for '20-21 that amounted to a 67% reduction in their current hourly pay rate; AND informing them of all of this in an email (then acted surprised and hurt when they turned the contracts down).

That may not be directly germane to your situation, but if your teacher's studio is affiliated with an educational instution rather than a private studio, he may be under pressure from the administration to reduce the size of his studio (or there may be pressure to reduce or eliminate the music program entirely) to ease the financial burden. If that is the case, his otherwise seemingly inexplicable stance may be a clumsy way of by inducing students to decide to leave "of their own accord" in order to avoid having to have the difficult, awkward face-to-face conversation with students that they are—to use a sports analogy—"being cut" (That doesn't in any way justify or excuse it, if that is the case; but, having been in both positions (employer/teacher and employee/student) at various times and in various contexts, I can understand why someone might opt to go about it in that way.)
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Matt K
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Re: Big Valve

Post by Matt K »

That's really splitting hairs. There is a substantial difference between a high school scholarship and a full time salary of a major symphony orchestra.
ThePousane
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:49 am

Re: Big Valve

Post by ThePousane »

hyperbolica wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:51 pm
ThePousane wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:30 pm It seems like my best option is to leave and just go on to STEM. I plan on doing some sort of engineering and have a loads of courses such as chemistry, physics, calculus, and stats I need to get through, all while this situation is going on. The sooner I leave, the more time I have to focus on what I’ll need for college I suppose.
Don't try to solve your arguments with your teacher by asking some bunch of people on the internet. I assume you have parents?

Nothing adds up here, there's obviously something else going on. - please don't explain it, just talk to your parents about it.

If you can't talk to your teacher, talk to your parents. I can't believe you're coming to the internet to get this kind of advice.
My parents have spoken with the teacher lately, however they get the same response I got. As of a week ago, they stand behind my decision to leave the scholarship, teacher, studio, etc.
sungfw wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:04 am ThePousane, thank you for taking the time to provide more background information on the valve and the leadpipe issues. Based on your description of the larger context, and in the absence of a countervailing explanation by your teacher, it certainly appears that your teacher is being unreasonable in this situation.
ThePousane wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:30 pm Another thing you said was how “wouldn't like it if a third party to post a very incomplete, report of something you said or did that reflected badly on your character and competence.” The thing is, I’m not saying the teacher is bad in character or incompetent at all.
Please note that I did not accuse you of doing so, nor did I take issue with your presentation of the interaction with your teacher in your original post. What I do take issue with is quickness and seeming ease with which others who, possessing only the barest skeleton of the story, were willing to attribute your teacher's stance to malfeasance. So while your post—or, more precisely, some of the responses to your post—was the occasion for my screed, it was not the cause of it. I could have made that more clear, or at least have communicated that to you via PM, from the outset, and apologize to you for not doing so.

In fact, I'm impressed by the underlying composure of your articulation of what must be an incredibly frustrating and aggravating situation. Nevertheless, I stand by my assertion that none of us should automatically or reflexively assume a claim or assertion made in an internet forum (or in any other medium, for that matter, but especially in an internet forum)—no matter how eloquent—to be the gospel truth, and casually impugn the individual or institution in question solely on that basis. (Yes, we all inevitably filter claims and assertions through our own experiences and our personal and political beliefs, and we all suffer from confirmation bias, but that is not an adequate excuse to assume the worst about someone—especially someone whom we don't know—when it costs us little, if anything (save, perhaps, our confidence in the infallibility of our judgement), to grant to others the benefit of doubt we want others to grant to us.)

One last comment:
Finally, to your point on ensemble playing/employment, I have yet to play the horn in an ensemble or see my teacher again (due to COVID-19) and I am not employed by the teacher, as others have said. The student-teacher relationship is only bounded by a scholarship, which I am allowed to drop at anytime, which also leads to another thought.
While you are not employed by the teacher in the ordinary sense of being remunerated (paid to play) for your performance, in a broad sense, you are employed by the teacher, in that you are remunerated, principally in the form of knowledge and experience (which are the primary currency of educational transactions) as well as in the form of the scholarship, to be a member of his studio. (Certainly, for income tax purposes, scholarships are classified as income, and subject to income tax (though uses of scholarship moneys, such as tuition and fees, required books and supplies, etc.), are tax exempt.) The conditions attached to receiving the scholarship, such as being a member of his studio, satisfactory academic progress, performance requirements, etc., are, for all intents and purposes, "conditions" of your (continuing) employment.

On possibly related, note: for budgetary reasons, a neighbor—a saxophonist with a DMA in performance, former director of marching bands (2007-2013) and adjunct faculty member at a nearby univ since 2003—and another long-serving adjunct in the department, were recently "constructively discharged" through a combination of the music dept: a) admissions committee declining to admit new students (for the second consecutive year) to their respecive studios; b) reducing both the number and monetary value of scholarships offered to their students for the '20-'21 academic year (and leaving them to break the news to their current students, both undergrad and grad); c) offering them a contract for '20-21 that amounted to a 67% reduction in their current hourly pay rate; AND informing them of all of this in an email (then acted surprised and hurt when they turned the contracts down).

That may not be directly germane to your situation, but if your teacher's studio is affiliated with an educational instution rather than a private studio, he may be under pressure from the administration to reduce the size of his studio (or there may be pressure to reduce or eliminate the music program entirely) to ease the financial burden. If that is the case, his otherwise seemingly inexplicable stance may be a clumsy way of by inducing students to decide to leave "of their own accord" in order to avoid having to have the difficult, awkward face-to-face conversation with students that they are—to use a sports analogy—"being cut" (That doesn't in any way justify or excuse it, if that is the case; but, having been in both positions (employer/teacher and employee/student) at various times and in various contexts, I can understand why someone might opt to go about it in that way.)
Thank you for elaborating on my posts as well as my previous comments, it helps with looking at the bigger picture. However, let me explain one crucial point about the scholarship, the teacher did not give me the scholarship. With the scholarship, I auditioned for a panel of various musicians to see if I was qualified to get it. After being accepted, they connected me with a teacher immediately (because at the time I didn’t have one). That is also the reason why the head of the scholarship program told my parents and I that the scholarship was for me and if I had problems with the teacher, we should let them know. The day after this problem arose, the head of the program was the first person I talked to about the situation. When the program manager heard about it, the person immediately called my teacher, to which the person got an answer and explained the problem. After the call, the manager told me that the staff would try to find a solution. The next time I saw my teacher, the manager brought a version of my horn with a rotor, but had to leave to do something else. The problem is, my teacher thought I was trying to undermine him by wanting to keep my current horn and when I told him about my preference, the teacher said it doesn’t matter what my preferences were. After the session, I told my parents and they were not very happy with the teacher’s response and actions towards me. The following day, they asked the manager for a teacher change. When my teacher heard this, the teacher was furious, probably because the teacher thought I was just trying to go around again. I was lectured about why I got to study with the teacher and how it was a privilege etc., but this is where I thought to myself that this is just going to be messy situation if this continues. I told the teacher, as well as my parents and the manager afterwards, that I would follow the instructions given.

The situation has drained so much time and could likely drain more time and money than either of us want. Both the ideas of switching to what my teacher recommends I play (which I do not prefer to my current horn) or finding a new teacher that can prepare me for auditions in a short amount of time are most likely not the best options. Both paths are unclear in where they lead, and because essentially a good portion of my life depends on the decision I will make in the coming weeks, I think it is best to make the logical choice of dropping both options and moving on. This seems like a more secure option as stated by Matt K and BGuttman.
Posaunus
Posts: 3481
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:54 pm
Location: California

Re: Big Valve

Post by Posaunus »

ThePousane wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:55 am I think it is best to make the logical choice of dropping both options and moving on.
Good luck Pousane.

But whatever you do, don't drop the trombone or your enthusiasm for music. There are many fine teachers in your area, who are not affiliated with high-pressure programs such as the one you have been participating in, who would be happy to coach you. And lots of ways other than majoring in music or performance to enjoy what you clearly love.

Keep playing, if only for your own enjoyment (and your family's) until you find an encouraging (and less intense and authoritarian) trombone teacher. Once you do, I predict you will soar! And, like many of us on TromboneChat who are not full-time professional musicians, you will have a lifetime of enjoyment making and listening to music. :clever:
8parktoollover
Posts: 204
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:44 am
Location: Modiin Israel

Re: Big Valve

Post by 8parktoollover »

It seems unfair that one person's bad attitide about something insignifigent is taking such a big part in a major life changing decision.
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